Synthetic for an older motor?
 

I'm trying to get an opinion on using synthetic oil for my 1989 454mag with over 500 hours. Teague had reccomended using Amsoil 20w-50 racing as a synthetic for marine but is it a good idea for an older motor that's never had it?

Synthetic is better, period. For a boat that gets very few hours, though, you're changing oil due to combustion impurities, not because of the oil breaking down.

For a stock motor in a low-hour boat, I say go with a good conventional oil and change it often.

For motors that get a lot of hours, or high performance stuff that is stressing the original parts, then synthetic every time.

Synthetic in a flat cam engine is a bad idea. You need a conventional oil with zinc (zddp) in it. If you cheap oil use Shell Rotella. I like Valvoline VR myself.

No disrespect, but you don't have any idea what you're talking about. Yes you need Zinc, but that doesn't mean synthetics don't have it.

+1
One of the highest zinc / phosphorus levels among the commonly available oils is Mobil 1 15W50 (1200 ppm zinc). Most conventional oils now have less than 800 ppm. M1 15W50 is run in huge numbers of flat tappet engines with no issues. I own a few of those engines.

http://www.goldenmotorguard.com/cart/

Very high zinc.

Ken

Yeah, and my AMSOIL Series 2000 Racing Oil had more than that after 60+hours of use.

Sorry to bud in too, BUT. High zinc and Phosphorus helps flat tappet cams..I use amsoil 20-50w. Less engine noise..I was told by several engine builders to stop using conventional oils (like mobil 1,) because of the lesser amount of zinc ,Phos, etc..

The extra cost for amsoil full synthetic is alot cheaper than broken engine parts

Mobil 1 makes lots of oils - some are lower zinc, but 15W50 has plenty of it. So does V-twin, and several oither of thier oils. They publish the levels on the website.

BTW, Mobil 1 is not a conventional (ie, dino) oil, it is a full synthetic.

We recommend AMSOIL 15w-50 DOMINATOR. This oil was specifically designed for a marine application. Many other Synthetic oils are just too slippery and can/will do bad things over time. I say stick to a good straight racing oil OR you wont go wrong with the AMSOIL Dominator or the Mercury Synthetic! -Eric

My engine builder told me to use Joe Gibbs Racing oil. expensive oil change, but cheaper than broken/worn parts!:lolhit:

too slippery ? can you give a example of a negative outcome from that ?

I went with Brad Penn Semi-Syn (http://www.bradpennracing.com/)
20w-50. At half the price.

Randy

The roller lifter skids across the lobe it does not roll., A bad thing. :drink:

I like Brad Penn also.

If a roller lifter did that it was not from oil being to slippery..your junk is junk...

I've used Mobil 1 15W50 in marine motors with roller cams since '99. Not one issue with it being too slick and flat spotting the rollers on the lifters. Amsoil claims their product is superior to Mobil 1, yet provides more friction in the motor so the rollers on the lifters don't slide. Say again? More friction = better oil?

Pretty sure that is an urban legend. No one has ever published a study or even more than anecdotes about that happening. GM has a few problems with rollers in the lifters early on and the would seize and flat spot or wear through. But if synthetic was a problem with rollers there would be a whole bunch of dead Corvettes, etc. out there.

my two cents , is i have switched some newer higher horsepower vette and mustang engines to synthetic and been burned by leaks that were not there with good conventional oil . my point being that when switched back no leak . everybody has a opinon i run 15w 40 rotella t with nothing but great things to say about it plus whole lot cheaper than syn. also i change oil more often than i should cause it makes me feel better !

Great feedback
 

Thanks to everyone for the feedback It is all incitefull. Keep 'em coming if you got 'em!

Find me ANYWHERE Amsoil states it provides more friction? I mean really???

Half the price=Half the product

http://www.valvoline.com/products/co...ng-motor-oil/9

Only oil I will use.

I started running Amsoil Full Sysnthetic in My HP500's this year and I am burning less oil and it is holding up better than blends or standard oil ever did. I have already put 60 hours or so on this oil and only changed filters.

that's ridiculous.. you think that somehow the friction in that needle bearing ( assuming it isn't physically broken) at a diameter of about .200 is somehow greater than the rotational load at the surface of the wheel ? or that the mystical " too slippery" oil is only too slippery on the lobe but not in that bearing ?

not in this or any other lifetime.

Lets just say for the sake of disucssion, that the roller is sliding on the slippery synthetic oil.

If it is sliding on the oil's flim, it is not coming in contact with the lobe of the cam so how can it wear out?


Ken

Look at Teague's post earlier in this thread. "Some synthetics are just too slippery". How else could Amsoil ensure the rollers roll and not slide if not through increased friction? Provide us with the science behind Teague's claims that only Amsoil Dominator 15W50 will ensure that your roller lifters will roll and not slide.

Your pullin my leg right?

The analysis is virtually identical to Joe Gibbs

I like Mobil 1 used it for years In every thing from race bikes to offshore boats...never had a lube related failure. M-1 has just become difficult to find in 15w50. Also M-1 today is not the same M-1 of 10 years ago, changes to be epa friendly.....less motor protection.

What brand do you favor?

Teague Custom never says "only" AMSOIL Dominator will ensure your roller lifters will roll and not slide.

See this is exactly how wrong information gets out in the public. People like you read something and twist it around to say something basically completely different.

And yes, typically a cheaper product, is exactly that, a cheaper product. They'll start with cheaper base stocks and additives to meet minimum requirements. Personally, I prefer AMSOIL products and my second choice would be Redline or Mobil 1. Do you also know that there is no minimum requirement by the government for "Semi-synthetics"? An oil can be called a "semi-synthetic" or "synthetic blend" even though it may only have less than 1% synthetic properties to it. Basically a cup of coffee with one creamer in it. Now, do you really think that oil is much better than the average petroleum out there. Just like Mobil 1, which is a full synthetic, not 100%, like it used to be 15 years ago or so. It is a highly refined petroleum product with PAO basestocks blended into it. I believe Redline is 100% and I know AMSOIL is 100% synthetic. Like I said, you get what you pay for.

Oh yeah, and what analysis is virtually identical to Joe Gibbs?

I couldn't find my info on comparison ...I just had it when I was looking at alternatives for M1. I can post there info (http://www.bradpennracing.com/Zinc.aspx) (http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/tra...101/index.html). None of the engine builders that I know recommend M1.... I don't know why?? That is where I got Brad Penn and Joe Gibbs name, a lot of racers use them. I have used M1 since 1978 after reading an article in Popular Science about its properties and how well it lubricated under extreme cold and hot conditions.
I had always thought of Amsoil as the Amway product of the oil world....no relation though. People were always pushing it at me. I do use Amsoil gear oil in my #5's, seems to work good.

Every Walmart I've been in recently has had the 15W50 in the five quart size (TX, SC, NC, and VA). The local (NC) Autozone has it in quarts and five quarts. Not sure that would qualify as hard to find.

Not in Michigan... even took a old jug in to Walmart and had them scan the bar code...no longer on their order guide. Buy all you can.....

So, you must not follow Bob Teague's technical column in Powerboat magazine.

Answer the question, Cory. What's the science behind Amsoil's Dominator 15W50 that ensures the rollers roll? This is Teague's justification for only recommending Amsoil as a synthetic for marine engines with roller cams. Here's your chance to protect the public from people like me. :lolhit:

That isn't good. I have 3 engines running it. Hopefully, our Wally Worlds here will keep stocking.

The engine builder I talked to uses M-1 15w50 and increases the valve spring pressure to stop lifter skid. They dont build motors for races or poker runs, if the motors they build fail people may DIE so I think that I will believe him over you "IN THIS OR ANY OTHER LIFETIME"

Amsoil is hardly the amway of lubrication.
More like tied for top spot or holding it in nearly every category its tested in against other oils. They make a great product.

Other guys make good oil as well. In other applications like Sprint cars- lots of those guys run Kendall because of its anti foaming properties. In a 9000 RPM 900HP alcohol burning small block this becomes important.

As for Engine builder recommending oil- Ilmor spec's Mobil-1 0-W40.

They warranty this engine for 24 months - Only if you prove you fed it this oil- which for the cost of the package I happily do.

Very few companies have the "chops" to test at the level ilmor does. How many companies can design an entire engine from scratch specifically to go win a particular series? Ilmor can and has a successful track record of doing it.

Seems weird to me personally not to go with a heavier weight, especially in a 100 % load marine environment- but I can honestly say after living with this engine for 2 seasons good enough for Ilmor- good enough for Uncle Dave.


Uncle Dave

I like Amsoil products. I've known about them for years. After meeting Cory's dad at a Sunsation Rally several years ago I decided to become a preferred customer and began using some of Amsoil's products in my trucks, cars, and boats. After a few years I just got tired of always having to order the products so I stopped using them. I am interested in knowing what Amsoil has done with this new Dominator 15W50 that prevents roller lifters from skidding on the cam lobes. I can always be persuaded to change back.

The RD series product was developed with Teague and his engine manufacturer. After numerous tests, there was no blueing of the cam lobe or lifters, and no signs of skidding. The new RD Dominator Series oils by AMSOIL were therefore developed and tested in marine applications to start with. It is actually a completely different product than the old Series 2000 Racing Oil was. Totally different base stocks, that basically no other company will use due to cost. And since AMSOIL uses the RD base stocks in other products, they are able to market and sell the new oils at a reasonable cost.

wow... that's dramatic. imagine that . skidding lifters killing people. oh horror. alert the media.

i have built probably a 1000 roller lifter motors of all shapes and sizes and probably 3 times that many solid lifter, push rod, twin cams, diesels and most everything else in my career. they ran in every race from the 24hrs of daytona to short track nascar and everything in the middle.

i have used every brand of petro oil there is and every brand of synthetic ( except these " house brands" like the joe gibbs sht ) and never... not once have i flattened lobes or ruined rollers due to any sort of oil failure. not once. and if i had to pick an oil to use by brand in ANY motor ( once broken in) it would be the mobile 1 products

the notion that oil in a motor ( assuming it is broken in first) can be " too slippery" is, perhaps , the stupidest thing that has ever been written here. there are no force balances in play in that mechanical system that would suggest that a properly assembled motor using the correct parts will somehow sieze the needle bearing due to too LITTLE friction before the roller skids on the lobe. people may have had those sort of failures for one reason or another but it is always going to be traced back to excessive spring load , cheap compnents or some other sort of assignable mechanical error. too little friction is never going to be the cause. never.