Engine tick/knock? Please help!!!
 

Hey guys, I just picked up a formula 357 with brand new, fresh rebult carbed 1996 hp 500's in it. Motors have under 5 hours each on them. Splashed it today for the 1st time before I winterize it. Ran them for about an hour never over 4000 rpm's to let them break in. Everything was going awesome until we where just putiing it back on the trailer and I noticed the the starboard motor had a little tick coming from it. So I opened the engine hatch which made it easier to hear and made it a little louder. The tick flucuates with rpm, and from what I can tell it coming from the top end maybe? These motors where built by a very reputable engine builder, and I have build sheets and dyno sheets also. There where very high dollar parts put back in these motors. Anyways feeling a little sick to my stomach at this point. I am no engine guru, but my gut feeling it lifter, valve train related? Yes the motors had all brand new lifters, cams, springs, valves, and keepers. Is there any adjustment in these that could be causing the problem? Does anyone have any ideas or thoughts on this situation. Thanks in advance!!!

Make sure it is not just the exhaust flappers rattling, frakin' ya out.

Could be several things. However, IF you have a flat tappet cam, there is a chance you lost a cam lobe, since the motor is new, and thats usually when a cam goes flat. I would pop the valve covers off, and take a look at the rockers, springs, etc. Check for loose rockers. A little side to side play is normal, but not excessive and no up/down play.

It could be something like a broken rocker arm nut too. I have seen poly locks crack and fail.

Ticking is usually valve train. Dull thud sounding knocking is usually bottom end.

Ya, that too! The ones i heard usually sound like a knocking/thumping kinda rattle. Jamming a broomstick handle up the tailpipe to hold them open while testing works.

also a exhaust manifold gasket leak will make about the same sound,,,, check the bolts

Check the pulleys to make sure they are tight. My brand new motor sounded like it broke a valve spring or rocker arm stud. Checked it out and the crank pulley had come loose. Jeff Wurl

Thanks so far guys I am going to look into the above items and see what we can come up with. Another question, the other motor has a faint marbley noise coming from under the valve covers. Do roller rockers make any noise?

yup,,,,rollers are noisy

Okay got the valve covers pulled, and it seems to me that all the rockers are loose, with a couple being very loose. I can pick up on the roller end, and probably have a 16th of an inch between roller and top of valve. The are crane roller rockers 1.7 lift. Could this be giving be both the marbley noise, and the tick/light knock? Also how do I go about adjusting these properly?

Bring the number one cylinder to TDC. Loosen the rocker arm stud on both valves and then tighten one up while slowly turning the pushrod with your fingertips. When the pushrod can't be turned then stop and adjust the nut down 1/2 to 3/4 turn more. Then do the other one on number one cylinder. Here's the sequence...you can adjust the exhaust valves on cylinders 1,3,4, and 8. Then you can adjust the intake valves on 1,2,5, and 7. All done the same way by turning the pushrod...etc etc. Rotate the engine one full turn or 180 degrees coming back to the zero timing mark. Now number 6 cylinder is up in firing position. Adjusting the rest of the valves in this order....exhaust on 2,5,6, and 7...then the intake on 3,4,6,and 8.

Rob that is very loose were any of the nuts loose on the rocker arm
studs. I would look at the rocker arms for any defects like I was saying today.

I only got the one valve cover pulled on the starboard engine pulled today, but I suspect they will all be loose. Yes Dennis I am going to give them a good look before putting them back in. Okay so a couple more newbie stupid questions. Can you show me a quick diagram of which cylinder is which if I am sitting in the bench seat back words looking at the motor (looking at the harmonic balancer. Also I assume the exhaust valve's are the one's closest to the exhaust manifold's, and the intake valve's are closest to the intake manifold? Determining tdc on number one cylinder would be pulling the plug and bring the piston to the top of the compression stroke correct? And I take it the alan screw in the center of the larger nut is the set screw, so I would loosen the set screw, tighten the bigger nut, then tighten the alan screw to keep the nut there correct? Sorry for all the question's, just don't want to effff up my new motor's.

sitting looking at the front of the motor, the front cylinder on your right is the #1. Front end, port side of the engine. Port side is the #1,3,5,7, Starboard side is #2,4,6,8.

On the cylinders that you say you have 1/16 of play, if you can not move the rocker arm nut withyour fingers, they did not back off and you need to do some further reasearch as to why they are not set correctly. Intake valves are offset to the top, exhaust are the lower ones. Or just look at the valve in relation to the intake and exhaust ports.
I have had one rocker arm back off before but never several.

You can determine TDC by rotating the crank until the timing mark lines up with 0 on the timing tab, AND #1 cylinder valves are closed.

You can adjust the valves like obnoxus said, or you can do one cylinder at a time. Say you are on the #1 Cylinder. When the exhaust valve starts to open, adjust the intake. When the intake opens, and just starts to close, adjust the exhaust. Either way works. Basically what you want to do is adjust the lash while the lifter is on the heel or base of the cam(not on the lobe).

Also, when I adjust them, I do zero lash, then 1/2 turn, then i tighten the poly lock allen screw. THen, i hold the allen wrench, and box wrench, and turn them both about 1/8th of a turn. This helps snug them and keeps them from backing off.

At this point though, if all the rocker nuts are still tight (you should rotate the engine little by little and keep checking tightness), my guess here is gonna be you are losing your cam.

If they were adjusted wrong from the get go, they should have made noise all along. Not just start all of a sudden. I can see maybe one or two coming loose as a freak thing, but not several. I'd pull the oil filter off, and chisel it open. If theres lots of metal in there, you lost your cam. Highly unlikley if its a roller cam, but if its a flat tappet, very likely.

I agree with Mild Thunder. I would check your oil first. If you have a flat tappet cam it could be very likely you wiped off a lobe. I bought a boat that had a solid flat tappet cam in it and the guy told me the rockers need adjusting thats why the lifters were making so much noise. Which didn't seem unordinary since a solid cam needs rocker adjustments periodically. When we checked the rockers they were all loose and we just adjusted them. I ran 1 time on the water and it had no power. Tore the motor down and I had wiped off 9 lobes on the cam and put shavings all in the motor. Be safe and go ahead and check for metal instead of wiping out the motor.

OKay I am trying to absorb all of this information you guys are giving me. Thanks so much for all of the input thus far. OKay I need to call the engine builder and find out what cam is in the starboard motor. The port motor is making the marbely noise under the valve cover's like all the rocker's are loose. I know for a fact it has a crane hydralic roller cam and crane roller rocker's. It was making no noise until after our 1 hour trip, now it sounds like all the rocker's are loose. But from what you guys are saying it sounds very unlikely to take out a roller cam. The motor only had 30 mins on brand new everything, so are these valve springs just breaking in and need adjusting now? The second motor has 3-4 hours on it, and also has loose rocker's but I do not know 100% for sure yet what cam it has in it. I know it is a different cam because they where able to re use it when they rebuilt this engine. This engine has loose rocker's but also as the much louder tick/knock in it. Both motors where rebuilt at the same time but then the port motor dropped a valve which is why it has only 30 mins on it. When it blew it needed new cam at that time which is why I know it has the roller crane in it. I just can't imagine all these rockers being set wrong from a proffessional engine builder.

Maybe the engine builder isnt that proffesional. Sounds like a lot of issues for fresh motors.

Rocker adjustment should not need to be messed with after intial setup with hydraulic lifters. If everything is right, they should be adjusted, locked down, and be done.

I'd be pulling all the valve covers and taking a look and feel. I'd also be cutting the oil filters open and also taking a look. They're easy to remove, easy to cut open, and cheap to replace.

You said your motors are 1996 HP500's. They SHOULD have roller cams. I think they stopped using flat tappets in that motor in 94-95?

Keep in mind the rockers will all have a little side to side wiggle even when adjusted properly and the valve is closed.

Probably a dumb question, but these are "new" motors. What kind of oil pressure were you seeing? Hydraulic lifters work off oil pressure, and reversed oil lines, broken pump pickup tube, and several other things can cause problems.

OKay I think I got some good news. I called the engine builder today and he was very helpful. Both of these engine's where set up the same, with crane roller cams and SOLID roller lifter's, with crane roller rocker's. They are adjusted to 10 thousands lash and am being told the marbely sound under the valve covers (especially aluminum one's) is very normal with solid roller lifter's. So that explains the one motor, now I just need to find that tick/knock in the other one. Does this new info line up with what the engine builder is telling me? How often should the solid lifter setup be checked and or adjusted?

If I was you I would take the boat back to the engine builder and have him check it out.

ahhh.....solids, well that changes things a bit. My buddy that used to run solids did his once a season. Not sure if they needed it or not. Either way , thats longer than 1 hour.

The marbly noise is normal for the rollers. I guess at this point, you might as well do your first valve adjustment and see if the noise goes away.

Fixx
 

+1 on taking it back to the builder,,only 5hr's on the engines at that...let him do it this way he cant say " you over adjusted them " and put the blame on you for the noise and just in case theirs something else wrong..
also .010 on a solid lifter cam don't sound rite to me, they are usually in the high teen's or twenty's(with the engine HOT)...

what is the grind # and ill tell you the proper adjustment..

.010 is a bit tight. Mine were set at .018 but the cam card called for like .025. Made a bit more power with a tighter lash.

To hell with solids anyway, I have hydraulic now and still spin the same RPM. Modern Hydraulic lifters, while pricey, can easily spin 6000rpm with a good setup.

crane hydraulic roller special part #168731 grind #hr-226/345-2s-12ig. I have both valve covers off now, and am checking lash.

Fixx
 

ok at first you said solid roller and now their hydraulic rollers??? now im a bit confused....

o zero lash then 3/8 turn snug center allen then another 1/8 on the outter hex nut on the poly lock.

I think they are hyd roller cams but ther are using solid lifters in it. I have seen that done before.

Fixx
 

If that's the case then he better figure out what he has before he toughes anything..ot take it back to the builder and let them do it..

Solid cams have a gentle ramp to take up the clearance. Juice lifters stay tight on the cam all the time, so no clearance ramp. Since you have to have some clearance with solids- between .0005" and .009", depending on the cam profile and whether the heads and block are iron or aluminum - adjustment is critical and will have to be done often.
No, it shouldn't be done - bad science and a pain to keep the lifters adjusted on the knife edge. A couple of thou too tight and disaster happens, a couple of thou too loose and it is like the castanet tango under there. Some cam profiles in some aluminum heads will drive you crazy with the noise.

If the machinest didnt put restrictors in the block to keep the oil flow the the lower part of the engine i would go to a isky or a moral hydraulic roller lifter...

Okay to clarify, they are hydraulic roller cams, with solid roller lifters, and roller rocker's. I just double and triple checked all valve lash on the motor with the tick/knock. I think I found the problem. I have one reading as low as 5 thousands, but most are between10-18 thousands. Now Dennis remember the valve cover you thought the tick was under, well the #2 cylinder exh valve has 40 thousands lash. You can literally pick up the end of the rocker and let it fall on the valve stem and duplicate the noise only softer of course because there is no load on it like when it's running. Does this sound like what could be causing all of my issues? So what should I be setting lash at, and how hard would it be to convert to hydraulic roller lifters, do the motor's have to come out for that?

You have solids on a Hyd Roller cam. They will make noise. I know a lot of people that run that setup. They usually lash them between 0.004"-0.006" They run the solids cause the Hyd Roller lifters do not like to spin pass the higher RPM's. There is a few threads on here about that.

Engines do not have to come out to go to Hyd Roller lifters.

So tomorrow night I am going to follow the advise given here, and set number 1 to tdc adjust exh valve on cylinder # 1,3,4,8 and intake valve #1,2,5,7, then rotate 1 turn so number six is at tdc, and adjust exh valve #2,5,6,7 and intake valve #3,4,6,8 to 5 thousands across the board? Then fire it up correct? If these should be adjusted between 5-6 thousands then I would say at 40 she was making the noise for sure!!! Also I just tighten the rocker with the feeler gauge between the rocker and the valve stem to set lash correct?

I would double check with the builder that you do in fact have a hyd. roller cam and solid roller lifters, and see what they recommend for valve lash settings.

I would also be prepared to quickly shut it off when you "fire it up," just in case.

Fixx
 

you will have to drain the blocks and remove the intake manifolds to replace the lifters and probablt the pushrods.

pull the filter on that engine and punch a hole in it and cut it open witha pair of tin snips,,look into the center of the filter for metal shavings..may not be the case of the cam lobe going south but i would still check it..

If you haven't set lash before I would not be learning on this. You need to know where the base of the cam is in correlation to the valve timing events. It's been since last winter when I last did mine. The base of the cam is not symmetrically round so you lash cam vary on the bottom of the cam.
Who built the engines?? You can PM me if you don't want to air it out or just don't want to say I understand.

Rob you can do it in the boat you just need to take off your intake manifold.

Just a thought here, but if the lash was that far out of wack and inconsistent, I would look at all possibilities. Check the rocker studs to make sure they are torqued correctly, next make sure the push rod cups on the rockers are still there and not cracked and the pushrod tips are not flattened. Are the threads of the rocker studs in good shape and are the poly-lock nuts in good shape and does the inner set screw turn smoothly. there is only two reasons why your lash was so far off, either the builder had his lackey lash the engine or something is broken. Depending on how far the builder is from the boat I would insist that he show you how HE wants the lash adjusted. Any reputable engine builder should want to show you how it is done to cover their a$$.

Solid lifters will make a lot more noise than hydraulic. 10 thousandths seems very tight for solids, but all the solids I ran were in cars with flat tappet cams. They were set to about .020-.022.
The noise you are hearing on the one engine could easily be one out of adjustment.

I would check the adjustment at the beginning of every season or every 40-50hrs.

I would definately get rid of the solid lifters and switch to hydraulic lifters. I really can't understand why the builder did that in the first place.
You only need to pull the intake to swap lifters.

Yep the plan is to re adjust the current solid lifter set up, and make sure that takes care of my noise. I am almost positive it's that rocker at .040 making all the noise. Then I can winterize the engine's, and sleep at night knowing my motors are okay. Then I think we will be looking into a hydraulic roller lifter set up over the winter.

valve adjustment
 

This is the method I have used for years to adjust my solid roller motors and works very well for me. I have found it to be very easy and have never had any issues doing it this way. Just throwing this method out there for ya.......good luck!

When the Exhaust valve starts to open....adjust the intake valve (for the same cylinder)

When the intake valve opens & starts to close adjust the exhaust
valve (for the same cylinder)