got ripped off on some parts and machine work, need advice..
 

I need a little advice, I got the short end of the stick on some used parts that are worn out/wrong and machine work which was never done from a supposed "reputable" marine shop so I need a little advice on the best way to try to get my $$ back .

Heres the story, I bought a bunch of as he called them “very good shape, low hour” parts that included a hp 500 carb roller cam, retro fit roller lifters, pushrods, and timing set. I also had the same shop “freshen” my heads up to work with these parts I bought since my motor had 500 hours on it. This shop also assured me the hp 500 carb cam wouldn’t revert water with short silent choice risers I have. I got all these parts earlier in the year but hadn’t pulled any of these parts out to really check them over till about 3 weeks ago since the weather sucks here...

anyway I pull the lifters out to clean them off and find the lifters visibly worn at both ends were they fit in the bore, and .001” smaller in diameter than the 500 hour old flat tappet lifters that came out of my motor. I also find 2 of the intake pushrods are .050 shorter than the rest (length stamped right on them). After researching the hp 500 cam a few months ago I find out its known to revert water, especially with short risers….

Now to the heads that were supposed to be freshened, NONE of the valves or chambers were cleaned at all, still loaded with 500 hours worth of carbon and combustion deposits. None of the valves or seats were ground, none of the valve springs were shimmed at all to set proper height, used springs were put in the heads. The retainer to valve seal clearance was as low as .605” on some of the valves with the valves closed and the hp 500 cam is .598” lift so that would leave .007” clearance at full lift, last I knew you needed at least .060 minimum clearance at full lift.

I called the shop and told them I wanted to sell the parts back since I found these lifter worn ETC and I lied to them and said that I was running tight on money and was going to just put it back together stock that way I wouldn’t have to flat out say “you sold me junk and ripped me off” and turn this it into a big pissing contest. Well They said they didn’t have the money to do that, but they had another set of lifters he could swap out . so I told them I would call them back in a week and see if they had any $$ to buy these parts back since they were supposedly getting paid for some motors they built that week and if they didnt get the money then I would get the other lifters from them. I try calling them back in about a week and they wont answer my calls or return the phone messages I left for 4 days in a row, or the emails I sent. So I call from another phone so my number doesn’t show on his caller id and magically the phone is answered right away so I tell them I want to get those lifters now since they still don’t have any $$ to buy the parts back and now they tell me they don’t actually have the lifters in hand, there at somebody elses house and he hasn’t had time to go get them. WTF…

I have left another 5 messages this week, got no return calls, no responses to my email, or text messages. Obviously the guy is ducking my calls.

Funny part is I see the owner of this shop has time to post right here on this very website about upcoming poker runs, and selling more used parts In the swap shop section here on this site, but he cant return calls or emails from a customer that’s getting the shaft from his shoddy work.

They don’t even know that i discovered all the issues about the heads not being done right yet as I just found that out last week when i opened the bag the heads were in, and since they wont talk to me on the phone i havent been able to tell them i found that stuff out.

I have had 2 marine engine builders look at these heads in the past 2 days (one is very highly regarded on this site) and both said the valves were never removed from the heads and no work was done to them except a spring swap, so now I’m shelling out $$ AGAIN to get these heads freshened at another shop since the first guy didn’t actually do anything to them except slap in used springs.


So what do I do next, take them to small claims court, other options????? Obviously I cant just walk in there a put a gun to his head to try to get my money back or i will end up in jail. Does small claims court do these type of cases???? Any other ideas???


heres a small sample of my pics of the parts and heads


any advice would be appreciated as i dont enjoy getting screwed out of $1000:ernaehrung004:

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...s/IMG_3710.jpg

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...s/IMG_3729.jpg

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...s/IMG_3688.jpg

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...s/IMG_3687.jpg

You bet, small claims court is easy and quick. I would send the business a certified letter first asking that the problem be corrected. Then no reply or a reply you don't like, take your evidence and unanswered letter to court. I would probably just go by the business and tell them there was some oversight on their part and you want it corrected. I'm a firm believer in trying to work something out before court tho.

Sorry this happened to ya sir.

1). Why havent you gone over there yourself ? You keep leaving messages.

2). I know this is something you already figured out...but you should only do business with shops that your friends or acquaintances have dealt with.

3). You didnt look at the head work, or the other parts BEFORE you paid the guy ?

4). I'd say court is your best shot at this point sir.

Good Luck. :drink:

if he is on OSO he likely will see your post, simply confront him in person and have him make it right, if he won't.... take him to court with your proof and expert opinion on the repair. Simple as that, sue him and don't waste your summer on this...also post your experience on beware/stolen to get more feedback...good luck!

1: its 1.5- 2 hours from my house, tolls to get there also. i really dont want to spend that time in a car, gas, tolls, lose time from work, ETC just to find nobody at the shop when i get there since he wont answer the phone to let me know he's actually there... plus he told me to text him in the past since its easier for him, he wont reply to anything now...


2: this guy used to have a good rap, after shooting out some emails today to some guys i know that did business with him in the past that it seems that reputation has changed very recently....

3: well i didnt think the guy was gonna screw me so i didnt dig into everything. the heads were all in plastic bags so i didnt want to unwrap all this stuff since it was still snowing outside and i had to load all this stuff into my car. also theres really no way to check valve to seal clearance on an assembled head when you pick them up. i suppose i would have seen the dirty valves but that wouldnt tell me if the seats and valves were ground. all the pushrods were ziptied together so i didnt see the 2 wrong length ones. the lifters were all in a bag and covered in oil when i got them so i didnt dig into them when i got them. and to top it off i blew my back out the day after i picked the heads up so i couldnt hardly walk for a few weeks let alone check all the work out....

trust me I'm not gonna waste my summer!!! the heads are getting the seats and valves ground now as i dropped them off last night, and my custom ground cam should be here in 5 days! luckily the lake is still pretty cold (42 degrees...bbbrrrrrr) so i havent missed anything yet!:ernaehrung004:

if you got paper work and pictures of what he sold you, just file a claim in small claims court... ask for the cost of getting the parts right - not for what you paid him. and see what happens... that's what I would do anyhow...

take charge
 

Been there done this.. Take charge but do it correctly.
Face to face is hard to debate issues, try first.
2nd. Send a certified letter(so they must sign for it) and discuss issues and how you want it resolved. Give copies of any paperwork, e-mails, adds or whatever with your letter so they know your not dicking around. GIVE A TIME LINE. do not leave an open ended letter. Ex. your resolve or responce is expected in within 5 working days after which time you will pursue leagal action.
Small claims is only good up to a max ??? dollar amount in your area. Each City is different. Here i's like $2,000
If they have sold faulty items and mis-represented them selves use social networking sites to let people know the truth.
Call OSO and let them know as well. Post it if they don't respond. Let us all know.
However, be honest about everything but let everyone you know what this company has done. Network sites will kill a business and spread like wildfire.
Also, contact your local BBB and file a claim.
Do whats right but do it right and give them a short chance to correct.

I will give you some cheap free legal advice.

You will not get a judgement in any court.
It's like buying a used car, buyer beware.

Sorry just the way it is. I sell and buy all the time on OSO
there are more good people than bad.

And, Yes I have been burned before.

It's pretty well known that a lot of aftermarket roller lifters are made about .001 undersize. Probably because most hobby engine builders don't mic the lifter bores and the lifters before assembling. .001 loose is a lot better than .001 tight. So I wouldn't be too worried about that. But I would never run used lifters. You have no way of knowing how many hours are on them or how they were run. The damage that roller lifters can cause when they fail is scary. Good luck getting your engine running, summer is going to be here soon.

well that may be the case, but at this point in time and how cheap it is to file small claims its worth it to me just to have this guy have to his spend money, time, and tolls to come out here for the case. at least i would get some satisfaction out of that if nothing else.....

I've seen people get favorable judgement on something similar, but it would certainly be a crap shoot... I definately would not spend a ton of time or emotional investment on the outcome. If nothing else, pursuiing it in court will give the gentleman some motivation to think hard about the way he does business... I often let this sort of thing go if it isn't a lot of money, or if I don't have clear, compelling documentation... in NC, small claims max is $5k...

Most importantly, I'm with bigjim on doing business, I've been burned before, but not often - the vast majority of people are honest and straightforward.

The real bottom line whether you get some compensation or not, is whether or not you cut it loose and don't let it bother you down the road. better things to do with time and energy than be pissed at people that don't matter. Just sayin...

What state is this guy in?

NY, close to the buffalo area

Name...and name of his shop/business ?

I'm glad you didn't say PA, there is guy there that keeps getting his azz roasted in the bad bussiness section, he likes to hang out in the swap shop too!!!

HTG (hot to go) motorsports. grand island NY.

Try the BBB first. Might not get anything out of it but its cheap and easy. Before you do anything the more proof in the form of pictures, receipts, statements the better.

Have you tried to get the business to fix the issue? Because no judge is going to rule for you if you never made contact with the business. Also you are dealing with used parts here, if the business in good faith repaired and fixed your boat and the used parts failed its not their fault. The burden of proof is going to be on you to prove they knowling messed up.

Alot of people think its so easy to slap down a claim in court or sue, ITS NOT!!! Why do you think if you want to get any sort of money most people had to get lawyers. I've been around this stuff some what and have some education in it and its not just hunky dory. Alot of cases are dismissed in small claims and I have actually seen the complaintant pay to the defendent. Most cases its where the complaintant loses so the judge awards the defendent with his counter claim of having to take work off to show up and gas mileage.

Step 1 contact business and try to work something out
Step 2 use the BBB
Step 3 Small claims

The thing that sucks about small claims court is if you do get a judgement they can just appeal to state court and then unless you are well versed you will have to get a lawyer.

Been there and done that.

The sad thing is you didn't even have to post this and I knew who you were talking about.

I don't know what happened over there, seems he had a very good thing going for a long time, the last few years his buzz in the marine world has not been good at all. Worse yet check out some of the snowmobile forums, you can track bad service back 5 years on him there.

I have assisted area repair shops in their defense against consumer complaints as a technical advisor. I can tell you that most cases end in a 50/50 split between the consumer and shop in this state. The consumer definately has an adavantage in NYS, I would pursue. However, if he is going out of business your efforts may just award you with a sheet of paper....you can't get blood out of a stone.

4bus,
I snowmobile also, and had always heard good things about HTG in the past, that was one of the reasons i dealt with him and wasnt worried about gettting ripped off. once this deal went south i emailed a few guys i know who race sleds in the syracuse area that i hadnt talked to in a few years, and the feedback i got was not good...

chances are you know some of the same Oneida lake racers i do!:ernaehrung004:

Ya I know a few :grinser010: The lake bars in the fall are a fun place to be, the drunken stories that fly about what guys have for the coming season are comical to listen to before the ice freezes.

Most are refered to as the "Oneida Lake Liars Club" but some are straight shooters.

I live on the lake not far from maple bay where all the racing takes place.

I'm familiar with the "OLLC" :ernaehrung004:

I raced at ESTA for many years, now i pretty much just race out of NYIRP. too much $$$ to run both places, plus i enjoy being on the lake a lot more than the hot race track now at this point in my life!

you bought used parts! end of story. you said yourself you didn't even open the bags when you bought them and you are going to spec these things out like they are suppose to be new, good luck. why would you waste your time buying used parts when you can buy them cheap? i have personally had great relations with this person for many years and you are bound to have a problem sooner or later and he has been nothing but good to me. i know this man well enough that i would stand behind him 100 percent. sounds to me like there is more to this story and i can tell you that you need to go see this person man to man and if he is at fault he will make good on it, take your parts too.

HOLY CRAP !!! Wher did all this come from !!! You sell a guy a "super clean" set of aluminum manifolds and stainless risors for $1250....they are like new. He was whining about the bolts so I have new bolts for him.... Sell him a 500hp roller cam, "used" but like new, hydraulic roller lifters in good shape, 16) 3/8" hardened pushrods in perfect shape and a set of double valve springs to match the cam....$500 ! Then go through his heads ...touch up the seats, install new seals and install the new springs at the proper height for $300.... He complained about the lifters being .001" too small so I said I would swap him for a $500 set....but that deal is off now !!!
AND I would like to know what idiot said the heads were not touched.....seriously !!!!!
SORRY....I try to do good for people who working on a budget...these parts would all work perfect in his boat!! He has my e-mail add and my shop phone and he knows where I am located.... CONTACT ME CAM......I have a good reputation and I don't need you slandering me !!!!
Thanks Rob

When I brought up the lifter issue you did tell me you had ones at your shop to swap out, then when I called you to tell you I wanted to come pick them up you tell me they are at somebodys house and don’t know when you will get them…. I have left MULTIPLE messages for you over the past 2 weeks about wanting to get them and no reply back at all.

Pushrods, 2 of them are the wrong length (2 are 8.500 other 6 are 8.550), sent you a message about that, got no reply to that either…

Heads, you didn’t do anything to them except install used springs, no seats were touched at all, look at the pic I posted of them, do they look touched up?

RMbuilder (bob madara) saw the heads and agreed nothing was done to any of the seats or valves. He also agreed the springs were used, although he did say they looked low hour as there was not much wear on the ends of them. How did you set spring height when there wasn’t one single shim on any of the valve springs??

Another shop also saw the heads and agreed nothing was done to the valves or seats. I wouldn’t be spending $400 getting these heads re-done now as we speak if you did what you said you did. How was that .598 lift cam gonna work with only .605 seal to guide clearance on some valves???? All the guides are having to be shortened to get the proper clearance….

Contact you? I have left about 9 messages over the past 3 weeks that were not returned. Sent you an email also with no reply..…

If anyone has a problem with anything I do come back and see me....I am at HTG 8-5 monday thru friday. I have NEVER sold anybody anything that did'nt work just fine....or I make good on it....HTG phone # is 716-773-6131 If you call my cell phone from a restricted # you probably will not get a response...sorry !
Cam...if you want to bring your stuff back I will match up your pushrods and do a complete $400 valve job for you at no cost....

Sounds like the guy is willing to stand behind his work. Also sounds like he's willing to work with ya on these issues. In the big picture of things, it's not like this was a $30k motor...relax. This is small stuff....let him make it right. :drink:

Sounds like the exact situation I ran into. HTG claims to never have sold a product that didn't work?? I wish I still had pictures of the train wreck pile of **** I got. I feel that you shouldn't have to bring something back and make it right since it should be right the first time. Don't try barking back at me cause you know what you sold me and I know it was intentional. Oh yea, forget about them answering the phone. I've been there to. Have someone else call that has a different area code to see if they are open. Worked for me.

Rob,

all of this could have been avoided by simply returning any of the multiple messages i left by phone in the past 2+ weeks, or replying to the email or text i sent in the past 2+ weeks. when someone is trying to get a part situation resolved and the shop wont respond back to any calls or emails for 2+ weeks what are you supposed to think, or left to do about it???

Honestly,
do you think i'm making this stuff up about the pushrods, or valves and seats not being touched, clearance not right, ETC?

what motivation would i have by making this stuff up?? i have nothing to gain by it. all this is doing is costing me MORE $$$ and loosing me more time.

i wanted to have my motor done and in my boat 3 about weeks ago instead i had to take my heads to another shop last saturday to get them done so i might actually get in the water this summer... so i have to cough up close to $1000 between the headwork and the lifters. trust me i wouldnt be spending $1000 of my money on this stuff to just try to make you look bad.

as for your offer, its too late on the heads, as i said i took them elsewhere on sat 5/7/11. new lifters are ordered also, they will be here tommorow... i paid you already to freshen my heads up so I'm failing to see how this offer helps me out?

basically the only way to make it right with me would be get me the the matched set of 8 pushrods, get me good the used roller lifters we talked about in mid April, and refund me the $300 for head work. or refund me the $300 for the headwork and the $650 for all the other parts i bought and i will bring every single part back to you. The choice is yours.

Sounds like he's back peddling to me. Why is it so hard to make things right the first time? Funny how peoples phones start working again when their name gets on this site. Also why would someone not get a call back if it came from a restricted #

I have bought and traded things with Rob and was allways treated well. He is alittle hard to get on the phone because he,s hands on always in the shop.

If the no.s restricted HELLO what no do you CALL BACK

OK...did a little research this morning...found the notes from last november on what we did... When I personally delivered the exhauxt manifolds and valve train to Cam's house in Rochester I realised, like lots of people in this world including myself, Cam is boating on a budget. I brought more parts than he expected and he did not have all the money at the house....so I left the parts and let him owe me.
The head work we discussed in his garage was to clean, leak check and do what was necessary to make them right including hyd. roller double springs and proper retainers. The seats looked good and everything leak checked perfect. So... 2 hours labor for that and installing new seals and setting spring hts. to match the cam @ $75/hour is $150 plus hyd. roller double springs, retainers and seals was $150...thats $300 for heads ready to install and run perfect ! Normally a complete head overhaul with springs is about $600.
The cam, lifters, pushrods, and timing gear set for $500 is all good stuff and worth that all day...the cam itself is like NEW and costs $375 at dealer cost.
The retainer to seal clearance is tight but fine....it will never touch....GUARENTEED !!!
Did he mention the BRAND NEW...still in the box roller rockers for $150
Maybe no more tryin to help somebody out....comes back to bite you !!!

Back peddling??? The job was done last year...I had to look up the work sheet to remember! People that know nothing about me putting their two cents in! Thank you for that !

Rob- you should know better than to cut corners for anyone and leave your name on it, if that is the case.

However, listing what you sold him and what a good deal he may or may have not got on them does not mean much. Is he expected to be a happy customer if he has products he can't use just because he got a good deal? Should he have just took the chance that it would work just fine because you said it might? A reputable engine builder should never make a statement saying "It is out of spec, but it will work just fine" IMO if it is not exactly right in a high performance marine apllication you will find out very quickly. Just because he is on a budget doesn't mean he should get inferior service. It is your job as a engine builder to talk guys up to doing it the right way or don't do it at all.

Some of he complaints may be just knit picking, however he has some real concerns.

We all make mistakes, it is what we do to correct our mistakes that builds a reputation.

If the parts were such a good deal you should have no problem buying them back from him and resellling them

Yep, you told me you would grind the valves that needed it, no argument there.

Yep you brought more stuff than you told me, so I didn’t have all the cash on me, I owed you $300 but you were taking my heads with you which are worth that much at least so its not like you were going to lose money if I didn’t come up with the cash.

Yep, new roller rockers for $150, they are ohio crankshaft roller rockers, I can buy them for $139 right from ohio crankshaft s website ,so don’t try to make it sound like you sold me $300 cranes for $150. I’m sure you get dealer cost from them also, so you probly made money on them, which I have no issue with either.

BUT, did you see the pics of these heads, nothing was cleaned on any of the valves. Leak checked and checked perfect?? How did you check them?

That’s funny because I poured kerosene in the intake and exhaust ports, in less than 30 seconds about half the valves were dripping kerosene out of the chamber and onto my bench. There wasn’t one single valve that didn’t leak kerosene in less than one minute.

I called summit racing and bought a spring compressor and lapping compound, I pulled out the valves and lapped one heads worth of valves, the seats would not clean up all the way around on many chambers which confirmed why they leaked kerosene. I never bothered lapping the other head since I knew that they would need all the seats cut to seal right. This is why they are at another shop right now getting re-worked…

Again, how did you set spring height? Not one single shim in any of these valve springs?

.007” clearance from seal to retainer at full lift is good in your book? Why do crane and comp cams all tell you to have min of .060” clearance? Why would they say a min of .060” if .007” is good to go???

There wasn’t one single intake valve in these heads that had the minimum of .060” clearance that the cam manufacturers recommend. Some of the exhaust valves met min clearance though so I’ll give you that….

2 wrong length pushrods also. all i can say is if i just took these parts just as i got them from you and put it together the first time it went WFO something was gonna blow up.

hell, you can even see in these pics i took where the exhaust valve seat is sealing off and where its not. its sealed from about 1:00 to 7:00 the rest of it is not sealing.

the intake seat goes away about 3:00

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1305120960

I give up here....don't know who you are??? I offered to do a valve job at no cost to make ammends.....but that is not the issue now! Cam has ordered a bigger cam, morell lifters and new springs and wants to run the motor to 5800rpm! This was not the plan in november....Hope he does'nt have reversion issues...If he wanted to go to a bigger cam I would have traded up for him....selling his used parts would be an easy sale except he just told the world its all junk!
I have a great reputation for standing behind mistakes.... don't know what I can do here...can't win with you guys... SORRY!

As I said a few times, if you would have simply returned my 6+ messages I left over the last 2 weeks then you wouldn’t be in this position. You left me no choice but to go elsewhere to get these heads done right since you wouldn’t talk to me on the phone, or respond to emails about this…

I cant take you up on the “free” valve job, the heads are at another shop as I have said a few times already.

If you want to make it right send me a check for $300 for the head work, send me 2 proper length push rods, send me the good used roller lifters. I’ll send you back these 2 pushrods, the valve springs, and the lifters I have now. Its that simple to make it right.

Whether or not I ordered a bigger cam has ZERO to do with this situation, the valves still would leak, the clearance still wasn’t right for the cam they were set up for, the pushrods are still mismatched, and the lifters are still worn. Tell me how me using a different cam would change ANY of these issues?