I want to spend 10.000,- for 2 engines
 

In my Baja 320 I have two good stock 454 mag. engines with about 200 hours on the clocks. They run well but anyway I want to updrade them for more. What would you buy if you do not want to invest more than 5.000,-/engine.

(I hope everyone understands my "perfect" english)

exhaust, cam, heads?

i bought 2 - late 502 mag mpi takeouts w/ less than 100 hours on them for 4000 each. and was very happy with the result.

installation was a piece of cake with only a lift pump to supply the high pressure pump additional required.

I would try to trade yours in and get 2-- 500 hps from one of the engine builders, lots of them on classifieds here on oso. but you will need bravo 1 drives or better to run 500 hps.

Also add carb and intake. More than likely you will have to skip new heads and go with some mild port work on the ones you have to stay within budget. It really depends on what exhaust you go with. Exhaust could vary from 3k to 6k depending on what you get.

Good idea.

what are takeouts?


I have bravo 1, but I want to stay under 10.000,-!

If I remember correctly, those are the Merc 365hp engines with the old rochester quadrajet carb....correct??? If so, it is a very solid engine with all forged parts...i.e. crank, rods, pistons. So, you're good there.

Do you plan on tearing down and totally rebuilding the engines??? 200 hours isn't much time---perhaps just add a cam without taking the entire bottom end apart.

If you're real serious about making more power, then the FIRST item you need to buy is a better breathing aftermarket exhaust system---something like a Stainless Marine exhaust system would be great.

If it is the Merc 365hp engine, then it should have the stock GM rectangle port heads which is good enough for what you're doing. You will save a lot of $$$ money by keeping the heads you have now---just have them checked out and do some very light/mild bowl/pocket porting and shortside radius work by someone who KNOWS what they're doing---no necessity to do anything major on the port work otherwise you could kill the power, add bronze wall valve guides, make sure the decks are FLAT and a fresh valve job.

&) roller rocker arms
&) Holley 750cfm carbs
&) single plane intake manifolds (only if you add a cam and aftermarket exhaust)
&) hydraulic roller cam, roller lifters and matching valve springs, moly retainers and 10* machine hardend locks, and make sure to check for piston to valve clearances

If you do all of that---then it will make a BIG difference with your boat, but you will need to make some prop changes as well.

For what you're doing, I would call "RMBUILDER"/Bob Madara of Marine Kinetics in N.Y. (585) 654-8583 and let him get you dialed in with the correct cam and valve train components as it relates to what you're doing to the rest of the engine. He is a wealth of knowledge and has helped many here on OSO including me. Have fun!

This is just an estimate...

aftermarket exhausts $4500
holley carbs $1000
intake manifolds $700
roller cams, lifters, springs, retainers, etc. push rods, $2000
roller rocker arms $700
head work---porting, valve job, bronze guides, $1000

You're going to be very close to $10k in parts and some labor...and I am not counting all the labor you will require for your project. You will probably save about $1200 or so by going with a flat tappet cam verses a roller....but flat tappet is quickly becoming very old technology these days. Everything is going to roller stuff now.

Another thing that will effect your project is whether or not you have your engines completely torn down (bottom ends), machined, (honing the cylinders with torque plates, squaring the decks, align honing, etc), rings/bearings, ARP rod bolts, cleaned and assembled....that will be even MORE money.

Like I said, you may be able to just add a cam without disassembling the bottom end, but I could be wrong about that.

Just make sure whoever is doing the machine work, assembly, etc, has a very good reptuation. You need to be able to really trust the machine shop guys with what you're investing into this engine project. Most of what they do and how they do it will determine success or failure.

Also, here is an idea....

Buy some of the major external stuff this year....like the aftermarket exhaust and maybe the holley carbs and add them to your engine now. It will keep you boating this year....plus the exhaust will add some definate KICK in the midrange and will sound good. You may even gain a little RPM on top.

Who knows, maybe these mods alone will make you happy enough for a while until you do more mods when disassembling your engines for a total rebuild.

You can always buy the rest of the mods stuff next year or whenever you decide to rebuild the entire engine during the off season....heads, roller cams, intakes, roller rocker arms, machine work, etc...

Hi Kaama
I thank you for the time you take and for the ideas you give to me.

As you said in your last tread, I think, this is the way i will go, because it is a new boat for me and I first should check if i want to go for more or i am happy like it is.

I put a full fresh water cooling system this winter on my engines and had the stock exhaust off. so i saw, that i will have to replace it this or next year. But i do not want to go again for a stock exhaust. i like the dana with the silent vortec risers. I need the silent ones, because i dont live in the states, i want to drive on the danube through vienna and this i can only do with silencers. (Maybe the boat show is the right time to buy them.) What do you think?

Is the Quadrajet a good one or does it really make sense to go for the 750 holleys?

I read here on OSO, that somebody said, the stocck 454 mag is a good base for a blower. My idea: Why not putting a Weiand Blower on it, i could get it for about 3k.(ea.) it makes good hp and including the danas, i could stay beyond 10k.

Yes, if it is the Merc 454cid/365hp engine, then it is strong enough for the superchargers, but I am not sure if it is wise to add a supercharger to that specific engine without doing a complete rebuild. It may be better setting it up/rebuilding the engine with a supercharger in mind. I know you can add a supercharger to some of Merc's later model engines---but I am not so sure about the Merc 365hp model. Perhpas someone else can chime in who would know for sure about adding a supercharger to a factory assembled Merc 365hp engine.

If you want to SC it, then you should still pull the heads and get new inconnel exhaust valves and use better head gaskets.
You will still need new carbs and if you're going SC'd, I would recommend you have Nickerson set them up so you don't have problems. Keep in mind, you will have to run 93 octane fuel.

I cannot get lower octane than 95 in Austria!
Which carbs you would suggest?

Which SC you would recommend, without destroying the engine. I don´t need 1000 hp (not this year).:D

do you think this is possible under 10.000,-?

Holley 1050 Dominators. Have them set up by Nickerson. http://www.nickersonperformance.com/


Blower Shop 250's.

http://theblowershop.com/

You should make about 575 or so HP at 6#'s of boost.

200 Hours isnt much for the 365 mags. I have seen them go 900 hours without removing a valve cover. Depends on how they were used and maintained.

I would definitly upgrade the exhaust first. A fresh valve job and inconel ex valves. Add a cam, roller rockers, and 250 series blowers, 1050 dominators. Like Griff says, 575HP all day.

I run 177 blowers, which are smaller than the 250's. Everyone says they are too small, which creats heat. While this is true, these blowers were used on 454's(525SC) with very reliable results.

You can just go with new exhaust, valve job, roller cams, roller rockers, and keep your Qjet and GM aluminum intake with a spacer for now. As long as the q-jet is setup right, they can be made to support 450HP or better. Which is where I think you'll be with a exhaust upgrade and cam upgrade. Then add a blower kit later.

If i will get a good offer for my engines here in europe, i think about new ones, but i am pretty sure, i will go just for the dana exhaust, then see if i am happy with it. if not, i can think about cam, roller rockers, intake, head work and carbs; maybe blowers.

Silly questions: Can I use my Q-Jets on a 250 blower?

No on the Q jets. They are way too small at only about 750cfm.

Contact MIKE KNOKE in germany,,,he will hook u up with engines.

He is in Luebeck ,but u have to google him i dont have his #.

Just tell him Scott send u.

ok, thank you all

maybe with your trade ins, but you will most likely be a few k short.

good luck

2 new ones
 

Which company (anywhere in the states) you would recommend to go for full assembled engines? A company I can trust and with good prices. The companies in Europe are to expensive with boat stuff.

PS: Self advertisments welcome.

There is a engine builder in NC i know ,,he worked for some real big companys back in the day and knows his stuff,,, i will ask him if he will built you a pair.
What is it that u whant though ???

Hp ,Ci , complette with all the bells and wissels, or just longblocks ???

Also how much are u willing to spend for 2 complette new engines,i can tell u 10 K is not going to get u there.:eek:

I think you are on the right track, but you should do the exhaust and enjoy your new toy for a while. I don't think you can do exhaust, head work, cam, lifters, springs, rockers, blower, carbs, fuel pump/regulator, plumming, ect for $10,000, even if you do all the work yourself. Do like MILD THUNDER say's without the blowers and add them later, then you will be around 10k.
Every project I have done always comes in way higher because of nickel and dime stuff. In this case, it's $500 here and $800 there.
If you can sell what you have for a good price maybe then you can add the 10k and get some HP500's.

I have an offer for my 454 for 7.000 euro/both.

I would like to go for 430 - 450 hp. The other idea is to stay at 454 mag and buy rebuilt engines at victory for 6.500,-. I think this price is really hot, I never seen it cheaper. (plus exhaust)

I just want you to think about this. If you start pushing 550-600 hp then your going to hurt your drives eventually. Also figure in new props and they are not going to be free.
before you start spending more than 10K I would suggest seeling the boat you own and buy the boat you want. youll be better off in the long run.

in the clasifieds here on oso there is 2 454 420 hp newly fresh for 8500.00 for both.

There are exceptions to the rule, but there is really no right or wrong way of doing this---it is your choice, but what 28Eliminator said by doing the exhaust only for now is what I would do Chris!

As you are finding out, there are a ton of options you can go with, and you will hear a lot of opinions,....but like I said Chris, if they are the Merc 365hp engines, then they are already an ALL FORGED engine! If you are only wanting 430-450hp Then it can be done EASILY with your 365's by having them modified. Keep what you have....You do NOT need to trade your 365's in----it is not worth all the hassel and trouble if you are only looking for 430-450hp----take it from someone who has been down this road since 1981---myself and helping my friends. A Merc 370hp, 400hp, 420hp, 425hp and 440hp are nothing but a GLORIFIED 454cid/365hp engine with different parts....mainly different cams. You can have the same thing with a few changes and mods.

At least BEGIN FIRST with an aftermarket better breathing exhaust for now (this year) and go boating....then add the other INTERNAL mods the following year during the off season. It's just a suggestion

I have to agree,,,if u only whant 430-450 ,,,454 are easy beefed up to HP 465 ,,thats basicly what they are.

And a buddy of mine had 465's that made 500 HP !

Nice heads diffrent cam ,better crank ,intake and exhaust and u should be easy in the HP range and your price range.:ernaehrung004:

You can easily build your 454mags to 450hp for under 10k.

I think you are all right and again I want to thank you for the interest in my problem. Its not really a problem, because I love my boat, the engines are running and I am looking forward to go with it. Maybe I do not need more than i have, I will have to see first, before i decide to go for more, (or not.)

Having more is always good:D

But i would take it easy and just go step by step .:ernaehrung004:

Lets assume you are going to shoot for 430HP out of your 365's.

Cam & lifters 200.00
Timing Chain 50.00
Roller Rockers 300.00
Exhaust 2000.00 (although lots of used GIL setups for about half that)
Holley 800 carb 500.00

I would think that for around 2500 per motor, you can upgrade to around 420-440HP if you do the work yourself.

You should see a nice performance increase by just upgrading cams and roller rockers on your motors. The 365's had very conservative cams. Going to a hyd roller cam would be nice, but not necessary for the HP goal. And add alot to the cost and work. If you find a nice set of GIL or Stainless marine manifolds with dry tails, you can go with cams that have 110* centerline and make a little more power than a 114* centerline, providing you have dry exhaust.

You guys really seam to know what you are talking about.

But you said "Dry exhaust". this makes me little nervous. Isn´t this a hot thing and louder too?? I don´t know why but i always think about the 4" dana exhaust with ss risers and silent choice exhaust. Maybe the silent thing costs me a few hp, but without they are going to kill me.
http://www.danamarineproducts.com/Pr...8-99cf0bcd1aec

A dry exhaust is louder,,,but with a sharp cam u will get reversion ( water would go back in the engine ) thats wy a dry exhaust is better.
Also , dry is not with out water,,,it is still water suroundet to cool it, just not mixed with the exhaustfumes !!!!

To kill ya they need to catch ya !!!!! LOL:D

Very interesing, did not know that they are cooled to. i have been searching around a little bit an found out, that some dry systems are just for fresh water use. is this possible?
In my boat I have a closed cooling system and am driving in salt water! How is the dry system cooled - with salt water or by the water around the engine?

I did exactly that to a 454mag. the only other thing I did was mill the heads. I gave the exact specs to somebody else and he also changed his intake. He dynoed at 420hp at 5000rpms.

"Maybe I do not need more than i have"

I think you will find out that you will want more. The easiest upgrade to do is the exhaust, but I wouldn't hesatate to do the other modes that Mild Thunder listed if you have the time and the money. Fairly easy upgrade that will really improve getting on plain and acceleration. Don't forget the price of new props with your changes!