qaberdeen

I'm looking to repower my Velocity 260 hopefully for next season... I talked to my local Rep..and he can get the 8.2 without the Cat.. would this be a wise move..I'm in Bermuda, and we don't have emissions control for boats... or would it b best, just to go with a 496

A.O. Razor

Why should it be unwise to go with the 8,2? Why go with an "old" motor. And if the internals are forged, which a merc rep told me, it's - unlike the 496, a great platform for upgrades. Just get it without the cats.

qaberdeen

thanks A.O, what is the difference between the one with the Cats, and one without, would it b quieter and would it lack abit of performance..just enquiring and trying to gain as much knowledge before jumping in...

40gt

That's a good question.
I know all the new 8.2 mercs are rated 380hp / 430hp - cats or no cats.
But I personally find it hard to believe that is actually the case.
Cats restrict airflow = less hp potential.
So I suspect the 8.2s without cats will be putting out more hp than the ones with the cats. Simply due to the fact they can breathe better.
That's what I'm hoping anyway.
For the same reason, the non cat motors should be easier to extract extra hp from initially. Plus there are less sensors to deal with.

It will be interesting to see just how restrictive the Mercruiser cats are.
It will also be very interesting to see the dyno figures of the 8.2's when they are done independently. Cats verses no cats.

The way I see it, the cats are an unnecessary component for a high performance boat forced on some of you by legislation.
So unless you bleed green, why would you buy a motor with them?
Last time I checked my blood was red, so there is no way I'll be running them until I legally have to.

A.O. Razor

From what I've been told, there is no diff. The mapping makes each type perform the same. The exact diff. I don't know about. What I was told by Dirk Meyer (I think hes name was) from merc was, that everything, Black or Blue, cat, non-cat, is rated as crank hp SAE, even though their website lists prop hp for the 8,2. The reason for this is, that all motors are available as bobtails, and each drive is different. This also confirms what Dustin Whipple has posted about the variation from both the blue and black motors. I remember he said the 525 being between 515-525 hp SAE on average on the flywheel, and the black motors had a 2% variation.
Earlier in this thread, it was mentioned that the cat version had an extra ecu, to control the 02 censors. I don't know much about this, but a non cat engine should be quite a bit easier to modify, and cats on these motors are fairly new technology, so I would just go non cat.

If you ask merc, I highly doubt they will tell you what the exact diff. is. If they did, you would be able to work around it, and they don't want that.

And yes, cats on boats suck.

Raylar

I can tell you I have personally had three direct conversations with three new boat owners who have these new 502 catalyst version emissions engines in their brand new performance boats and "THEY ARE NOT HAPPY!" The boats with these engines appear to not even be performing anywhere as good as the same model boat with previous 496HO's they replaced and are definitely down on speed, acceleration and overall performance!
I don't know what the issues are but I suspect that in the controlled emissions mode they in these cases are not making the power as advertised and according to these owners the Techs can not explain the issue or find anything supposedly wrong up to this point. I know that two of these boats are for sale and they are looking at new boats with different power.
I would think that anybody considering using these emissions engines in a new boat purchase do a little close behind the scenes independent investigation and fact gathering before proceeding with a possible purchase. Not to say these are bad engines but with the little use so far in just a few performance boats there seems to a possible "issue" in the woodpile.
I don't have any direct information or knowledge at this point on the non-emissions versions so its hard to say how they perform. If anybody has this input I would be curious to hear those real world results.
Our programmer is working on the new version ECM for possible mods on the new non-emissions versions, but I know we will not get into the issue of modifying the programs in the emissions ECM versions as it is a direct violation of the current laws both federal and state! Were not going to stick our neck in that noose and I suspect that other programmers like Whipple will be careful in that type of modification.

It took many years and a lot of money and time to work out emissions systems in vehicles, it ain't gonna be any overnight item in performance boats engines.
Just my two cents here.

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

40gt

Your "two cents" is always appreciated Ray.
Thanks for the update.

tony davis

Her's a copy of a Merc bulletin.....

Dear Mercury Marine Customer:
Thank you for the purchase of your new boat powered by a Mercury MerCruiser 8.2 Emission Control Stemdrive engine package. We appreciate your business and hope you are enjoying the boat. We are contacting you, however, because we believe that certain upgrades to your engine package will
enhance your boat ownership experience. The upgrades will be performed at Mercury's expense.
SITUATION
.
We have determined that some 8.2 Stemdrive Emission Controlengines (which, according to our records, is the engine that powers your boat) may experience hydraulic lock if the engine is run hard and then keyed off quickly. lf hydraulic lock occurs, the engine may be prevented from restarting, and
could damage internalengine components. Although these occurrences have been rare, we believe it is prudent to address the potential issue with system upgrades to help ensure that you have nothing but positive boating experiences in the future. You may continue to use your boat before you work with your dealer to have theses upgrades performed, but you should make repair anangements as soon as possible. ln addition to installing a vent valve to address the hydraulic lock possibility, some engines will benefit from other engine upgrades that we will also make at our expense.
WHAT YOU SHOULD DO
Contact your authorized Mercury Me€ruiser dealer and make arrangements for having thie vent valve installed. The dealerwill referto Mercury MerCruiser Service Bulletin 2011-03 for instructions.
You must deliver your boat to the dealer and present this letter to the dealer. lf you are having difficulty obtaining repairs, please contact our Customer Contact Center at 405 743 6566 for assistance or use the dealer locator feature at www.mercurymarine.com.
lf you have sold the engine or boat, please contact our registration department at 920 929 5054 or email
us at [email protected] to provide information on the new owner. Please refer to Mer0ruiser Service Bulletin 2011-03 with your information.
You may operate your engine until this repair has been completed.
WHAT WE WLL DO
We will reimburse the dealer for performing the upgrades in accordance with the instructions outlined in the service bulletin. There will be no cost to you to have this work performed.
We apologize for the inconvenience performing this upgrade will cause you; however, we have taken this action to ensure that your future boating experience will be enjoyable and trouble-free.
Sincerely,
Mercury Mercruiser Service Department

Whipple Charged

Cats are not really a restriction at these power levels. Remember cars have cats as well and we all push more power from these units quite easily.

Turning the cats on/off is easily done. I don't see that as a real problem but I don't see a big power gain from just removing cats.

During all our marine CARB EO testing, I didn't see cats effect our HP in anyway up to 900hp. These were a slightly different design, but I can tell you that cats are not always a bad thing.

Emissions testing and approval is not a problem and we'll be offering EO version kits as well as non-EO for non green states/countries or race boat applications.

Raylar

Whoa! Lets not kid ourselves here! There will be a period of years before the basically "dirty" marine performance engines will meet the ever increasing restrictive emissions numbers that the green states and EPA require and still make good reliable power that performance boaters long for. As we all know to run for moderately long periods of time at higher rpms and higher power levels current "affordable" marine engines based on current automotive engine platforms require air fuel ratios under high loads of about 11.5 to 12.5 to 1 ranges. In these ranges their is no current catalyst system that is available in these engines that will bring the CO, HC and NOX levels in compliance with current and future emissions ranges that the "Green" states and EPA (Fed) agencies require under current statutes and still produce power levels comparable to pre-emssion marine performance engine outputs.
The current way these emissions marine engines are set up and calibrated is to lean the air fuel ratios, control timing and limit enrichment to a point where the catalyst system can bring the overall CO,HC and NOX outputs in compliant ranges. I believe this is being done by ECM program with unintended control of the engines power outputs and reliability to bring the engines in required levels of overall emissions.
The "Animal" that Mercury and other marine engine manufacturers have brought to market now are in affect "Gap offerings" , those that they could come up with in a short period of development time and that will evolve into future better platforms that will be able to produce power and reliability in better form.
The problem that really will lengthen this period is the fact that the performance marine boat building industry is so depressed and constricted that not enough of these new emission engines are being put into use quickly enough to "work the bugs out" and improve the platform. In the mean time the few new boat buyers will have to be careful and will also be prepared to be the "Guinea Pig" for this evolution!
I would like to have someone such as Dustin here inform us all of the "Non-green states" so we can really see how many performance boaters are still under the new emissions marine engine umbrella. I don't believe there are that many states now that do not yet require federal EPA emissions requirements for new boat marine engines.
If you are buying new engines for re-power this basically removes the emissions engine requirement and only the new engine mechanical issues become any sort of issue.
Obviously upgrading and increasing power in these engines will not be any real issue and the industry will offer solutions as the demand develops.

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar