MSD on 525sc help!!
 

so, im in the process of trying to wire up an msd 6A box on my 98 outlaw with a 525sc. i had some problems last summer with the thunderbolt ignition cutting out and not giving any spark, so i wanted to eliminate it completely and run an msd set up. i see in msd instructions that with an ignition that has an ignition amplifier, like the 525sc, you are basicly piggybacking it to the factory ignition, since it has a locked distributor. has anyone else run into this problem, and if so, what is my next step? i dont want a piggyback system because of the problems i had last summer. will i need to run a msd distributor as well, or is there something im missing? Griff, if you read this, please share some knowledge you have for the 525sc, and let me know what my options are...

If you are keeping the Thunderbolt dist., then you have to run the amplifier/ign. module. If you want to eliminate them, then you have to change the dist.
Eddie

its the factory ignition amp something that goes out normally on the 525sc motors? i dont want to be stranded on the lake because of something i could take care of now, but i dont want to spend cash on something that doesnt need to be bought either.

and wouldnt i kind of be defeating the purpose of running the msd if its still piggybacked to the factory ignition amplifier? really doesnt sound like im accomplishing what i was out to fix...

You are not eliminating anything that could have been causing your problem by adding an MSD box. The 525SC ignition system is exactly the same as all the TB ignitions except it uses a different advance module. It also has an add on rev limiter. I would suspect you have a short somehwere or the pick up in the distributor is getting bad. I would check all the connections for corrosion or a cracked wire.

Griff, im glad you jumped on this one. we checked all the wiring, and to our sight, it looks good. how reliable is the factory thunderbolts, and how plentiful are replacement parts for the system? would i be ok with putting on the msd since i already have it and replacing the factory pickup?

Mercury has greatly improved the distributor pick-up with a potted and sealed unit. If you have not upgraded to the new pick-up I would definately recommend it. It is about $65.00.

Do you have the TB IV or TB V ignition????

The TB ignitions are about as reliable as you can get. All parts except for a few of the modules are are still readily available. The MSD definately won't hurt anything and may help it idle a little cleaner.

Make sure you have good clean contact between the ignition module bracket/plate and what it is mounted to. The module case grounds itself through this. Both the module case and black wire from the module need to be well grounded or you will get a no spark.

Thanks griff! im gonna just go ahead with installing the msd and replace the pickup and ignition amplifier for safe measure. hopefully it will solve the problem.

oh, and ive been told its the TBV ignition.

You will save some money in the long run, if you just buy the whole MSD kit right now. Call around. THey have been on sale in a lot of places lately.

Also make sure when you hook up your amplifyer box you install this noise filter. It will help keep those boxes from burning out.

http://www.jegs.com/i/MSD-Ignition/1...oductId=747781

I was told by my boat guy that i can bypass the factory ignition amplifier and just set base timing to 32 degrees and run the msd box that way. is this something that will work? he said he has done two like that in the last month and had no problems with starting or detination.

reason being for that is, he checked price and availibilty on the factory ignition amp, and it said it was over 300 bucks and no longer available.

The 525SC gets 35* of timing at full advance gradually from 1000 to about 4500rpms. Full advance(35*) does not come in until about 4500rpms. I really do not think the MSD is going to solve your problem and don't see any reason to timing locked at 35*.

What does your ignition module/amplifier look like???? #1 or #2????

#1 http://www.mercruiserparts.com/Show_...ru+0F877734%29

#2 http://www.mercruiserparts.com/Show_...ru+0L415623%29

right now MSD is having a terrible issue with their pick-ups in the dist cracking and failing..cheap chinese junk...so if you put in a new MSD dist...like playing russian rolet !!!

griff, it looks like the first one.

would i just be better off going with a new distributor instead of all this trouble? im looking for a reliable fix, but not something that will break the bank...

Fixx
 

Replace the pick up in the distributor first,usually a sign of it going bad is the tach will bounce around and the engine will sputter at idle.. Pull the cap and see if it's all corroded,also they get gummy..The replacement is a totally different design..

i just bought a new pickup this am. i was told it was the new design, but its the same kind i have in the boat now. saturday, i pulled the cap and both cap and rotor have wear, but nothing that would cause any problems.

Buy the whole MSD marine kit out of JEGS or summit, or maybe one of the dealers on this site has some deals on the kit.

It is a really good investment for you. :coolcowboy:

You have a TB IV igntion then. You could use V8-24 module or V8-HP module instead. The V8-HP would be my choice. The are also NLA, but they were on HP500's and there are some used ones out there.

The modules do not fail very often, but it does happen.

well, if they are both NLA, wouldnt i be better off going with a full MSD distributor instead of looking to replace a used part with another used part? I think i can get a new msd dist. for about 150. too bad i bought a new pickup for it this moning. I just want it to be relieable, and not be stranded this year.

How about using the D.U.I marine distributor with coil and be done with it.

Do I take it that this filter is installed between the (12VDC+) source and the amplifier battery circuit? Hmmmm interesting. And you say it prevents the amp from burning out. Reason?

this is true. the pick up in the disteruber is the main think that goes bad!!! i always have a spare on my boat. its funny my boat did the same thing i was in the bay i replace it .still did the same thing here it trun out to be the fuel pump .so i put a fuel preasure gauge in my dash :drink:

Fixx
 

I think the DUI may be to big and may interfear with the back of the blower?

The TB IV igntion is as reliable as it gets. Yours is 12 years old. I highly doubt you find and MSD out there that hasn't had issues in 12 years.

I had a coil leaking a little oil on my 525sc. I replaced it with and MSD high vibration coil. The MSD lasted less than 3 seasons. I put on an old Merc coil that I had that was about 12years old and the engine fired right up and ran fine.

Now back to your issues. I highly doubt that you have a bad ign module anyway. Most of the time when they go out, they just quit completely. They do not work intermittently. I still say you have a short in the wiring somewhere. Most of the wires back there are actually for the add on rev limiter on the 525SC. There could actually be a problem with the rev limiter as well. It cuts spark at 5350rpms. It could be getting stuck and cutting spark when its not supposed to. You could eliminate the rev limiter by getting a 454/502 mag TB IV wiring harness.

There is a flow chart in the Merc manual for checking the ignition system. I don't have a manual anymore. It is the same flow chart for all TB IV ignitions, so any manual will work.

So what exactly happens when you get the no spark condition??? When does it happen???? How have you gotten it to restart????

Also, here is a chart for all the module curves. The 525SC has the first V8-22 module and I think it is actually stamped as a V8-22S

A DUI would fit with no problem. There is plenty of room behind the blower.

griff, the first time it did it was on the way back to the landing after a full day of riding, while we were idling in a no wake zone. it just dead killed. lifted the hatch, looked around for about a minute, and it cranked right up. never gave me a problem again until the next outing. rode it about 3 hours and once again, in a no wake zone, it killed. but this time we waited there for two hours and still no fire. got it on the trailer, and the next day it cranked right up. havent put it back in the river since that last time, but on the muffs it runs great. what about what my mechanic said to do with bypassing the factory ignition amp and just wiring the msd box directly to the pickup, and setting timing at 32 degrees? do you think that is something that will work?

mrfixxall, there should be plenty of room behind the blower to run the DUI dist., and im saying that going off of not seeing the size of the DUI dist. the blower on the 525sc sits pretty close to the front of the engine.

It will work, but you may lose a little power on the top end. They are designed to run at 35* above 4250rpms. Doing that will also bypass the rev limiter.
You could also put a V6-14 module on it. It will give you about 10* of advance by 2000rpms.

You are just assuming its the ignition module. From what you have described, it could be that or several other things. Did you pull a spark plug to actually verify that there was no spark??? You really need to get the Merc ignition troubleshooting flow chart and a volt meter and then go through the chart the next it happens. The module case not having a good ground will show the exact same thing as a bad module when going through the flow chart.

Did you pull the module and mounting plate off the mounting bracket box??? Check for rust and corrosion.

yes, we pulled the main coil plug, jumped it to the cap, and there was no spark at all. im going to pull the ignition mod this weekend and check all the connections a second time and clean the mounting points.

when you say "it will work", is this something you see as being safe? i know it takes away the rev limiter, but not once have i ever hit it or plan on doing that. would setting base timing to 35 degrees be a better choice? also, would you have any of these parts you are describing to me lying around that i might be able to buy from you to keep it as factory as possible and relieable?

That could easily be a sign of a bad coil as well. You need to check for 12 volts going into the coil when the problem happens. Coils will show signs of failure when they are hot or under a load. Nuetral on the hose most likely will not show a problem if it is just getting weak. Get a volt meter and a copy of the Merc flow chart and keep them in the boat. Actually, the Merc Manual for the 525SC is a great reference tool. I had one, but it went with the boat when I sold it.

My opinion is that Merc made this one the most reliable blue engines ever made with the stock set up. If you are doing any performance upgrades, I see no reason to change to an MSD. My boost was increased and I had a bigger roller cam and still never had any need for an MSD box. It idled fine and that is where an MSD box will help the most.

Running the timing locked at 35* can make hot starts harder and can cause the starter work harder and wear out sooner. It also creates more of a risk of detonation in the low to midrange rpms. I think there are better options. I would get an MSD distributor and try to get the curve set as close to the stock 22* curve as possible instead of locking it at 35*

Keep a rev limiter on it. Going slightly past the 5350 rpms is not a problem. Its when you are running at 4500rpms, catch a wave and all of a sudden the engines zings to 6400rpms.

The real solution is to find and fix the what is wrong. Right now you are just guessing. You probably will not be able to find out what is wrong until it happens again.

No, I don't have any of the parts I talked about other than maybe an old spare coil.

thanks so much for your advice and help Griff! i put a new msd blaster coil on it right after the first time it happened, so im assuming i could take that out of the equasion. the new coil has less than 4 hours on it. i bought a new pickup this week, so im going to put it back together stock for now, and go run it this weekend, and see if the problem happens again. i will for sure be bringing a volt meter with me, and hopefully the pickup will solve the problem. ill update this tread after i take it out and i see if it happens again. and yes, i do totally agree with doing a msd distributor then locking the timing as well. again, thanks to all that responded to help me here!!

ok, so i put everything back stock this weekend, along with the new dist. pickup, and no spark at all. im getting tired of troubleshooting, so im just going to get a msd distributor and quit messing around. anyone have any suggestions on either the msd or another brand they have had good luck with? also, im assuming i should be ordering a dist. for a 454, unless someone has a part number i could go off of.

I know this has probably been covered, but I really don't want to read all the way back.

Do you have signal from the ignition??

Keep in mind that you can get the whole kit (box, coil,wires,dist) from JEGS for around $600.

Problem was intermittent and at idle and does not repeat running on the hose. I told him that he needs a volt meter and Merc Ign troubleshooting flowchart to diagnose it when it is happening.

That flowchart would be helpful.

It could be something moving around while idling, or running, such as the ignition switch developing corrosion, corrosion inside the 10 pin plug, frayed purple wire, or the little ground wire that runs back and usually hooks to the solenoid block.

It could be something really stupid, and it's the fact that it is intermittent that makes one thing it might not be in the coil or dist, but just in the main harness or behind the dash.

Maybe if he ran a jumper wire from the battery, or main power block using a long wire and 2 aligator clips to bypass his ignition by hooking the other end to the hot side of the coil. (basically simulating the job of the ignition/ signal wire). Test the boat and see if this helps the situation. If it does not, the problem is on the dist/ coil side of the circuit. If it helps, he would need to go back towards the dash with the problem.

Hope this helps.

Good luck

Jeffman, can you explain what you are talking about with jumping the coil a little better? i would like to try this to see whats going on.

Basically, there is a purple wire that comes out of your main harness. That purple wire splits and turns on the coil, and also runs to the switch side of your alternator. This is the signal wire from the ignition switch that is hot in the ON position.

This circuit can be bypassed by attaching a lead to the hot side of the battery, and to the terminal on the coil that this wire is attached to. THis bypasses the ignition switch ON position. You will not be able to kill the engine once it is running until you unhook the jumper wire. Sometimes there is a "+" on the coil. THis is the terminal that the purple wire attached to.

If your problems go away with this jumper wire in place, then your problem is not in your ignition system, your problem is somewhere in your wireing harness, or ignition switch or behind your dashboard.

Good luck. Call me if you have anymore questions.

Jeff 832439.5304

i will try that this weekend. if you really dont mind, if i have any problems, i will take you up on calling you when im working on it?