Help!!!!
 

Hey guys, over the last 1 1/2 yrs, I've tried my best to help where I could with many here, now I need some of this help.
Need some more opinions to go with a couple that I have already gotten. Looking for a large majority, or a been there done that.......this is what will work.

Got my motor back in and running today on the muffs. Afterwards, I notice a very small bead of water between the head and block at the center cyls. I think the head gasket has to be leaking some. This is a Gen V 502, so head bolt holes are blind.
The heads have been cleaned up, so they are flat. The block showed .0015 max over a 6" distance, and this was at the cyl. webs, not at the water passages. Also .002 max over the full length across cyls, straight and diagonal. Merc specs out .003/ 6" length and .007 runout over the total length, so figured I was OK and no need to deck the block. Head gaskets are the FelPro perma torque. New ARP head bolts. I did as Felpro suggest, torque head down in steps and sequence according to factory specs, wait 10 minutes, loosen 1 head bolt up at a time and then retorque it, then on to next bolt. This I did. I used the ARP assem. moly lube, both on the threads and under the bolt head on the supplied washers. Normal factory torque specs are 75 ft. lbs. ARP says 65 ft. lbs with their ARP lube, so this I also did. Also holes were cleaned with a tap for accurate torqing. It has been suggested to retorque from the ARP's 65 ft lbs, but to factory specs @ 75 ft.lbs. While reading the ARP web site, it says on new fasteners to torque-loosen-retorque 5X before final torque. Any thought on this pocedure? It has also been suggested to check for the new bolts to be bottoming out in the block, but I believe I checked the length to the original bolts, and they were the same length as long as I used the washers with the new ARP's.

Also to note, when I brought the motor back home from being dynoed a couple of weeks ago, I noticed this wetness on both sides, but thought it must be just condensation from the trip home or somehow water blowing out the block while traveling. So this is why I looked for it today, out of curiosity. I'm assuming the dyno uses more water pressure, so this is why it leaked on both sides then.
My biggest worry is that on the muffs today, I only have around 3-4 psi and it leaked, whats going to happen at normal 20 psi? I think I know that one!!!!!

I really DO NOT want to be pulling this damn thing out again, much easier to sell it! :mad:

So, what is the census on retorqing to the higher, stock spec of 75 ft. lbs, but using the ARP bolts with the ARP lube? Would 10 ft lbs make a difference, even though it only leaked with only a few psi of water pressure? And what about the 5X procedure?

Thanks for ANY help you can offer.
Jerry

Yes the 10 lbs. might make a difference. It also might seal after 2-3 run cycles cold-hot-cold. One other thing I have seen is the edges of the cooling ports getting slightly rounded from cleanup and then allowing coolant to seep past. the ports must have perfectly square edges to seal properly-this is another good reason for slightly decking the block. The 5 time procedure will stop leaks down the road by pre-stretching the bolts but should not fix seepage now. OTOH it couldn't hurt.:D

One other thought... If there was too much lube on the bolts it can cause a hydrolock in the hole-hopefully you used it sparingly.

Maybe do a compression check and see if the cylinders are sealed tight. I have always re-torqued my heads after the first heat / cool down of the motor. I would do this and double check your bolt lengths. You can do this without pulling the motor. Good point about the lube, don't use to much in blind holes. Good Luck!

jerry,
i did an engine once where i ran a tap through all the bolt holes and thought they were clean, i don't know why, may be the tap was a little worn or something but the bolt hung up a little and gave a false torque reading. did you run a die nut on the bolt threads? just my opinion, but i would put in ARP head studs, change them one at a time and tq. to 50 lbs. and go up 10 at a time until you get to 85lbs. i like the 30 wt. oil and not the arp lube. if you use studs you can guarantee you won't bottom out and you have good clean threads. heat the motor up once and re-torque. then hydro the motor with the plugs out and look for leaks in the cylinders.


good luck, Fran

Did you do a cylinder leak test yet? I use ARP boltsand followed thier torque specs to a Tee. I have aluminum heads though... The idea is clamping force achieved. The lube reduces friction thereby transmiting more tension to the bolt and clamp area. I would put my money on a head bolt not sealing. Do any of your bolts go into the water jacket? If so, sealant is needed on threads in place of the lube. I called the ARP ph. number on the bottom of the sheet that came with the bolts to verify that.

I would remove the head bolts in the area, one at a time and look for coolant/water in the hole. Retorque, then check noxt bolt. You could even put a little positive prressure in the water jackets with an air compressor to see if you get flow out the bolt holes as you remove each.

Good luck, and you are right about me owing you for all your help.

BT :cool:

Thanks everyone for the help.

I have taken the general opinion and increased the torque from 65, to 75 ft lbs. or tighened until the threads started to strip out and then back off 1/4 turn, Which ever happened 1st. ;) I done one at a time and checked for lenght and also double checked for possibly a hole into the water jackets in the bolts near the center where the leaks have shown up. All is fine and dry. Yes, I did just use the lube sparingly on the threads, but heavier under the bolt heads. All the bolts where screwed in by hand when assembled until they stopped against the heads, just so that I knew that the threads are good, this should have also of bleed off any chances of hyd'ing the bolts. I am holding off on going to studs right now until after I see if this is the cure. Have to believe the new bolts are ample, especially since it's not like I am building any boost while on the hose and trailer. Got 1 side done tonite. Did not do a compression check yet, will see what happens when I get to run it again this week. Then may do a leakdown test too. With great dyno numbers, I dismissed any cylinder sealing problem.

Jerry

US1 Fountain,
Hope it works out for you. You’re having way too much fun the last couple of days.
Dan

Jerry, I don't have any better info for ya. I think these guys pretty much coverd it. Good Luck, I hope the 75ftlbs does it. Doesn't it really piss you off sometimes. Seems like a never ending battle!!!:mad:

Eric

US1 Fountain,

I always appreciated your help. I wish I could help you out on this one. I too used the fel pro gaskets and never had a problem. I did cheat though and I didn't do the retorque one bolt at a time. I know the fel pro instructions tell you to do this but old habits are hard to break. I torqued mine down to 10 then 20 then 30 40... then 50, 55, 60 then 65 max for my engine.

You did the right thing and it should work. maybe some of the engine builders can shead some light on this.

good luck

:D :D :D

Fun with head gaskets...
 

US1,

You may or may not recall all of the fun that I had with the head gaskets on my Gen IV 454 last summer. I basically had the same problem that you are having - water was weeping out where the block and head come together. I was also getting water in my oil - double check to make sure that you are not also having that problem! My engine builder used Ferrea composite gaskets on the engine, and said that they sometimes need a couple of heat cycles to get a good seal. I went as far as installing a 180* T-stat to get it good and warm. No dice - kept on leaking. I took the boat out to him, and had him install a set of Fel-Pro Permatorques. Problem solved. BTW - he found that the flunkee that was helping him had neglected to use sealer on the threads! Hope he didn't forget anything else, like torquing rod bolts! :eek:

If the leak slowed down after re-torquing, it might go away completely after a few heat cycles. As long as you aren't getting any water in the oil, it is more of an annoyance than an impending disaster. Doesn't do much for the peace-of-mind, though, does it?

Sorry I can't offer more help. Good luck!

Some (all ?) BBC heads have a water plug on the outside between the center cylinders. It's used for temp senders for EFI, and usually plugged on everything else. Could the plug be leaking and you just see the water settle on the block/head surface as it pools there?

-Greg

Felpro head gaskets..ARP bolts and washers..30wt oil..sealant in the holes that go to water jackets...torque to 75lbs..wait a bit and losen and re torque one at a time in seaquence= no leaks
Good luck!!!!!!!
Dan

I do it exactly like DanB, except I use sealant on all holes whether they go into water or not, I only torque to 65 because of aluminum heads, I retorque to 67 after first good hard run. I think it is important to use the same substance on all bolt threads as each will affect actual clamp force achieved slightly different. The important thing is even clamping on all bolts.

For US1 I would strongly urge a pressure test of the water coolant system. That will tell the story.

BT :cool:

i forgot to say in the first post, the reason i like studs better than bolts is that you don't have to disturb the sealant on the bolt holes that pass through the water jackets on a retorque. they are stonger too but the downside is they cost more. $112 dollars for one engine, :eek: for that price they should have jumped out of the box and installed themselves:rolleyes:

It sounds to me like ALL the bases are covered here. I really have nothing that I can add. Good luck, and I hope that your problem is repaired.

I hate to admit it eagle42, but I paid more than that for ARP bolts for one engine. I evidently got raped. I didn't think that the studs would fit with my roller rocker heads/valve covers. I'll do better next time.

BTW eagle42, When are we meeting up for that brewski at the Chesepeake Inn? Won't be long and I'll have to have the full contingent with me (wife and kids). This test run time of year is great for such activities!!!! ;)


BT :cool:

you paid what:eek: it happens. summit racing for $112.
i can meet you anytime down there in the next week with the little boat. the big one is still apart with parts strewn all over. i may make the first trip on saturday or better yet sunday, depending on the weather. let me know:cool:
[email protected]

Eagle42... I don't know how far I will go this weekend. Depends on how well I fixed everything after my last test run. Just put the SB engine back in the other day. Should have it all hooked up tonight. What do you go by on VHF?

We do what DanB suggested...but sealant on all the bolts..

Thanks all!
Both sides are done now to the higher torque following everyones procedure, which everyone seems to agree upon as the same. Hope to know results next day or so.

GregP, I did check the plugs for leaks. They should no signs of leakage and were tight. I did not consider that. Thanks

Jerry

I kinda thought we stopped torquing by ft./lbs. back in the early 90's and went to the stretch method or have I missed the switch back?? --- Jer

Jerry I to had the small leakage at the head -block area on my 454 mag. I am wondering if anyone else has trouble with Arp bolts and torque specs.my manual calls for 89 ft. lb. on short bolts and 92 ft. lb. on long ones on the factory bolts.are we not getting enough torque to the head with stainless arp bolts that only want 65 ft. lb. Maybe cooler block temps. are messing with the mix?Hope you get it . James:cool:

:mad: :mad:
Nuff said!

damn dude sorry to hear that:( :(

How can you measure stretch on head bolts when one side is in the block???????:confused:
I think this only applys to the tightening of rod bolts.

WHAT in the world was I THINKING?? I must have really been upside down & backwards that nite. Well, as Gilda said, "NEVERMIND" --- Jer

Hey I think someone owes us a follow up:D

There's your follow up! ;) Sometimes you just gotta say the hell with it! It'll give me something to do next winter. :rolleyes:

My brother is a welder. Thinking I may have the first and only 1 peice block and head motor.

:mad: :mad: I know how you feel. The first time we paid someone to fix it for us.....
We were getting water in the oil :( We took it to a local "doctor" and was told the manifolds were leaking into the block. When we picked it up he said "Oh you have lost oil pressure, but I'm sure if you take it out it should clear up" Needless to say that was late AUGUST and we never did take it out {well, the boat} We did pull the motor & it was the head gasket.
We're waiting on the new Motor, easier to put in a new that rebuild in same time frame.:rolleyes:
When in Doubt rip it out...... Ha Ha. Hope yours works out better