Water in Engine oil Please help
 

I just rebuilt my 454, with 781 heads which were magnafluxed, bob m cam , stainless marine exhaust, a .027 steel head gasket, long story short i got it all tuned up and runs great all around.. took it out for 5 hours then i pulled valve cover to do valve adjustment and i had whip cream, i trained the oil and it looked like green snot, so i took off intake manifold bc my old man forgot to put rtv sealant around water ports, changed oil and filter, so we did that and let it sit overnight to dry, then i ran it yesterday for 6 hours non stop, ran like a bat out of hell, came home now oil on dipstick still is milky. I do not run a thermastat, bc my old edlebroc manifold didnt have one for years, im now running the performer airgap manifold wo one as well, water temp around 110-125 I need to install oil temp gauge.. I wondering if cold water could be issue? or any other ideas? Before i rebuilt motor ran fine..... The oil cooler could have taken a **** as well?? But wtf worked before rebuild...

Reversion??
blown head gasket?

Just installed 140 degree thermostat today, ran it for ten minutes on trailer and got it up to max 160.. So deffently keeping water alot hotter

Is it the same under both valve covers. If u are seeing it in oil it is not condesation. What kind of headers? Leak down test may help. Good luck sorry to hear about your problem.

Fixx
 

Also, is your dipstick showing a higher then it was after it was changed?

i usually change the oil several times if theirs ever any trace of water in it..you will need to get the engine temps up to at least 160* to burn the moisture out of the oil..

It was about 1/2 quart to a quart over full, but i did do a oil change before going out, but deffently signs of water on dipstick and under both valve covers...

I am going to pressure test oil cooler, and exhaust manifolds, but exhaust was fine before rebuild,

A leaky exhaust manifold gasket do anything?

If I run the boat on the trailer and then remove the risers and look for water in manifold, is this the best way to check for reversion?? Bc when I took out boat in neutral I idled at 800rpm but later in day boat was stalling under load when
Just put in gear!

I had similar problem a few years ago, I removed riser and found "under gasket" a small rust spot that allowed water into motor. I was told before buying boat that risers and manifolds were new. It was BS. And the dealership replaced at thier expense.

Check to see if there is water on the plugs. If you were getting that much water as you described you would have hydro locked the motor or you are extremely lucky.
You said your oil level went up after running. That's a head gasket. Do a comp test if all good look at cooler.

With 110 water temps, your gonna have a hard time getting the moisture out. Need to see 200 degree oil temps.


last spring I lost an intake gasket, and I did not get the mosture cleaned out, till I changed the oil about 5 times, and got the motor hot (170 water, and 212 oil)

If you gained 1/2 quarts you have a leak. Oil will not rise from reversion. Plus a Bob M. custom cam will not revert water.

You said 781 heads, are they new to this rebuild?

What Gen of block do you have, that you bolted the 781 to?

What head gasket did you use?

I agree that if your going up on the stick you have intrusion somewhere. If you started high on the stick....I have seen it take a couple oil changes to ge the water out.

I have a gen 6 block, i used a gen 6 cometic head gasket, the 781 replaced my peanut ports,

I ran it today at a low idle and checked plugs i saw two dots of water but not enought to mean reversion, the plugs were mocha brown..
Maybe the cometic head gasket isnt sealing as well as a normal gasket due to the facts its all metal on metal. Bc again the boat runs like a bat out of hell from 800-5000rpm havent pushed it beyond that.

Would intake manifold gasket matter if its not a marine one?

On a boat years ago, i had a leak between riser and manifold. This leak filled my 2 back cylinders full of water and hydro locked the engine. I pulled the plugs and drained the water. If you only noticed a few drops of water in oil i doubt it could be this same problem. In doubt pull risers and inspect or change gaskets.

Intake gasket may matter if its not marine given that you operate in a salt environment (I'm not saying it does, but it might).

Also, it is somewhat important to know that he was not having this problem when he had the wrong main/rod bearings installed and his oil pressure was around 35/40psi. This problem started after he fixed his oil pressure issue.

It could be a coincidence, but it baffles me that a change in main/rod bearings and an oil pump would make it start leaking anywhere. It could be that the head/intake gasket blew or a riser gasket went, but it seems weird that it never happened before the oil pressure problem was fixed.

First- stop running that engine unless you want to rebuild it again.

Remove the exhaust system, pressure test outside of the boat. For this next part you are going to have to improvise, you need to pressurize the engine with water and hold. This will require capping the water intake tube after sea water pump, and before exhaust. A flush kit, some adapters, and a low pressure gauge....you can make a kit using autozone and home depot. Don't worry about the oil cooler at this time because they usually leak the other way.

Pressurize and turn engine over by hand and look into each cylinder. Keep an eye on the gauge, if it doesn't hold at all the leak will be obvious just keep the water on. If the leak is slow you will have to use your eyes and ears.

May sound like a lot, but the other option is removing the engine.

If you know someone with a good smoke machine this job is even easier, just get the system completely dry first and follow the smoke.

Ok today i removed the manifolds and pressure tested them, the risers which are stainless marine, and oil cooler non of them leaked, So i removed intake manifold gasket which in an automotive gasket, i ordered a marine one, regardless i used rtv sealant on all water jackets, when i saw a good bond there i took off headsk, didnt see any obvious signs of water leakage with cometiv .027 gaskets, only could be a problem in head gasket since i didnt mill the block only did heads, so ill be using a marine head gasket now.... We caulked every head bolt and valve push rod retainer bolts and caulked every intake manifold bolts, well do that again and with all the new gaskets hope the best..
4 bus once i get new head gaskets and intake manifold on ill try to pressure the system up...

I also may try to get some new head bolts bottom of mine are a little corruded but threads seam fine..

Any other idea's?? I will torque head to specs of mercruiser book unless 781's need to be tighter?

The rpm airgap intake use any special intake manifold gasket or will a marine felpro be fine?

The rpm airgap intake is different from my old edlebrok performer manifold in that its has closed center water jackets and the old one had the passage through from one side to another...

Air Gap will take a standard intake gasket. Doubt if that is your problem.

First of all, invest in a quality set of new head bolts. I just learned the hard way that this is not a good area to save money. Head bolts stretch when you torque them, and reusing them might contribute to not getting even clamping on the heads/block. What are you using for sealant on the bolt threads? Standard RTV is a no-no, especially in salt water. Did you lubricate the underside of the head bolts and washers? If not, your torque readings were probably way off. Also, make sure you are using a good torque wrench, preferably one that has been calibrated recently. The cheap Chinese made ones are not recommended for a critical torque value like head bolts. Beg or borrow one that you know is good. Once again, ask me how I found out about this! :eek:

If you were just seeing a little residual moisture in the oil, I would say this is just leftover water, but since you were moving the line on the stick, you have a leak somewhere. I think I have read that the Cometics require you to have a very straight surface with a very fine, smooth finish. Were these MLS gaskets? Since you are running in a harsh salt water environment, I would invest in a good set of MLS gaskets.

Good luck!

You said "caulked the head bolts" for this round. Was this omitted when then heads were done before? That could possibly be your problem as some of those head bolts go into water passages, others into oil passages. Failure to do this might lead to water intrusion into the oil, but I am not a rebuild expert so I would like to hear more opinions on this. And this differs between blocks- a 454 has open passages but I think 502's have blind passages.

I sent heads off for pressure testing today..
Did find a couple valve guide seals broken (they were crushed and springs popped out on exhaust cylinders..)
I ordered new head bolts... $44 Napa Yes dogturd21 we used waterprooof caulk on every head bolt and yes they do go through to water jackets... When we installed cometic gasket we didnt put bonding agent on block or heads which we should have, but we didnt seem to see a head leak, regardless im using a marine gasket next round.

did you take a close look at the heads for water spotting when you got them off? If not have the machine shop tell you when they pressure test.

Was there water on the tops of any of the pistons? My suggestion to you was the engine in the boat assembled, I did not realize you were going to take it out......but good call, its the right way.

You water leak should be easier to trace with the engine apart.

Cometic head gaskets are installed dry.

We got pressure test back one exhaust guide was leaking but head shop doesnt think that is the problem he thinks it would burn off, should have heads back tomarrow and then we did pressure test assembled

Exhaust guide would leak oil, you are looking for water right?


did he notice any water spots on any particular valves? Should be easy to notice with salt water use.


How does the engine run? the reason I ask these questions is to see if the water is leaking into the combustion chamber or directly into the lifter galley and down to the pan.

The exhaust guides go through the water jacket on a big block, and they do leak, especially if they've been replaced at one time or another. Doubtful that's his issue though, unless it were leaking to the top side, under the valve cover. I'd be looking close at head and intake gaskets.

We go heads pressure checked and there perfect , installed them with new marine gasket. sealed the **** out of new head bolts, and new marine intake gasket, pressure checked with 3o-40 psi with oil pan off.. no leaks. im going to get it running on engine stand at a higher rpm and let it run for a good bit to make sure no problems before putting back in boat for final time.. lmao...

So with a upgraded cam what is the recommed idle rpm and lowest in gear rpm to run and not allow reversion..

I thought I read earlier in this thread you had a Mandra cam?
If you worked with him and told him everything he asked I dought you you have reversion. I don't think I have ever heard of anyone have that problem with one of his cams.

There is no way you are getting 1/2 to a quart of water thru piston rings. Reversion or valve guides. With that much water it has to be leaking somewhere.

Hopefully you got it all sealed up and it runs great this time.

please keep posting.I am going through exact same scenario.Everything you are doing,I have done! I am going to run mine on stand with automotive headers and see what happens. I have Eddie Marine Thunder exhaust. 60 hours on build with that same green snot that you described. mounted torque plate and pressurized to 100p.s.i. and no leaks! I have Merlin heads. Machine shop said no problems with heads.

Sidney i feel you it must be a 1989 boat think. lol
We ran it today on stand it sounds great and oil is clean, were putting in boat tomarrow.. The problem should be solved we still don't know where we were getting leak.
Could have been automotive intake manifold gasket instead of stock, old head bolts, or cometic head gasket on a not resurfaced block, WE still have to run in water all day before you truly know its a done deal...

Pant era, I was wondering if you have run the boat yet? I was curious how it ran and if there was any water intrusion in your oil? I have not got mine back in yet. Please let me know?

It seemed good on dip stick after 2 hour ride, then i took off valve cover and saw milky oil not as bad as first time but that was a 6 hour ride, then i pumped it all out and it was all milky.... So i welded some ****ing 3"dia stainless steel pipes that are 10" long and installed them then i ran that ***** on trailer and took a flash light with motor off and saw beads of water up the 10" new exhaust pipe and even damp up to 90 degree riser.. I am 95% sure it reversion, so i changed oil and filter and going to run this weekend, ill let you know , but i think we found her, after i ripped my motor in half and replaced a new cometic head gasket/ did a head pressure test/ pressure on block/ and almost beat my head into the concrete with a $3500 upgrade with milky oil ...

What are the specs on that cam? Lift, duration, duration at .050, and LSA?

I understand reversion from the cam but I always thought the problem was where the water entered the exhaust at and not the length of the tail. Can water from reversion even get into the oil? How?

WOW again, you said you have a Mandra cam.
Did you call him? Post the cam specs.
He is the expert and will spend an hour on the phone with you and free advise. He will even talk to you even if you do not have one of his cams.

I will post specs of cam tomarrow, i added ten inches of the inner pipe that the exhaust goes through, so the water has to flow further. I only have about 8 inches left to where the flaps are. But i ran boat on trailer for 10 minutes at idle and 3000 rpm setting timing issue with old distributer. Then i shut off water and ran motor 20 more seconds and shut down. When i take the flash light in the tail pipe you see beads of water up the new 10" pipe then on one side it was wet all the way to the further point where the 90 degree riser is falling back into the manifolds.. Again i did this pipe and changed oil today I will run boat thiis weekend and let you know if this is truly the problem.
I called bob he said its not reversion, so i changed head gasket, and every other think and pressure tested everything including block with oil pan off at 40psi so .....

On these type of water in engine issues with headers and exhaust tailpipe systems how about everyone posting pictures of their manifold/header and tailpipe systems so we can see the system and possibly help find the problems for all OSO members with issues.
In our years of engine builds and performance boat engine work we have seen a lot of PLUMBING! that is sometimes the problem, not the build on the engine or the camshaft. There are so many variations and modifications of exhaust systems that verbal descriptions do not show angles, bends, drops, routing, all the missing descriptions that helping an OSO member's - find the problems becomes like trying to pick a winning lottery number!
Just a request and what I think is a great idea.

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

:worthless_without_p

I asked for a new copy of specs but havent received yet, my original is folded down middle so some #'s areent legiable
Lift= .595 blurry
valve overlap 2.4 clear
lobe seperation 114.2 clear
duration 226.2 blurry

if you can read the grind number at the very top of the spec sheet i can decode it for you. are you running 1.7 ratio rockers?

BTW, Bob is out of town on vacation currently.

grind # xa-228-360-232-350-14
thanks

I only new how to post pics on my website.
I show the ss marine exhaust there and a pic of the new 10" pipe we welded on
go to www.concretekpp.com then click stamped concrete tab
and pics are on the right

intake duration: 228
intake lobe lift: 360
in valve lift:.612

ex duration:232
ex lobe lift:350
ex valve lift:.595

lobe separation: 114