Lifter Valley Screen Kits??
 

I am wondering how many guys run the screen kits and if there is any draw backs to it? Do they hold back too much oil in the valley or do they limit oil drip on the cam?? Anything that might cause a problem that anyone can think of?

Thanks!
Dick

don't think they hold back much oil at all, I do not run them in my boat, but I do in my top sportsman race car, but we run much more aggressive cam/springs and are more prone to breakage compaired to the much milder boat cams...Rob

I Bought some pick ups from theses guys and they sent an info pack that included some research they did on the subject. I no longer have it handy but I recall they made a strong argument against them.

Might want to contact them on the subject.

http://www.titanspeed.com/index1.htm


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I run screen kits in the marine engine packages. I use a courser screen the the Moroso kit, only to allow more oil back faster.

There you have it from an authority.:drink:

Had them installed in my 500s when rebuilt on the advise of my builder. He has a long history with race engines and highly advised installing them. Never a problem and always a little insurance policy. Do the magnets as well, they do pick up chit over a seasons running.

Oh hell, I am just jealous that because I run Fords, This would be a totally one-off custom fabrication instead of an off the shelf part like you guys have access to.:cool:

2112,
I took a look at the Titan web site. They recommend not using the screen for reasons of drain back restrictions.. interesting. Thanks for the tip.. I may call them and see what they say.

I guess my concern is, where does the cam and lifter wheels get there lubrication from?? Say the wheel surface is destroyed but the bearing the wheel rides on is ok.. Is there suppose to be a supply of oil that gets between the two (cam lobe and wheel) to protect it??
Thanks!
Dick

we run them in our blown 557s

I think a point to be brought out would be what type of cam we are running. I feel safe to assume roller, but hydraulic or solid seems to be a huge difference. Obviously, a hydraulic doesnt not see the severity of use, simply by spring pressure, that a solid would see. That has to be a hell of a squeeze when the roller goes over the nose of a solid cam with 600-700 lbs on it, not to mention some 6000 times a minute.:eek:

I for one am thinking the extra oil those screens hold back, even if just a little, can only help lifter and cam life.

You spin your motor to 12000rpm? :eek: :evilb:

Talking roller cams here, solid and hydraulic. Where does the cam lobe get it's lubrication from anyway?

Haxby.. we all spin our motors to 12krpm.. :)

I also heard of the return restriction. In fact, someone told me a story of them having one motor with screens and another without and they started loosing lifters in the one with screens. Lube I believe comes from upper end oil, through the drainbacks, from the crank once you have the rpm going (then again we try to scrape the crank and remove that don't we), and lastly from what ever the lifter can pass through the body to the side and bearing axle if you have the option. Problem with solid roller I have heard is failure is mcaused somewhat from prolonged idle periods and obviously spring pressures. At idle I guess the amount of oil going to the cam through the drain backs is not sufficient? I went to KE's spray bars and they seemed to have helped dramatically.??

bob,
are your spray bars in the lifter valley?
I was told that most times the bearings in the wheels go bad from prolonged idling. But in my case the face of the wheel was torn up. Looked like you ran it down a cement driveway. The bearings were in good condition.
I know Comp sells a tool to scratch a line in the lifter bore to aid oiling to the cam. Maybe that would be a good thing in this situation..

Thanks! Keep the ideas coming!
Dick

Yeah, you got me there. 6000 @ the crank is 3000 @ the cam.

Dick,
Was it just 1 lifter wheel with an issue? Did the cam lobe also get beat up? Any spring pressure issues? If only one lifter is damaged and the spring pressure is good, just a defective lifter wheel? If multiple lifter wheels have damage, both intake and exhaust lifter wheel damage? Also, what push rods are you using?
Just thinking...

I always use screens,be careful not to clog the screen up with epoxy when installing them,I use a better epoxy then the crap that comes with the kits then poke each hole in screen with something to ensure they don't get clogged up,Smitty

Dick, here is a pic of the spray bar.

bob,
NOW I like that idea! How much room is between the bar and the block.. I assume the oil drain back is not hindered!!

Ben,
I had 5 lifters in different states of destruction. The cam lobes were also in bad shape, and different states of destruction. I was not given a specific reason. I am running high spring pressures 280/690. My motor is a Merlin Super Tall deck with 11" push rods that are 7/16" single taper, .165" wall. Friend of mine is running the same springs in his motor for years and gets 250hrs out of his lifters. Same brand as mine, but a different model. When he talked to the manufacture, they told him we had the same wheels on the lifters. Only difference being the bearing inside the wheel was different. I have some people tell me too much spring psi and some tell me not enough. Hence the question as to how does the cam lobes and wheels get oil on them.
I like that idea that bob shows.. acts like a screen to a point and adds oil to a problem area.
bob, do you have the part number for that unit? I am looking on KE's site and can not find it.. Thanks
Dick

I am running crane pro roller lifters they have a oil hole for the bearings force feed. I have three years on lifters With .750 lift cam 210 on the seat think 565 open.

Dick,
You may be plowing new ground with the valve train geometry because of the push rod length needed with Merlin Super Tall block. Does your friend use the same block? Without some input based on SpinTron testing or from someone with extensive time with this block and combination in an endurance application, you might consider reducing the # of hours between rebuilds so you miss a catastrophic failure.
How much spring pressure? Just enough to control the lifter tracking on the cam:rolleyes:

Bob,
I am very interested in that system. Looks like a nice idea. Have you run this system yet? If so, can your provide any details, like how many hours on the cam and lifters? Whose and what type of lifters? Spring pressure?

Thanks

Dick,/Vinny, I am running the isky 9385+ springs in at 215# new at the seat, probably around 195 after breakin. Using the .903" crower lifter, 66291X903H which also has the high pressure oiling, using KE's spray bar and KE's pre-luber. I am using a Canfield head which only has a 8.850 and 9.650 push rod. I did however use the 10-11" pushrods on some Big Chiefs awhile back. I do pull the lifters at 125-150 hours and they look really nice and probably could go for more. I don't have the cam specs with me but it is roughly .698" lift with a 290/302 advertised duration. Cam (Crower with the four cylinder swap) life so far is at 150 hours and the lobes look good. I have roughly 350 hours on the spray bars. Keith can make you up some spray bars, his new number is 217-415-9568.

We also use the KE spray bar and use the Isky 9385 springs but with 240# installed on the seat. The springs probably settle around 220#. My gross valve lift is .756/.735 and the cam has a mild/easy 420 lobe. I started the 2007 season with two new engines and the Crower .937 lifters. Unfortunately, in one engine, all the lifters simultaneously failed at 5800 RPM with only 12 hrs run time:eek: All (16) bearings in the rollers turned into powder with the wheels flopping on the pin. We took out a cylinder, ported head, cam, valves, etc.
The only good news to come out of this process was that Crower paid to R&R, rebuild one engine and change out their lifters in the other...but only because we had to file suit in TX to collect and they defaulted with the court.
We are now using the Jesel .937 dogbone lifters as I was unwilling to chance less expensive but untested "big" lifters from all the rest of the standard lifter suppliers after my Crower event. We now don't have our "tested" valve train as the Jesel .937 lifters are significantly lighter than the Crower. We have been checking the lash regularly in 2008 and it has been rock stable....yeh!
Maybe change springs the at 100 hrs and these engines should last my shift:drink:

Here is another KE spray bar pic

Could somebody please explain what that thing does ?

I dont have a clue ,never seen one and how hard is it to install in a bowtie blockk ,whats the cost and whats the gain of it ?

Thanks . :rolleyes:

Ben,
sorry to hear of your situation. I feel this event has been similar to my experience. I had the cam (.714/.714 275/278) in the motor for 70hrs with Schubeck lifters, .903" (roller X, with the ceramic wheels). I saw a slight loss of oil psi.. hot at idle 45, at rpm 55. Not the end of the world but less than I had prior 55/65. I pulled the motor down and found everything in good shape. I did find two lifters one with a crack and one with a piece missing from the lifter jacket, found that in the pan. The cam looked great! I attempted to contact Joe Schubeck and he is no longer in business. So I did the next best thing. Replaced the lifters with Isky Red Zones with EZ wheel .903". I was told they had not had any failures in a year of use. Well I had to replace my lifter bushings, because of the diff in lifters, pinned verses tie bar. So it all went back together, my oil psi was still not has high at it used to be but still very adequate. After 20hrs of use, I did a second or third lash and found three with .045" lash. Not good. Five lifters and cam lobes. The fault was pointed at the heavy springs. Which my buddy is running for the last 6 or 8 yrs with no problems.. similar cam profile, but only a tall deck block. He has gotten as much as 250hrs of run time on Isky lifters with needle bearings. He has had one fail after 12hrs, but chalked that up to a bad lifter.
So I figure it is the spring pressure. Well I have another friend that has a tall deck and used the same lifters on the same brand cam I used and now after 100hrs a couple of his lifter wheels looked like mine.. Like you ran then down the street on concrete. But his cam was not as damaged as mine. So I ran mine longer before I caught it, I guess.. My feeling is it was not the cam that caused the problem. And I tend to rule out the springs being too heavy. The difference in weight between the Schubeck's and the Isky's was about 3 times heavier. I tend to think I should go to heavier springs. Isky rebuilt the lifters for free, but now I have $1k in a set of lifters I am scared to death to use.. like you with the Crowers.. I sat this year out and still have to figure out what I can do with my motor.. Two scored cylinders, and at my second to last bore, 4.607" - 4.625". Not that these things dont happen, just that $3000 for 20hrs of use is not my idea of fun.. And the big thing is no one can tell me what failed. I would have been better off making new jackets for the Schubeck lifters.. I could go to the spintron, but I dont have a spare block to work with.. This one is at the end of it's life cycle, so I am attempting to retire it to a street motor if someone is interested. I just have a hard time tossing that Hogin sheet metal intake in the trash..
That spray bar looks very interesting.. How do you plum oil to it on the Merlin block is my next question.. and will it solve my problem?? :(

I did find the part number.. called them. 755-7005, $90. Looks like it works very easily on the Dart M block. Not sure how it would be plumbed up in my Merlin block..
bob, what block do you have again, and where does that tap into on the front wall of your block?
Thanks!

DD.. it sprays oil at the cam and lifters.. suppose to make junk lifters live longer??

Ben, where is your line tapped into? Are you hitting one of the lifter oil bores?

So actually ,you DONT realy need it ?

Or is it better to have it ?

That is what I am trying to determine. In my case, I have a problem, but dont know what the solution is. Trying to find out how to make a cam live in my motor.. This may help, I dont really know.

But ,,, whywould if you spray oil on the cam ,,,,,,that make a difrents? shouldnt it be oiled anyways ????

Sorry i did not take the time to read you posts and i am not an engine builder(i wouldnt break all the time if i would be one ) but i found the right person now (which is very very hard) but i can ask him what he thinks.

You have solid rollers ,right ?
I hope you dont run synt. oil, because thats what broke mine ,because the rollers actually jump and hit back on to the cam.?!@#$% Does that make sence the way i sayd that ?????
Thats kind of how i got it explained to me .:rolleyes:

$hit, i just readsome of it .
Thats exactly what i had and i tell you its the oil ?! I have a 280 # spring in mine and since i changed the oil not a problem.

Yes DD.. solid roller cam.. Valvoline 20W-50.. 70hrs with Schubeck lifters.. 20 hrs with the Isky's and destroyed the cam and five lifters.

Thats what i have 20/50 VR1 ????? mmmmmmmh,,,,,,, wouldnt know what to tell you ,,,,but i will ask tommorow,,ups later today !

What kind of cam , i mean what manufacter ?
Dont tell me ISKY !

Cam Motion

Dick,
The plumbing on the Merlin or GM block is easy. You just use a 1/8" bulkhead fitting in the back of the block. One post on here shows that rigging.
Does it do any good? Not sure how to prove the spray bar helps...but it can't hurt and it is inexpensive.

Ben,
I see what you are saying. Just tap it into the back of the block where that oil line is.. good idea. I know what you are saying.. cheap insurance..

bob,
I am wondering, the big chief heads, do you remember cam specs and spring pressures at that time? Also what kind of rpm are you and were you running with that type of combination. I was running close to 6krpm and maybe the one fast pass I made closer to 6300rpm. I dont know for sure, never saw the tach and my data recorder was not on.. :(

Thanks!
Dick

Dick,
I was talked to Mike Riley (MRE) today and told him about your valve train issues. To start with, he reminded me that the geometry on a 9.8 BBC block is not great design. Then as you go to the taller deck heights of 10.2 and 10.8, the push rod angle just gets worse...especially for a HP marine application.
I was just looking at this listing in the OSO classifieds and thought it might be of interest. I think a lot of Tommy Hoffstetter and he would be an excellent source of info. If you were interested, he might even take your Merlin block on trade. http://www.offshoreonlyclassifieds.c...o26031-en.html

We are using the spray bar as well....never thought of using magnets,good idea....We also like lifter bore bushings,single taper 3/8 push rods w/.180 wall,shaft rockers and belt drives.

Theory has it,lifter bore bushings lubricate more consistently and if properly installed create a squared hole.The pry bar push rod is thought to create less harmonics as seen on a spin-tron,safeguard deflection and serve somewhat like a rev kit at low RPM. The shaft rocker system is thought to produce more consistent valve train load. In other words,friction from guide plates,friction from temperature effected stud girdles and individual rocker geometry effectively change or increase the spring pressure,expotentialy.....The belt drive is simply more harmonic vibration dampening....CV products has a new belt drive that may be of interest.....Valve spring oilers are another friction control point that may be worth considering.

Ben, without looking I would imagine the .937 lifter is the severe duty with pin oiling? Man, all lifters go in only one engine? did the other engine not have any failures? Was there a remote chance all 16 were built in the same batch that had some defective bearings? That's nuts!

Dick in the Big Chief they were 14 degree style and ran the offset lifter. They also had the real wide jesel rockers. Tht whole set up was terrible on valve train components. I ran those motors up to 6800. They were Merc class 1 motors with Kinsler EFI. That was when I started using the spray bar, back then the normal offset .842 lifter. I could get to almost 100 hours and pulled the lifters. I have never had one wipe out a roller. I guess I am real lucky!