XR Damage
 

Gotta be honest. I figured most of the stories on later model XR's having failures and gear issues that caused those failures was just a lack of ability to operate. Maybe some neglect thrown in there etc.

The oil in this thing has always been "darker" than what I like but there has never been any real dirt or large pieces on the magnets. I get some powder but figured it was normal as this is the only drive I've owned with straight cut hears.

This last oil change a few days ago came with some funky oil in the bottle. It looked as if the oil in the bottom of the bottle had a "jello" type texture to it.

Drained the bottle and rinsed along with flushing the line out.

Thought, what the heck - pull the caps off the drive and do a quick visual. My pictures are not very good but there is one particular tooth where the crack is on the center edge. It's getting ready to let go and I caught this before I refilled it and went to the bay.

Pretty disheartening. I was under the impression that with a very light boat like mine and pumping out 600 HP best case, this XR "should" be bullet proof for my application. I was wrong.

It has barely 100 hours of run time. During which, I've changed the oil 4 times.

It hasn't seen any abuse like my earlier drives did ( I was hard on'em). No burnt oil and no stink so no sign of heat anywhere (nothing discolored).

So the question I have is this: Do I buy another set of gears with a huge price tag for what they are and wait for it to happen again?

Do I replace the gear set and sell the drive? And if so, what should I replace it with?

Now, those posts from Gadgets are all coming back to me and unless I want to just walk away from it, there really isn't an "easy" clear choice.

Sux.

You got off easy !!!!!!!!!!! Usually you get to buy a complete upper , and you only need a gear set . One of murc's greatest money makers I'm sure . Been there done that ! :eek:

My opinion is to replace the XR gears with X gears. Properly setup and driven with respect, it will out live the XR at your power level in my opinion.

Dick

Mr gadgets, what's the difference between the X gears and std bravo gears?

Steel tower, thicker floor. Keeps it from pushing the floor out of the driven gear.

$1,100 for a 3 piece gearset tends to tilt the stomach though..

:lolhit: and this goes back to my previous comment not having a very easy or clear choice...

Thanks for your emails !

So when yours broke did you also replace the lower gears? I've lost enough "hard" metal that some of it may be trapped in bearings so it needs to fully come apart. Those little thrust bearings, needle bearings and stuff tends to hold dirt.

gear sets
 

I feel your pain ... had to replace both XR gear sets last spring. I change the oil every 10 hours . Amsoil 75-110 works best for me.
It looks like your gears are trashed after just 100 hrs ... :eek:

Just so we're clear, if I had run the boat this summer with typical use I would not have made it through SIX MONTHS. Actually, at 300 + hours a year even less...

Unbelievable really.

:picard1:

The middle picture in the top row looks like a really deep wear pattern in the mesh to me.

$1100 ... is a good price ... they list for 1900 ish . I paid 1280 per set and thought that was good . Price didn't include any bearings .

So if we did this and considering the reduction on this drive is done in the lower...

What X gearset would you install in the upper to make the 1.5 work?

Or, are you assuming that you'd just get a 1.5 upper set and then buy a 1 to 1 set for the bottom?

The guy i bought the drive from quoted me that price to help me out.

I got the drive with no warranty while still new.

Tell me where I can buy NEW gear sets for 1100.00 and I will buy 2 sets right now !!!!!!

I don't think you can. I never meant to imply that you or someone else can...

The guy I bought my drive from offered to sell them for that price after I gave him my sob story...

He's probably smart enough to know I would not need more than one. LOL..

I hear ya though! I have friends in the industry and his price is about 200 bucks cheaper than what they could do for me.

And I mow his yard every week for food only!!!

:grinser010:

When mine broke it had less than 20 hours on it . I took the lower apart and checked for parts and everything was good. Cleaned it and put it back together. Running Imco lowers so I guess I got lucky as well. It broke 1 tooth and rolled it threw the gear set which pushed the cap off and broke the housing . 1 phone call to Gavin marine & $3200 (at the time, now 4200) later I was good to go. Best of luck Jeff

So you too bought a brand new one with no warranty?

Thanks!

Looks just like a gear set I have sitting in the garage now. Only mine didnt make 80 hours. You wont get the XR gears to last, especially when running any kind of power.

I thought that was the whole point of going to an XR from a standard Bravo. I went for 5 years with a 468 with around 500 HP in a Hammer. Moved up to a 555 with 610 HP and at the end of the first season had some pretty heavy metal attached to the magnet. I purchased an XR with a -2 Sportmaster and all seemed to be well at the end of the season. Am I doomed to failure as well or is the weight of the boat a factor?

Less than 6000 LBS loaded and I bought it for the same reason you did.

I can't say you will have same problem but I will say you better keep your eye on it.

Cost less to fix if you catch it before it comes apart.

you forgot about grooming his dog and washing his truck:lolhit::angry-smiley-038::party-smiley-004:

It sounds to me like Mr G has the hot ticket with changing out the xr gears to x gears. Anyone know the cost of an x gear set?

you should put fresh XR gears in one of your drives and Mr g's x gears in the other and let us know which ones last longer :party-smiley-004:

Now that's a idea West cost!! That might just give us an idea what is what.
One thing, XR gears from 5yrs back, would hold up for a while. Usual time was 250-300hrs, with 600-700hp. I had one friend that ran 1170hp in a light boat and it was WOT passes all weekend long. He would get about 60-70hrs out of a set of uppers and lowers. Just regular maintenance for him.
I have over 300hrs on my B1-XR at about 700hp. The older gears were built better. They would last longer and the lash variation was minimal. These days, a boat like SD's should go 300hrs.. but they wont. The problem with the netforged upper gears is spreading to the lower gears also. I see the same results with upper and lower gears, pitting at an early age. It seems there are some that will live longer. That tells me they are not all the same. Different batches? Different suppliers? I dont know, I do know, they dont last long anymore.
Now the track record for the Imco SCX gears is much better. So why cant Merc sell the same type of gear??

SD, Actually the 1.5 ratio is made up with the combination of gears in upper and lower. The helical upper gears can be had in 1.36, 1.5, 1.65. And the lower gears can be had in 1.36, 1.5, 1.65. You mix and match to get a result.
When the XR gears came out, you can only get the 16/19 set. So they offered different lower gears to make the ratios that used to be made in the helical uppers.

That being said. The 1.5 helical upper X gears are about $980. The 1.36 upper gears are about $860. So you would think that would be the way to go. But the 1.36 upper gear teeth are narrower than the 1.5 (will call this a weak point). So if you want the 1.36 ratio, I put the 32/27 upper gear set (1.5) and the 15/17 lower gear set (1.36) to make a stronger setup. Now the hard part to swallow is that the 15/19 (1.50 is about $560 and the 15/17 (1.36) is over $850.

The least expensive way to go is the 1.5 ratio. If you are not in the top of the prop pitch range, you are better off with the 1.5, in my opinion. Some people have seen some likeable traits with the 1.36 in there combinations.. so the more expensive route is recommended.. Going fast isnt an econimcal sport.. :(

Now it is the Christmas season and it is time for us to all pony up for the bean counters at Merc. Every year the big ticket items from Merc get a price increase after the first of the year.. So all this talk about expensive gears will be a mute point when the are repriced and are even more expensive. Merry Christmas Merc!! :(

But are you confusing an X with an XR now? There are no helical gears in this drive.

So what I wanted to know is if you would have to certainly replace the lowers in my drive even if they are fine?

I would need a 1.5. Anything else and I have to re-prop all over again and it's expensive and time consuming.

Would the fact that the lowers are completely submerged in oil full-time have anything to do with them lasting longer or no??

The uppers are not submerged. The drive gear or "pinion" is about half way. The forward driven gear is under at slow speeds but it is pushing a lot of the oil off of it as it turns faster.

The reverse gear is out of the oil and just gets a light bath from the journals coming out of the cap...

Also, are the lower gears the same as the Bravo I and I X or does the XR have bigger lowers as well?

I've seen them both in hand and I can't remember the XR's being any different but I've only had one XR lower apart in my life.

And so far I'm convinced I can find the XR uppers without buying them from Merc. We'll see if I crash and burn.

I was referring to the X gears. Swapping from XR upper gears to X upper gears you would use the XZ gear set. They are the same as the X gears for the B1, except the pinion gear accepts the larger XR yoke.
The XR's ratio is changed in the lower. The B1's used to be changed in the upper, but the better way to do it is with lower gears.

If 1.5 is what you have and what you want to stay with, then the lowers would be the same in either case, and would stay.

If you can get gears from someone other than Merc, they are still made by Merc. No one as of yet, has successfully marketed a replacement set of gears.
I did hear of gears being made at one time a few years back. But they never showed up on the market.
If someone would do it.. it would be great!! For the cost of making replacement gears for the XR.. you could buy a truck load of SCX's.
That is the easy way out for reverse engineering the XR gears. :(

Hmmmm

The box of broken parts I have out of an X drive look the same as my XR parts regarding the input shaft and the other end of it. The gear looks like the only difference.

Could there be different versions?

Mercury doesn't make gears. They sub it out to contract and then resell it.

I know for fact the X gears can be bought at Kaman. I've not ever tried to buy the XR gears there. Regardless, someone is making them for Merc even if we can't get our hands on the supplier (may be under contract to not offer on open market).

When you put X gears in the XR case, do you still use shimming with merc part numbers etc or do you have to use your own secret formula??

What do you typically charge to do this?

And yes, I have 1.5 ratio.

Thanks Dick!

The X gears in the XZ drive have the same size splined shaft for the input yoke. Meaning an XR input shaft will fit the XZ pinion gear. The driven helical gears are the same. Only diff is the size of the input in the pinion gear.

You are correct, Merc doesnt make them, they have some one else make them. I am surprized that Kaman can get and sell them. Merc usually ties things up, so you cant. Be interesting to find out if they can get the XR's.
The shimming method is the same. Just different numbers on lash. The new method that came out with the hump backs is the common method for all the Merc Bravo's.

I will have to pm you on the last question.. :(

Dick

My ignorance showing here but,

Will the Imco SCX gears fit into the Merc Bravo XR case?

No sir. Only the SC gears will fit cause they "are" the XR gears..

No ignorance. Asking is usually how you make a decision or learn something.

Thanks

So then are the Imco SC gears any "better" than the Merc XR's?

Or are we talking the same chit in a different package?

XZ gears have a much finer helical cut face. The setup needs to be perfect for long life. The XR is a straight cut similar to gears used in a tractor. They are much more forgiving on the setup.....

No, the SC gears are XR gears, just in an Imco SC case.

The SCX on the other hand uses totally new gears, much larger, that wont fit in an SC or XR case.

What I see in your pictures, is just the nature of the beast. It does happen, but I can say not very often, I've been building outdrives for 30 some years, And Bravos ever since they've been out. I have had very little trouble with XR gears. And I've done many of them on all sizes of boats from 700hp and down. And very very little failure. They are a fussy gear that needs to realy be set properly. There is no room for error. I've got large boats with 700 plus hp and getting 400 hours and better on them. A lot of my customers are Poker Run customers. So they run hard.

Imco wanted to use a different gear but it's just not cost effective to find the source etc.

So they built a drive using the same gear that is still a little "better" than the XR depending on how you look at it.

There are NO cathodics so you're screwed in salt but the case is designed way better in my opinion. It moves a much higher volume of oil around. The cooling shower is built in and distributed nice and even. Finally, the case is thicker in areas and is built to lower the amount of tower flex and movement so everything is better "contained".

I've been to their facility a couple times and took some tours. It's a super nice product but mainly for fresh water use.

Doesnt happen that often? Seems like every drive guy I talk to, including Mr. Gadgets, says that the new XR gears are garbage, no matter how they are set up. The face hardness wears off when running any kind of power through them and once that happens, its into the soft metal. Game Over.

Here is my lower driven gear with 59 hours at 800hp and 25 hours at 750hp. Pushing a relatively light boat at around 4600lbs.

http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/v...9/IMG_0718.jpg

I too have a growing collection of junk
XR gearsets, from my own boat and a friends.

I also originally thought that it was driver error or
set up issues also( before I had a boat with XR's) but it's
not.

Seems like it's a 50-50 chance on getting a good set.

I equate it to laying down sod over dirt that is
littered with junk.

It looks good initially, but pretty soon the uglyness
starts showing up:eek:

I've had them pit out ( like the pictures), crack and shear the cone off the gear, and the fun one, break a tooth off and junk out the case.:eek:

If and when the next set crap out, I'll probably switch
to X gears

..