Synthetic Motor Oil or NOT ???
 

I know this forum has lots of info on the subject but I still don't have a feel for which motor oil to use for my app.
I have a pair of HP500 carb engines which the previous owner used 15w50 Mobile1 in it religiously.When I dissambled the engines I found a roller lifter with a flat spot on it.As of now I have a fresh pair of 557 strokers @675hp with hydrolic roller cam setup with higher lift cam than stock .My oil temps run a little high at 230*with 3" coolers.I really would like some real experiences with roller/cam engines that have been dissambled that have been run with syn crankcase oil.HP500'S if possible.
Please no hearsay aka: "friend of a friend stuff" or I heard this.....
Bottom line is:
Is it OK to run synthetic oil with roller cam setup?

Dennis

Long editorial short. If you change oil often, don't waste your money. One is as good as the other in terms of lubricating properties especially today's quality oils. If you're bad about getting around to changing it, then synthetic will not break down as fast and subsequently last longer.

Synthetics in outdrives may be better because of their higher tolerance to heat. But it would need to be marine tolerant in terms of resisting the mixing of water with the oil causing it to lose it's lubricating properties.

Check it out...Sterling and other builders send engines out with M-1 15W-50 in the pan. I heard Teague uses Amsoil. Volvo is 100% Synthetic now. Mercury has gone to a Semi-syn.

Sorry to hear you have a flat spot but that can happen with any oil.

If you decide to go with conventional oil I suggest you use Valvoline VR-1 maybe a 40 or 50 wt or 20W-50...lots of ZDDP an awesome conventional oil. I know a couple racing teams that use 60 wt and change after every race.

True.. ;)

We have run Non-Synthetic oil for over 50 years, I wouldn't run it in my lawn mower. Pennzoil racing grade . That's just our choice, it works.

You are refering to a specific Brand and Type of conventional oil

There are a number of both conventional and non-conventional oils I do not care much for....it's all in the base stock and additive package.

I do however as an fyi have a Lawn Tractor with an 18 HP V-Twin that has near 500 hours of perfect service record and after the first 1/2 season switched to Mobil-1 15W-50. A 9HP snowblower as well with a Honda engine gets 5W-30 Amsoil....so it does work in small engines.:D

Penzoil Racing has a lot of ZDDP and it is a parafinic oil....some don't care for parafinic oil...as long as the parafin is stable you are good to go. If it becomes unstable (water/gasoline/alcohol/water etc) get into the oil then it simply forms a gel as it chemically tries to reform carbon/carbon bonds back to the parafin wax it used to be in "another life". I have personally witnessed this in the bottle and oil pan. It can really breed the perfect stage for lots of sludge. If you change the oil frequently your chances of this happening are lessened.

All my cars..boats...trucks always on Mobil-1/Amsoil or Redline with real good success.

I also used Castrol GTX 20W-50 for a while and it was a real good oil too.


I respect your position.

I run syn. in everything, even the gen in mt gibson...that thing sometimes runs for 12-15 hrs strait, my feeling it adds lfe and H/P and moat race teams do as well..Rob

To answer your question is it ok to run synthetic with a roller. YES you can. Almost all new over head valves engines are roller and synthetic is preferred from the factories.

I've used nothing but synthetic in everything I own for 30 years and wouldn't use anything else. That's everything from lawn equipment to a 15-vehicle commercial fleet. Plus quite a number of boats. I've never had an oil-related failure and I get rid of absolutely worn out vehicles with amazingly well-running engines- some of the medium-duty diesels in the 750k/mi+ range- long past expected lifespans.

On racing oils- they're made for racing, not pleasure boating. They provide amazing protection for operating the engine, but they're intended to be drained & replaced when you're done with the race. Boats can be stored for weeks on end and then there's the water-in-oil issue. Racing oils don't like that sort of stuff.

True...many Racing Oils do not have much of a dispercency or detergency package. They are made for that one time Race and Drain.

The whole 9 yds in Racing is flow...flow...flow....especially in tight turns.

As far as additives go ZDDP and Moly to reduce friction.

Does the conventional oil Valvoline VR-1 fall into the category of a race oil? Currently, using 40w and change every 20 hours. Thanks.

I don't think your lifter failure was due to oil, either a bad lifter or weak valve spring causing it to bound on the cam,
Rob

You need to change your avatar, The bright colors make me dizzy.:evilb:

Please don't change the avatar ... but you could remove the bright colours.

lol... Yes but if the colors were removed the dizzyness would stop, but the horniness would begin... lol :D :evilb::party-smiley-004: J

:drink:

What are the test results on this brand :

http://www.syntheticwarehouse.com/am...esel_15W40.htm

That is what I've been using upon recommendation from the guy who built my engines. I change the oil every 25 hours.

Thanks in advance,
Craig

Some of us are able to be dizzy and horny at the same time.

Not an exact application but my brother and I both at the time had the same model Harley's - both Fat Boys and 80ci. I ran synthetic and he ran conventional oil. The oil temperature gauge in my bike was almost 20 degrees cooler than his during a road trip he and I took together.

lol.. :D:drink:

I have an '04 SE and a '06Ultra.I run V-Twin an the SE and it quieted down somewhat and the Ultra is a 95" with 251 camshaft.I recently put 20w50 Amsoil in it along with Amsoil gearlube in the gearbox.I know that the topend is quieter and trans is smoother..
I had a pair of 454's in a 35 lightning redone with Crane 741 cam and ran M1 for a long time with no problems.Probably was a lifter problem with this HP500 engine.I have heard the rants about running synthetic in roller/high lift cams but would really like to see proof of failure.

Why Cams fail:

1. Lobe wearA) Incorrect break-in lubricant.
Use only the Moly Paste, Part Number 99002

B) Correct break-in procedure.
After the correct break-in lubricant is applied to the cam and lifters, fill the crankcase with fresh non-synthetic oil...such as Valvoline VR-1 20W-50..then synthetic at the first change... Prime the oil system with a priming tool and an electric drill so that all oil passages and the oil filter are full of oil. Pre-set the ignition timing and prime the fuel system. Fill the cooling system. Start the engine. The engine should start quickly and run between 1500 and 3000 rpm.

C) Spring pressure
Normal recommended spring seat pressure for most mild street-type flat tappet cams is between 85 to 105 lbs. More radical street and race applications may use valve spring seat pressure between 105 to 130 lbs. For street hydraulic roller cams, seat pressure should range from 105 to 140 lb. Spring seat pressure for mechanical street roller cams should not exceed 150 lb. Race roller cams with high lift and spring pressure are not recommended for recreational use, because of a lack of oil splash onto the cam at low speed running to help cool the cam and lubricate the lifters. This high spring pressure causes the heat created at the cam to be transferred to the roller wheel, resulting in its early failure.

D) Mechanical interference.
There are many factors that can cause mechanical interference.

(1a) Spring coil bind: This is when all of the coils of the spring (outside, inside or flat damper) contact each other before the full lift of the valve. We recommend that the spring you are using be capable of traveling at least .060" more than the valve lift of the cam from its assembled height.

(2) Retainer to seal/ valve guide boss interference. You need at least .060" clearance between the bottom of the retainer and the seal or the top of the valve guide when the valve is at full lift.

(3) Valve to piston interference: this occurs when a change in cam specs. (i.e.; lift, duration or centerline) is enough to cause this mechanical interference. Also: increased valve size, surfacing the block and/or cylinder head may cause this problem. If you have any doubt, piston to valve clearance should be checked. Minimum recommended clearance: .080" intake and .100" exhaust.

(4) Rocker arm slot to stud interference: As you increase valve lift, the rocker arm swings farther on its axis. Therefore the slot in the bottom of the rocker arm may run out of travel, and the end of the slot will contact the stud and stop the movement of the rocker arm. The slot in the rocker arm must be able to travel at least .060" more than the full lift of the valve. Some engine families, like small block Chevrolet, have stamped steel rocker arms available in long and extra long slot versions for this purpose.

2) Distributor gear wear.The main cause for distributor gear wear is the use of high volume or high-pressure oil pumps. We don?t recommend the use of these types of oil pumps. If you do run these types of oil pumps, you can expect short life of the cam and distributor gears, especially for low speed running, in street type applications. If you must run these types of oil pumps, you can increase the life of the gears by adding more oil flow over the gear area to help cool off the point of contact.

3) Camshaft end play. Some engines have a thrust plate to control the forward and backward movement of the cam. The recommended end play on these types of engines is between .003" to .008". Many factors may cause this end play to be changed.

4) Broken dowel pins or keys.
The dowel pin or Woodruff key does not drive the cam; the torque of the timing gear bolt, or bolts, against the front of the cam drives the cam.

5) Broken camA broken cam is usually caused by the cam being hit by a connecting rod, or other rotating parts of the engine coming loose and hitting the cam. When this happens, the cam will usually break in more than two-pieces. Sometimes the cam will break in two pieces after a short time of use because of a crack or fracture in the cam due to rough handling during shipping, or some time before installation. If a cam becomes cracked or fractured due to rough handling, it will generally not be straight.

I spoke with a high end builder and he agreed...high and lift are racing cams that need high RPM's for good oil flow.

Using the set-up for extended periods at low RPM causes oil starvation and flat topping.

Makes sense to me.

GM doesn't spend the extra $$ on mobil 1 for the corvettes factory fill because it isn't better.

My quick story of why I like Mobil 1. I bought a bike that had been drag raced. The prev. owner installed a heavy duty clutch, ran it a couple times then quit due to medical reasons. I got it after it sat a couple years. I drained the water from the gas tank, cleaned the carbs, and changed the oil with conventional oil. The clutch slipped. Put a couple hundred miles on it with no change. I remembered he had mentioned running Mobil 1 (a motorcycle clutch is oil cooled). I took the clutch apart and cleaned the friction plates with brake clean. Clutch grabbed extremely hard from then on. The Mobil 1 was making the plates too slippery even after changing the oil to conventional. Seems like a good lubricant to me!

Does the Valvoline VR-1 20w50 have any detergent properties ?Being that it's a racing oil I'm thinking that it doesn't.I don't have a problem with that as none of my engines have ever had a problem with sludge buildup......:D

They claim the oil reduces friction thereby decreasing deposiits...fyi ZDDP 1300 ppm

The Valvoline VR-1 Racing Motor Oil
• The #1 selling Racing Oil of all time and race track proven.
• Protects against high-temperature deposits for a cleaner engine.
• ZDDP additive provides tough anti-wear protection.
• Enhanced with fricition modifier to improve horsepower.
• Formulated with enhanced anti-foam system.

Here is the spec sheet..

http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR...otor%20Oil.pdf

What oil would you guys rec for merc 525 engines??

I was just treated to an excellent presentation by Bill Maxwell of Exxon/Mobil, who is considered by many to be "the father of Mobil One". His experience goes back over 40 years, including some mistakes that were made along the way. Amazing stories. The key points of his talk:

1. Rather than sift through tons of crude oil looking for the molecule(s) you want, and having to settle for some you don't want as well, synthetics give you the ability to create only the molecule(s) you want - and nothing else.
2. Mobil One has learned (sometimes the hard way) that additives that work in mineral-based oils rarely work the same way (if at all!) in a synthetic. Synthetics require their own, highly-specialized additive packages. Latecomers to the synthetic game are still learning this lesson.
3. For marine use, there is no better oil in the world than Mobil One V-Twin 20w50. It is basically the toughest oil on the planet, and perfectly suited for hard-working marine engines.
4. Racing oils such as Red Line and Royal Purple can be deadly to engines (and outdrives!) that do not see extended periods of high temperature (230+ oil temp), or are stored for any period of time (even just a few weeks). These are almost pure ester-based oils, and any water or condensation present in them will cause the esters to break down into their original components - alcohol and ACID!
5. Mobil One SHC (Sythetic HydroCarbon) grease is fine for any marine application, and is waterproof.
6. Mobil One oil filters are manufactured (by Champion filters) to higher standards than even OEM filters in terms of both filtration ability AND minimal flow restriction.

I'm a believer. I've seen Mobil One 75w90 come out of a transmission intact, even after it got so hot that it melted the solder out of a scavenge screen.

What type of synthetic gear lube are you talking about? And were do you get it.

I will have to change drive oil shortly. I have been using Royal Purple 75w-90. Is Mobil 1 synthetic drive oil better? I usually just change once per season.

It has it ..............calcium.

Ken

The basestock in M-1 V-Twin is amazing with a FP of 518*F.
It's additive package is amazing with ZDDP levels of 1600 ppm. Ouutstanding detergency and it's is built for engines that require long termed stoarage.

Still my favorite for engines that can handle a cst@100*C of 22...it's actually close to a "55" wt oil. Fine for most any offshore application.

I still like Merc's HP gearbox lube...and might give M-1 75W-90 a try.

You were the one who turned me on to V-Twin 20w50. I had cases of it here at work available at no charge, and was using M1 15w50 instead. This was the oil recommended by Innovation/Volvo Penta for my 540/600's. Since I switched to V-Twin, I've noticed significantly more consistent oil pressures. Thank you!

I sent this thread's link to Bill Maxwell. Maybe he'll comment....

For a big-block offshore engine I don't think anything can out do M-1 V-twin. There is enough experience on this board using the product to prove it too.

Does the v twin come in 5 qt jugs at walmart? Nice cheap way to get the 15w50.

Kendall 20w-50

"Kendall GT-1 High Performance Motor Oil is a high-quality engine
oil specially designed for use in gasoline engines operating under
high-temperature or severe driving conditions, as well as in
competition engines and high-performance street engines. It is
formulated to provide excellent wear protection, to minimize the
formation of sludge and varnish, and to resist viscosity and
thermal breakdown even in severe service. It also protects
against rust and bearing corrosion, and has good foam
resistance. The SAE 20W-50 viscosity grade is fortified with
additional zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) additive to provide
enhanced wear protection and oxidation resistance for use in the
most demanding applications. It is particularly recommended for
use in turbocharged engines and in high-performance engines."

Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy!:cool:

It's a good oil. However, note that the cst at 100*C is 18 vs. V-Twin M-1 which is 22. If your oil pressures are fine at full temps. stick with it.


GT-1® High Performance Motor Oil
Typical Properties
SAE Grade 10W-40 20W-50
Density, g/cm3 @ 15.6°C (60°F) 0.873 0.883
Density, lbs/gal @ 15.6°C (60°F) 7.27 7.35
Color, ASTM D1500 3.0 3.5
Flash Point (COC), °C (°F) 227 (441) 230 (446)
Pour Point, °C (°F) -33 (-27) -30 (-22)
Viscosity,
cSt @ 40°C 108 175
cSt @ 100°C 15.3 18.6
SUS @ 100°F 559 913
SUS @ 210°F 81.9 94.9
Viscosity Index 150 120
Cold Cranking Viscosity, cP 6,600 6,600
@ (°C) (-25) (-15)
High-Temp/High-Shear Viscosity, cP @ 150°C 3.9 4.8
Sulfated Ash, ASTM D874, wt % 0.94 0.98
Total Base Number (TBN), ASTM D2896 7.8 7.8
Phosphorus, wt % 0.077 0.108
Zinc, wt % 0.085 0.119
1080 ppm of Phos
1190 ppm of Zinc




Compared to Valvoline VR-1 conventional...Zinc-1300ppm Phos 1200


Comapred to M-1 Silver and Goldcap= 1200 ppm Zinc and 1200 ppm Phos

Compare to M-1 V-twin which has 1600 ppm of both Zinc and Phos. ...gotta love overkilll
Compare Redline 1400ppm Zinc and Phos

Most Amsoil Products (V-twin is higher) are around 1150 ppm of zinc and phos

Mobil-1 V-Twin...Kinematic, cSt @ 100°C is really 17.7

V-Twin $11.50/qt
Kendall $3.95/qt

Adds up when I go through 22 qts. and then some for top offs.

If Mobil V-Twin is 22 cST it is not a 50. The max spec for a 50 is 21.89 cST.
They would never overbuild on the viscosity.

Ken

As I re-read this thread...the V-Twin is a good oil, but for the expense I use the Kendall for I change it at 20-25hrs anyway.