Yes mustangmark, this is method I plan on using tonight, as long as the hurricane winds slow down a little this evening. Thanks for the tip!

Rob, I would agree with the way mustangmark suggested. I've run solids on hydraulic for years with no issues but the cam must be a steel billet with a cast iron gear. If it is a cast cam the lifters will beat the snot out of the lobes in a short period of time. The bottom of the cam is not totally round, it dips in before opening. If you need a hand give me a call 889-0928. I'm not that far from you. JimV

Thanks JimV, would this cam have billet lobes, and a cast dist gear? Crane hydraulic roller special part #168731 grind #hr-226/345-2s-12ig. I have been wrenching all my life, just never had the chance to do the internal engine stuff. With some good instructions I should be able to tackle this. I printed of the same detailed instructions that mustangmark suggested, so I can have them right in front of me while I do it.

Well not the best night, re adjusted lash on all valves tonight which went really smooth. Took them to .010 like the engien builder said. Well after learning how to properly do it, realized they where all within .002 of .010 already. Even the one that was measuring .040 before. Well what I realized is that as the cam turns this one rocker/cam lobe would loosen up to about .040 as the cam turns. So basically my heart sank right there and then, cause I knew it was the cam. I adjusted it anyways so that when it came to the loosest part on the lobe is was measuring .012, re assembled everything and fired for just a second or two. Yep still knocks. Shut it down, pulled oil filter and cut it open with tin snips. It has a fair amount of very very small metal particles, sitting on the bottom of the fiilter housing. So I have come to the conclusion I have a **** cam lobe, does that sound correct? Next question is the rest of the motor trashed cause it ran for a little while with the metal in the oil? It still runs sweet, but I am not sure how to proceed forward at this point. My feelings are this, pull both motors, new more agressive cams, new hydraulic roller lifters, and new push rods for both. It is so freaking windy out there. Had this boat 6 days, feeling pretty sweet right now!!!

that really sucks, another big block that had the cam for dinner. does anyone know how they where broke in. did they use joe gibbs or other brand to break them in? remember break in break in is very important.

So what is the most aggressive cam I can run in these things with stainless marine wet headers. If I am redoing these things I want the end result to be better and nastier sounding than what i started with. Also I want to run prochargers on these in the future, at 5 pounds boost. Is there a good cam that I can run for a season or two as NA motors, but will respond well to the blowers when the time comes. I just hate to do all this work, and spend all this money just to have the same set up I started with. Would really like something that sounds mean!!!

I would go with the crane 168741 cam. Its a bit more aggressive than the ones you have now, and work very well with blowers. I would skip the prochargers, and stick with a roots style blower. I know too many guys with prochargers and spend lots of hours trying to get them to work properly. Once setup they make lots of power, but theres a reason all the big builders are still using roots blowers even on 1000+hp marine motors.

Introduce yourself to jimv. he is close to you. Let him help you get your motors straightened out. i agree you should switch to hydraulic roller lifters.

For all you know, you could have valve springs binding, too stiff of valve springs, etc. JimV will be able to get you going in the right direction.

Sucks, but at least you have all winter to go thru them, and come spring, you will have some bad a$$ motors. Hopefully you maybe just need fresh bearings in the bottom end. The cam material will get in them. Hopefully you cought it fast enough where the crank/rods didnt get hurt. It sounds like you'll be ok.

oh, BTW, if you want it to sound MEAN, while you have the motors out, bring your tailpipes to a good stainless welder. Have them extended all the way thru the transom (eliminating the rubber hose connectors). Run them dry out the back all the way. It will sound mean. Then when you put 5-6psi of boost thru the motors, it will sound REALLY mean. However, at that point, you'll probably be making 700+hp and blowing drives, which dont sound mean!

Fixx
 

you say the engines only have 5 hr's on them? talk to the builder and see if theirs any warranty!! also cut open the oil filter on the other motor and compare the metal particles,could be from brake in..if the cam is going south it usually starts at the top of the lobe and not the side..

as for your next cam talk to bob madara @ marine kinetics,he is to cam god on here..

Rob, sorry to hear. You need to now accurately assess what are the problems and now need to take a systematic approach on how to fix the problems. Take JimV up on the phone call and talk to him. He setup my cams and heads. Going extreme is just going to be more problems long term. BTW I run some radical cams with my with my Stainless Marine exhaust, but they are dry to the tips.

When I cut open my oil filters there was a little flakes in them from break in. No problems.

Normally not really a issue with rollers. Flat tappets, for sure. Sounds to me its more of a issue with those cams and the solid lifters and the setup.

Thanks for the advice guys. At this point if the bottom end is good and I can drop $1500.00 on each motor with new cams lifters push rods and a oil change or two I would be happy. Just trying to put a game plan together at this point. I know both motors are coming out before the boat goes to sleep for the winter, so i can have new parts installed in both and be ready for spring. I would be really pissed if this was june. As far as the cams, I do not need them to sit there and almost die at an idle, but when I pull into a channel at idle I want to turn heads cause they sound mean. The 731's in my opinion sounded to close to stock, if not stock. Just looking for something that sets me apart from the croud. With a little attitude:)

The 741's have a bit more duration, so they will idle a bit lopy'er. Going to full dry exhaust will make it more crackly if thats your thing. You dont wanna go to crazy with duration, as the low end power will suffer, to get max HP you'll have to sping 6k rpm, and unless you have full dry exhaust, reversion is a problem.

The 741 should make nice power, and prop the boat to turn 5400-5500RPM max which is still ok for the hyd roller lifters.

Saw you called the other night, goin to bed now, call ya tomorrow and catch up a bit bro....

Rob I did a procharger motor with that 741 cam in a friends boat. We made 812 hp with 7 psi of boost so I know that cam will work.He runs the gill manifolds on it with no problem

Introduce yourself to jimv. he is close to you. and 1 of the nicest guys you'll ever meet
+ 1 :drink::drink::drink::drink:























A lil story 4 ya :eek: Jimmy Valako drove 3.5 hours to deliver a set of heads to the shop last July and after talking with my son for a bit wanted to take a look at the ATECO rebuilds he just picked up from Waukegan and take a look at the bad cam that was replaced ,after inspecting the bad cam he went further & checked the lifters only to find the bad lifter was still in the bore ready to munch another cam :eek: all the lifters were removed & a new set of lifters was ordered & installed and a major catastrophe headed off .. meet Jim for lunch and a beer you'll be glad you did :drink:

Just got of the phone with Jim. What a great guy, explained everything to me in detail, and helped me understand what was probably going on with this engine. Looks like both motors are getting pulled and dropped off at Jim's for a little upgrade:) After talking wiith Jim I feel very confident that we will have these motors figured out and rocking, not to mention not having to cross my fingers everytime I turn the key. Thanks Jim!!!

Good deal! Keep us updated.....

Your welcome rob with all the help.If I would have knowing you would give the work to someone else I would not have come over on a Sunday afternoon

I am sorry Dennis, I did not realize you where viewing it as a job interview. I valued your opinion, and you live so close I did not think it would be a big deal for you to stop by when ever it worked best for you. I thought it was more of fellow boater kind of thing. I never ment to offend you. I am happy to pay you for your visit. I did not think you where set up to do all the work that Jim and I discussed. I am sorry Dennis!!!!!

uh oh.... :party-smiley-004:

Doh! :party-smiley-004:

Sounds like a honest misunderstanding though

I've happily given out FAR more FREE work than I'll ever get in PAID work. I view it as a blessing that keeps on giving. If I treat people well, and help them when I can, maybe I don't get the cherry jobs, and maybe I do. The cutthroat guy down the street charges for every second of his time, and all his stuff is paid for. He's known as "Rapin' Ray" but people keep going back over and over and paying his rates. I'm starving to death, but I will never operate like he does. Goes against the way I was raised.

If I'm going to "drop by" and help somebody, I don't consider it billable time. If I plan to offer paid services for additional work, I make it clear that I'm interested in carrying the job farther for pay.

But like I say, I'm starving so maybe I'm not the right guy to listen to about what's the right way and what's the wrong way..

MC

Ditto MC can't count how many drives,transmissions,water pumps,fuel pumps,impellors, we've changed/swapped out for fellow boaters on the weekend for Pizza & pitchers of beer when the town marina service shop was closed just so they could still enjoy there boat .:drink::drink::drink::drink::drink::drink:

I guess I have the same mind set that you guys do. But everybody is different.

x2 the morals are the best.

x2

I think I would only put solid lifters in something that was a little easer to work on. Harley motor comes to mind. Then again if you were raceing your boat guess you take advantage of what you can.

that sucks!
 

sorry to hear that! I would pull your v/c and check and see if that one rocker in question is loose again. from there, pull the rocker and inspect the pushrod to make sure it's not bent. if it's straight, pull the intake to get to the lifter so you can inspect that. if the lifter looks good, inspect the lobe on the cam. you should find the culprit somewhere in there. to answer your question about "is the motor trashed?".....ive been down this road twice! it sucks! DO NOT just flush the motor and replace the lifter if it's a bad lifter! eventually you will end up with a rod knock! the shavings that you have already found in the filter indicate that something is very wrong. if you where to keep running it, those shavings will embed themselves into your bearings and wipe out your crank journals, and also embed themselves in the sides of your pistons and wipe out the shirts.
if you are going to change the cams, i suggest you get in contact with Bob, "RMbuilder" of Marine Kinetics. he is very reputable and very good to work with! he will not steer you in the wrong direction! he'll be able to help you out with your whole valve train. i am very impressed with him personally!

sorry, when i posted the above post i hadnt read all the other post. i still recommend pulling the motor and going through it to clean all the shavings from it. you will be much better off in the long run. after my 2 experiences and the amount of $$$ i spent to fix it twice it wouldnt even cross my mind if it happen agaim. sounds like your headed in the right direction and doing the right thing....good luck to you!

ALSO...MOREL LIFTERS ARE TOP NOTCH! IF YOUR GOING HYD. ROLLER, I WOULDN'T PUT ANYTHING ELSE IN MY MOTOR. FOR SOLID ROLLER I FIRMLY BELIEVE IN THE BEST CROWERS YOU CAN BUY. (cheap solid roller lifters is what caused me to have to rebuild my motor twice. the second time it happen, I flushed the motor and stuck another lifter in it....it didn't last a long time and the shavings destroyed my crank and pistons).

Yes I am not going to risk it. Both motors are coming out this Saturday, and going to JimV for inspection. Then both motors are getting the crane 741 cams, new hydraulic roller lifters, new push rods, and new valve springs. While they are there Jim is going to be giving both sets of heads some custom work also. I hope to be creeping up on the 600hp mark.

I was told the boat went 75 mph on gps with the current motor setup. With almost an extra 100 hp a side, what do you think my speeds will look like, with proper prop change of course?

its takes alot of power increase to see more noticle speed out of a boat, but props chamge it alot more then hp changes.

75 on GPS with basically 500's is pretty optimistic. With 420HP per side these were 60-63mph boats. I'd say with merc 500's, maybe, MAYBE 70 with a tailwind, no fuel, and one person on board. 600HP mills, i think then you will see 75 honest mph out of that hull.

Heading The Right Direction
 

Good To Hear Your Tearing It Down Rob! Your Doing The Right Thing.
I Really Feel For You. Looking At This Situation From A "glass Half Empty" Perspective.....at Least It Happen At The End Of The Season And Not In The Beginning. You've Got All Winter To Fix It Right And You'll Be Good To Go In The Spring!
Let Us Know What The Failure Was When You Find It. I Kind Of Scanned Over All The Post So I Dont Know If You Had Already Located The Issue Or Not. I Suspect You'll Either Find A Lobe That's Destroyed And/or A Lifter With A Torn Up Or Missing Wheel. Good Luck To You! Mark

nice:drink::drink:

Today is the day the motors are coming out. Before the weekend is done they will be sittong in JimV's shop. So this new idea has been floating aroud my head of having Jim either go crazy with my iron heads or going with some dart pro 1's or the afr heads. I would love to be at 600 hp or even a touch more. Here is the quick list on what these motors have/will have.
HP 500 base motors
9.5 cr
bigger oil pans (not sure which ones's)
crane 741
hyrdraulic roller lifters
crane 1.7 rockers
dart hp 500 intake
holley hp 500 carb
stainless marine long risers exhaust system's
now what can be done with stock heads and Jim's work versus aftermarket one's. I have searched many threads on here and have seen this package make 600-640hp with lower cr. Some day I would like to run m-3 prochargers on these and make 750-800hp, but for right now I would like to see 600hp when they come back out of the shop. I guess I am looking for any comments or information on what we be the best way to go regarding the heads and the build as a hole.

Of course if you can swing some new aluminum heads, that would be the way to go. Especially, if you have plans for a blower in the future. Aluminum heads will allow for a little more compression, as they dissapate combustion chamber heat better. I would touch base with Jim on AFR Vs. Dart, etc. While some heads flow better on the bench, there are issues with some of them when it comes to design and install issues. I would go with his recommendation and what he has experiance using/working with.

As for the blowers, my personal preferance would be going with a roots blower. Something like a 8-71. prochargers are nice, but too many people i know who run them, have issues. I guess there is a reason if you look in the classifieds, majority of all the 700-1000+ HP motors are using roots blowers. they just flat out work in a boat. But, keep in mind, your drives will not last but a few weekends if you do this!!! Adding some 8-71's to your 600HP mills, will put you in the 750-800HP range. Unless you are running ssm drives, or arnesons, i wouldnt do it.

With 600 per side, your boat should be running upper 70's. And still gonna have to baby them drives.

Spent the morning at Jim's shop, what a great great guy. He took the motor in question apart right in front of me so we could determine the problem. The lifter on the number two exhaust manifold was junk. Large flat spots on the roller, and needle bearings gone. Cam lobe took a little beating also. Anyways Jim will be tearing down, checking crank and everything else just to be sure. Then all the new parts:) He was just a awesome guy and answered all of my questions. Sounds like 600hp will not be out of reach. It was a good day, and I feel like I am in very good hands!

Its always good to actually find a problem, rather than mystery ones in my opinion. Im sure Jim will have you up and running so next season you'll be running and enjoying the boat!