Clean sheet of paper, what would you build?
05-01-2008, 02:20 PM
#11
Hi Donzi,
I have an AW 304, but I also have other intercoolers from other automotive projects in my garage. I have a setup from Laminova that can extract heat at 88-90% efficiency and less than 1 psi pressure drop across the IC core based on the flow rate of the coolant, and the storage capacity of the resirvoir.
The M1 is rated at 1400 CFM at 50,000 rpm with a 3.05:1 step up gear. At a corresponding redline of 6,500RPM, the engine:SC pulley ratio would have to be about 8.25:1 to get the 1400 CFM. I will eventually use the Laminova setup, but I have to first test the pressure drop through the entire system. In addition, there is the consideration of the plenum volume and runner volume, and where the IC is situated in the path, as the heat can be added back into the runner if the distance from the IC exit to the intake valve is too long..
The laminova setup has never been done on a boat before as far as I know. many cars use them in the race world.
www.laminova.com
These guys below have a similar setup with an M1, and gain an extra 70-100HP with a (IMHO) less efficient design.
http://www.rtechperformance.com/techinfo.html
There are very abrupt turns, angles, and other flow restrictions..
Anyway, hope it helps.. And keep in mind I do not want more than 900HP. The motor (588 CI) is already good for at least 675HP. Short shop math tells me that to get 225HP I would need to increase the absolute pressure .33 Bar, (increase the air mass 33% and fuel as well.) this is not very difficult to do with a small compressor. It's all a question of balance.
Richard
Richard
I have an AW 304, but I also have other intercoolers from other automotive projects in my garage. I have a setup from Laminova that can extract heat at 88-90% efficiency and less than 1 psi pressure drop across the IC core based on the flow rate of the coolant, and the storage capacity of the resirvoir.
The M1 is rated at 1400 CFM at 50,000 rpm with a 3.05:1 step up gear. At a corresponding redline of 6,500RPM, the engine:SC pulley ratio would have to be about 8.25:1 to get the 1400 CFM. I will eventually use the Laminova setup, but I have to first test the pressure drop through the entire system. In addition, there is the consideration of the plenum volume and runner volume, and where the IC is situated in the path, as the heat can be added back into the runner if the distance from the IC exit to the intake valve is too long..
The laminova setup has never been done on a boat before as far as I know. many cars use them in the race world.
www.laminova.com
These guys below have a similar setup with an M1, and gain an extra 70-100HP with a (IMHO) less efficient design.
http://www.rtechperformance.com/techinfo.html
There are very abrupt turns, angles, and other flow restrictions..
Anyway, hope it helps.. And keep in mind I do not want more than 900HP. The motor (588 CI) is already good for at least 675HP. Short shop math tells me that to get 225HP I would need to increase the absolute pressure .33 Bar, (increase the air mass 33% and fuel as well.) this is not very difficult to do with a small compressor. It's all a question of balance.
Richard
Richard
That's cool. It sounds like you have done some homework. I like seeing folks do things their own way.
Post pics when you get the intercooler done. My AW 504 is supposed to be a decent cooler but I have always felt that it could be done better for cheaper. I have seen some of rtech's stuff and thought that they are on to something.
05-01-2008, 02:40 PM
#12
We used a 502 mag as a base with a 540 crank. It has Big Brodie heads, custom cam, JE blower pistons, 64 lb injectors, a MEFI-4, 2 bar map sensor, Procharger M-3, a custom oil pan and a bunch of goodies. Eddie did a good bit of work on the oil passages and intake runners. If you look at the parts listing on Eddie's motors, you will see bunch of what is going in. It is not as exotic as his big power motors but should be pretty stout. Like I said, I am not a builder so I won't go into the specifics. Eddie has spent a good bit of time educating me on what he is doing and why but I prefer not to quote specifics since I could easily mistate something. If Eddie is around maybe he will give some more details.
Like Blue242, I am not going for huge power as I want my drive to live. I want a big 800+ hp engine with good reliability.
This is the first real custom engine I have ever had anyone build for me. It has been a real eye opener. A couple of years ago I could not really understand why you don't just get a crate motor, slap on a blower and big cam then go for it. I had a feeling that it was not that simple but I did not really know why. I have learned a pretty good bit of why in the last six months and have a new found respect of what goes into bigger power motors and why it costs what it does.
I will hopefully have some good pics to post soon.
Last edited by ZXXX Donzi; 05-01-2008 at 02:52 PM.
05-01-2008, 03:59 PM
#13
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Hi Donzi,
Thank you. Yes, I have done a lot of homework on engine building. I looked around at many places, and was appalled at what was being presented as engineering. I then decided to do it all myself.
I will post pixx when I am all done, and some more in process as well. Like you mentioned, I want to keep my driveability, and have a big power motor without blowing up the drive. I like to sometimes troll around, and in addition, when I launch the boat, I don't want a handful that I cannot control around the dock, and no wake zones..
You are corret in your assessment that most people go the other way.. I've seen it many many times. Even some big name tuners.
Anyway, I am also looking at a Ram Jet combination to adapt to my 588. I just got the HP500 stuff, but I may sell it off, as it may be too restrictive with my cam, as the resonant frequency of the intake valve closing is not good for the design of and the length of the HP500 runners. Therefore, the intake charge may suffer some reversion, and that will cause problems in the fueling, low speed operation, and at high speed operation, who knows..
I could just get a smaller cam, but I like the cam I have now. In addition, the HP500/525 intakes I have were not designed to be as optimal for a bigger motor.. The Ram Jet was made for the bigger motors.. Lots more to do, so I may just bolt on a carb in 2 weeks so I can get the boat off dry dock, and fuss with the EFI a bit more. Don't want it on the boat, and then can't use it.
The other thing, is the MEFI controller. I will want dual Oxy Sensors, and some other functions, and may go to a custom setup.
Motec is very expensive, and I think I can get a similar solution for less $$$$$$$, so I am researching the tunability of the MEFI controller software, and what other Inputs & outputs can be had from the MEFI-3 or MEFI-4 units.
See my other posts in the Formula forum on a 588 Gen VI build on a 242LS.
Good luck with your build as well..!
Have a good one,
Richard
Thank you. Yes, I have done a lot of homework on engine building. I looked around at many places, and was appalled at what was being presented as engineering. I then decided to do it all myself.
I will post pixx when I am all done, and some more in process as well. Like you mentioned, I want to keep my driveability, and have a big power motor without blowing up the drive. I like to sometimes troll around, and in addition, when I launch the boat, I don't want a handful that I cannot control around the dock, and no wake zones..
You are corret in your assessment that most people go the other way.. I've seen it many many times. Even some big name tuners.
Anyway, I am also looking at a Ram Jet combination to adapt to my 588. I just got the HP500 stuff, but I may sell it off, as it may be too restrictive with my cam, as the resonant frequency of the intake valve closing is not good for the design of and the length of the HP500 runners. Therefore, the intake charge may suffer some reversion, and that will cause problems in the fueling, low speed operation, and at high speed operation, who knows..
I could just get a smaller cam, but I like the cam I have now. In addition, the HP500/525 intakes I have were not designed to be as optimal for a bigger motor.. The Ram Jet was made for the bigger motors.. Lots more to do, so I may just bolt on a carb in 2 weeks so I can get the boat off dry dock, and fuss with the EFI a bit more. Don't want it on the boat, and then can't use it.
The other thing, is the MEFI controller. I will want dual Oxy Sensors, and some other functions, and may go to a custom setup.
Motec is very expensive, and I think I can get a similar solution for less $$$$$$$, so I am researching the tunability of the MEFI controller software, and what other Inputs & outputs can be had from the MEFI-3 or MEFI-4 units.
See my other posts in the Formula forum on a 588 Gen VI build on a 242LS.
Good luck with your build as well..!
Have a good one,
Richard
05-01-2008, 09:09 PM
#14
Charter Member #601
Charter MemberThread Starter
Richard,
Have you look at the Megasquirt? I am running one now on my NA motor and was planning on Procharging it when I decided to start over. The MS is very reasonably priced and a learning experience.. and although it wasnt a plug and play, I believe I have it working very well on my motor now.
Dick
Have you look at the Megasquirt? I am running one now on my NA motor and was planning on Procharging it when I decided to start over. The MS is very reasonably priced and a learning experience.. and although it wasnt a plug and play, I believe I have it working very well on my motor now.
Dick
05-02-2008, 01:51 PM
#15
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Hi Dick,
If I blow this drive, I will surely call you..!
As far as Megasquirt, I am looking at that, Motec, Haltech, AEM, MSD, Electromotvie and Autronic. My cousin is a racer, and has lots of experience programming the Motec, Haltech, and AEM's and can maybe get me a deal.
However, another skunkworks option using 2 stock GM ECM's is also a possibility. A buddy of mine did it before on a car, and an airboat using the GM controllers. It was really slick.. I am trying to convince him to help me. It involves using Tunercat, or Tunerpro, or the like, and reprogramming the ECM to my desired spec. I am in the exploratory stage, but will let you know how it turns out. I will probably ditch the HP500 intake, and go with the RamJet on the 588. It would be great for the 454 I'll be pulling out though. Hmmmm...
Any stand alone is a bit of work, unless you have a good base map, and understand how to use the software...! When you go from N/A to pressurized, things change quickly, and can be complex.... I have found the key is getting the engine load interpretation correct as a function of all the sensor info and correcting for barometric pressure. Anyway, too much engineering speak for today...! I'll let you know what happens..
I think I will definitely be going with a carb first, and then once the details of the EFI are resolved, I will bolt it on..
Regards,
Richard
If I blow this drive, I will surely call you..!
As far as Megasquirt, I am looking at that, Motec, Haltech, AEM, MSD, Electromotvie and Autronic. My cousin is a racer, and has lots of experience programming the Motec, Haltech, and AEM's and can maybe get me a deal.
However, another skunkworks option using 2 stock GM ECM's is also a possibility. A buddy of mine did it before on a car, and an airboat using the GM controllers. It was really slick.. I am trying to convince him to help me. It involves using Tunercat, or Tunerpro, or the like, and reprogramming the ECM to my desired spec. I am in the exploratory stage, but will let you know how it turns out. I will probably ditch the HP500 intake, and go with the RamJet on the 588. It would be great for the 454 I'll be pulling out though. Hmmmm...
Any stand alone is a bit of work, unless you have a good base map, and understand how to use the software...! When you go from N/A to pressurized, things change quickly, and can be complex.... I have found the key is getting the engine load interpretation correct as a function of all the sensor info and correcting for barometric pressure. Anyway, too much engineering speak for today...! I'll let you know what happens..
I think I will definitely be going with a carb first, and then once the details of the EFI are resolved, I will bolt it on..
Regards,
Richard
05-02-2008, 09:22 PM
#16
Gold Member
I do not know much about engine building..I would probably pick one of these or a 1075 Merc.
http://www.sterlingperformance.org/racingengines.htm
http://www.sterlingperformance.org/racingengines.htm
05-04-2008, 12:11 AM
#17
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Bill(Donzi ZXXX),
You did a pretty good job of decribing the parts. You want a job.
Like Bill said, we are only looking for 800-825 hp. If I wanted to make any more than that, I would have replaced the intake. That is why I did not extrude hone it. Between the time ( 2-3 months) to get it done and the cost, I didn't see where it was worth it or nesessary. Like I said, I would just replace it first with the Holley set up I use on the N/A motors. However, I did do some port work and shorten the runners. I also had to modify and drill the manifold and fuel rail to accept different injectors. It now has 63 lb Mototron injectors. It's not quite done, but here are a few pics. Should dyno in a week or so.
Eddie.
A few before pics
You did a pretty good job of decribing the parts. You want a job.
Like Bill said, we are only looking for 800-825 hp. If I wanted to make any more than that, I would have replaced the intake. That is why I did not extrude hone it. Between the time ( 2-3 months) to get it done and the cost, I didn't see where it was worth it or nesessary. Like I said, I would just replace it first with the Holley set up I use on the N/A motors. However, I did do some port work and shorten the runners. I also had to modify and drill the manifold and fuel rail to accept different injectors. It now has 63 lb Mototron injectors. It's not quite done, but here are a few pics. Should dyno in a week or so.
Eddie.
A few before pics
