Gasoline Quality
 

Thought I'd share something I ran across recently. A customer brought in a Fountain with twin HP500's in August. One of the engines was blown, so we rebuilt it and just got it reinstalled. All is well. However we tried to start the engine that we didn't work on and it would not start. Long story short the fuel stting in the carb was bad(fresh in August). Drained the float bowls and seperator and refilled with fresh fuel. The fuel had turned yellowish but had no water in it. The fuel in the tank runs but I certainly expect it's lost a lot of octane. I've always heard that ethanol fuel has about a 6 week shelf life, but this is the first time I've seen it so drastically demonstrated.

Bob Lloyd
Full Throttle Marine

Hey Bob you put headers on my friend Barry's 353 Formula. I have kept E10 in my Fountain treated with full dose green Sta-Bil from Nov-April for 4 years with no problem in spring. I am going to try the empty tank method this winter.

I allways suck all the fuel out of the tank after I run a crap load of stabil through it the last time I run the boat. I allways like to have fresh fuel in the sping. I just hope that the stabil does its job in the carbs over the winter. Never have had a problem.

After I took out the tops of the rod berrings I am much more carfull with fuel. E10 is not a boaters friend....

We've seen several damaged engines this year that the only plausible explanation was bad fuel.


Bob Lloyd
Full Throttle Marine

Ya, thats what I have been telling everyone, keep it fresh not full. Just because you have a 200 gallon fuel tank does not mean you should keep it full. I have a 62 gallon tank and I normally run it half full, unless taking a big trip. Only pump what you will burn in a couple of weeks.

According to the fuel rep's 3 weeks is all you get now. After that point it begins to deteriorate. Such a bargain at only $5 a gallon up here.. :angry-smiley-038:

:lolhit::lolhit:That's awesome. :lolhit:I've long suspected that the only real reason for the Enthanol is for Big Oil to keep a stranglehold on the supply line, and prevent smaller operations from buying quantity and hedging, etc.

Corn ethanol is all about politicians, and the EPA. It makes no sence at all, it takes more energy to make and creates less energy (lower MPG). Vote for Ron Paul and get the crap over with.......

:poopoo:










ROCK ON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:coolcowboy:
ITS A SKATER NATION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:drink:
HAPPY CHRISTMAS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :bigbird:

Fuel is a nasty thing these days! I use a great new product out from AMSOIL called Quickshot. It won product of the year at SEMA in 2010.

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/aqs.aspx

The article, below, appeared in BoatUS Magazine...

Three Ethanol Myths Clarified
By Bob Adriance

It's time we get to the bottom of how E10 is affecting our engines

In the few years since ethanol began to be widely used in the United States, a lot has been written about its properties, the problems it's created, and how to best cope with its possible effects. Some of the advice has been based on science, some on hearsay. While E10 is not an ideal fuel – and E15 could cause serious problems for marine engines – at least a few myths about ethanol have arisen with the potential to do more harm than good:



Myth #1: Ethanol-enhanced gasoline (E10) loses octane much faster than regular gasoline.
Many mechanics believe that octane loss during winter storage could be great enough to damage an engine when it's run in the spring. These same mechanics will often recommend leaving the tank almost empty so that fresh gasoline can be added in the spring to raise depleted octane levels. While all gasoline loses octane as it ages, ethanol-enhanced gasoline loses octane at about the same rate as regular gasoline, according to Jim Simnick, a technical advisor at BP Global Fuels Technology, and Lew Gibbs, a senior engineering consultant and Chevron Fellow. The two men have over 75 years of combined experience working with gasoline and both agree that the loss of octane over the winter would not be sufficient to damage an engine. Note, however, to keep any gasoline, including E10, as fresh as possible; they said it's good practice to always add fuel stabilizer — an antioxidant — whenever the boat will be idle for long periods.

The recommendation to leave a tank mostly empty is bad advice; it could significantly increase the amount of water that gets into the tank. When enough water enters through the vent, the ethanol will separate ("phase separate") from the gasoline. Leaving a tank mostly empty does three things to increase the chances of phase separation:

It increases the volume of open space in the tank (its "lung capacity") so it can "breathe in" damaging moist air. An almost-empty tank leaves more space on tank walls for condensation to form. Leaving less gasoline in the tank means there will be less ethanol to absorb the condensation.

It's interesting to note that in areas of the Midwest that have been dealing with E10 for over a decade, topping off tanks is common practice. (As an alternative, completely emptying the tank would eliminate any chance of phase separation.)

If phase separation occurs, the highly corrosive ethanol/water mixture will settle to the bottom of the tank and remain there even after fresh fuel is added in the spring. The only way to remedy the problem would then be to drain the tank and add fresh gasoline. The best way to avoid phase separation over the winter (aside from emptying the tank) is to leave the tank 95-percent full (which allows for expansion) so that there's less moist air in the tank, less space for condensation to collect, and more gasoline to absorb whatever moisture does accumulate.


Myth #2: E10 attracts water, so it's important to install a water separator to prevent the water reaching the engine.
Mercury Marine, which recently hosted a Webinar on ethanol myths, noted that ethanol does not "grab water molecules out of the air." It is hydrophilic, which means ethanol holds water. With regular gasoline (E0) as well at E10, the primary cause of water collecting in tanks is condensation on tank walls. But unlike E0, which can absorb almost no moisture, E10 can hold up to half of one percent of water by volume, and the water molecules will dissolve in the fuel. The "solubilized" water will bypass the water separator and burn harmlessly through the engine. Only if phase separation were to occur would a water separator do its job, but by then the fuel itself would be the problem. The phase-separated water/ethanol mixture would settle on the bottom of the tank near the fuel pick-up and would quickly stall out or even damage your engine. And because ethanol is used to boost octane, the remaining (low-octane) gasoline at the top of the tank would also have the potential to damage your engine.

Note, however, that a fuel filter (10-micron) is essential to keep gunk from reaching your engine. Ethanol is a solvent that dissolves resins, rust, and dirt that have accumulated on older tank walls. Especially when you first make the transition to E10, it's important to carry spare filters and a galvanized bucket to store used filters prior to disposal. Even in new engines and tanks, E10 will sometimes form a mysterious gooey substance that will also clog filters. Richard Kolb, the manager of Emissions and Regulations for Volvo Penta, believes the goo is caused by water mixing with one or more of the 108 approved compounds that can be used in gasoline. These compounds vary among suppliers, so one solution is to change to a different brand of gasoline. Another is to use carburetor cleaner, which he says has sometimes remedied the problem.


Myth #3: Certain additives can prevent phase separation?
Both Gibbs and Simnick said that the additives that eliminate water may work incrementally to protect against phase separation, but Joe Simnick stressed that no additives will stand up to a good slug of water. Lew Gibbs added that the best way to prevent phase separation in E10 is to "keep it dry, keep it dry, keep it dry." That means keeping the tank filled to prevent condensation. Mercury Marine has also noted that, contrary to statements made by some companies that produce fuel additives, there are no additives that can make stale or phase-separated gasoline usable.

E10 is certainly not as trouble-free as E0, especially the first few tankfulls. But for newer engines, those built after about 1991, there's no reason the initial problems can't be overcome. No less an authority than Mercury Marine says, "After the transition period from E0, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the
system 'dry.'"

Bob Adriance is Editor of Seaworthy, the BoatUS Marine Insurance damage-avoidance publication, and author of Seaworthy, Essential Lessons of Things Gone Wrong (published by International Marine/McGraw Hill, available at www.Amazon.com and major bookstores).

I have rebuilt a whole lot of outboard carbs & since they dont have water seperarors they ae more suseptable to water in the fuel. I ran all boat motors with a known good source of fuel so when they left they ran right. I watched a cutomer pick up his boat ((40hp evinrude) told the guy DO NOT RUN ETHANOL IN THIS MOTOR!!! He goes over next door & fills his tank with ethanol & took the boat out. Came back an hour later boat wouldnt run had to paddle to shore. I told him as marked on repair order not to run ethanol, They took it out shut it off & fished when done no start. cust pissed I told them I watched them fill tank with ethanol fuel ,told them I will drain float bowls, if any water present they can suck rope sure enough water in the bowls. runs ok when all mixed together but given time to seperate thats all it took .boating is not cheap & when you try to get by cheaply you usually get bit in th the azz

So, do you have E0 readily available in Nebraska? I figured it would mostly be E10.

We have 87oct reg which is fine for my boat(496 standards) 91oct 10%ethanol &E85 so far also 93oct but Im not sure what it is. I talked with the genntleman at full throttle & he hasdone extesive testing on the 496 & basically told me im wasting moey on the high test cause i might only see 3-4 hp gain BTW when I stabilize my fuel I usually double or triple the amount on the bottle just to make sure & never had to replace anything yet. Any other questions pm me your number Ill give you a call.ASi am a 1 figer typer &it takes forever. Randy

Installed built motors in my 382 and had 2 injectors fail.....at WOT. Engines had 2 hours on them. Turns out they were defective and not ethanol related.

Took 6 weeks to get the motor out/rebuilt/re-running but neither engine was running correctly. Precision Marine had done the mapping of the EFI and arrangements were made to get him out on the boat. He determined bad fuel was causing timing to be retarded and it was verified with a portable OB tank setup to run..........fuel in the tank had been sitting just those 6 weeks.

Although I do believe stabilizer will allow fuel to sit all winter I no pump the tank empty and burn it in the vehicles.

WOW.....I wish non-E was available here. I've called 2 distributors and the closest stations they deliver non-E to are roughly 100 miles away.

Have you checked fuel-testers?

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=VA

I have in the past and just looked again. A new one is on the list and mapquest shows it's 45 miles away but in a direction I never go. Of the 2 rivers I frequent and the region I live nothing is any closer (Richmond VA)

Is todays blended gasoline fuel or Rotgut?
 

Just to set the record straight here on octane levels on Merc 496"s. Stock 496 Mags and 496HO's run the best on 87-89 octane fuels, ethanol or not. These engines as programmed stock from Mercury do not need the extra octane and the slower burning 91-93 octanes tend to just soot the transoms more and they don't produce anymore power for more performance. If the stock engine is in high temperatures or closer to detonation events with slight detonation (knocking)then higher octanes will help keep the engine out of detonation,retarded timing and naturally develop more power than a hot engine in hot air that is trying to run on the lower octane fuel and is slightly detonating and setting off signals from the knock sensors to the ECM.

As for the ethanol issues that Boating article was written to sound like there are no real issues with ethanol blended fuel? If that is the case then why did Mercury and Volvo both just finish extensive testing on their engines on ethanol blended fuels and report back to the EPA that these engines all suffered significant damage after long loaded operation and that the ethanol based fuel was shown to be the root cause??

Sounds like the major juries are still out on ethanol both E10 and especially E15 as to what damage occurs to marine engines with thiese fuels in normal offseason storage and inseason usage. Most boaters know what phase seperation in ethanol blended fuel is and this can be a major problem no matter what addtives are added and how much fuel water seperation is provided.
The bigger question now just starting to be answered with more usage, testing and breakdowns is what are the damaging effects of some of the new in fuel compounds that are being formed in ethanol and gasoline blended fuels and what happens when these compounds start having serious negative effects on engine systems and interior parts!
Trust those who say this ethanol problem and issue is far from over and the truth on longer term effects may be worse than just the moisture content of these fuels and storage issues!

Remember these are a lot of the same agencies and people who said MTBE was Ok to add to our gasoline and then after correct testing and evaluation later found out it was a dangerous carcinogen and poison and we taxpayers have been paying for this changeover and clean up for years.
I guess what I am saying here is that "These good new fuel types are never a problem UNTIL THEY BECOME A PROBLEM!"
So say our wonderful government agencies, corn growers, fuel makers, lobbiests and legislators until the problem is overwhelming and identified. Then we get to pay for their ineptness and we suffer the losses and costs!
I am not saying ethanol blended fuel is useless or damaging in all uses, I am just not sure its the best fuel for marine usage period!
Sorry I just don't trust these types based on their past performances to deliver the Whole Truth and Nothing But the Truth!

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

That article is CRAP, fuel companies trying to cover there ass and avoid law suits. Independant studies show different results. After my engine blew up due to bad fuel I know better now.

Might as well throw this in to the mix to (also from BoatUS Magazine)...

Mercury Debunks More Ethanol Myths

Mercury Marine, the world's largest manufacturer of marine engines, recently held a webinar to debunk some of its own myths about ethanol. I attended with interest. The first myth was that there are fuel additives that can prevent all issues associated with ethanol-blended gasoline. For example, no fuel additive can prevent ethanol from acting like a solvent. The second myth was that fuel additives can make stale or phase-separated fuel useable. "Fuel cannot be rejuvenated," Mercury determined, and they noted that it's a myth that ethanol-blended fuels are bad and should be avoided. Here are some quotes from the Mercury Marine webinar.

"There is no active transfer mechanism for ethanol molecules to reach out and 'grab' water molecules out of the air. Under normal storage conditions, even in a vented fuel tank, it just does not happen at a level or rate that is relevant."

"Major multi-billion dollar companies with enormous resources have improved gasoline additives but there have been no recent breakthroughs involving 'magical technology.' Claims made by companies about 'space-age,' 'revolutionary,' or special proprietary technology should be looked at with a high degree of suspicion."

"E10 Ethanol absolutely IS an acceptable fuel for everyday use."

"E15 Ethanol absolutely IS NOT an acceptable fuel."

"After the transition period from E0, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the system 'dry.'"

"Don't immediately assume E10 is the problem."

Bob Adriance

I agree with you 100% Ray! But unfortunately it looks like E0 fuel is becoming a thing of the past and we are going to have to learn to deal with whatever comes along whether it be E10 or something even more bizzare.
I think we can all learn from each other what preventative measures actually work and what doesn't. As long as everyone keeps an OPEN MIND and doesn't go blaming E10 fuel everytime their motor farts or for everything that goes wrong with their fuel system. Boats have been notorious for fuel system issues long before we ever heard of E10, so the "old gas" and "water" issues are nothing new but it does seem as if EVERYTHING is now being blamed on E10 when, in fact, there's probably a good portion of the problems that plagued us before E10, which are not E10 related.
Like you say, E10 is not perfect and does have it's share of issues that need to be worked out. So we'll just have to learn to deal with it and make it work because it's not going to go away.

T500HPS, the fuel stations where I fuel my boat do not have stickers on the 87 oct pumps like the 89 oct do but to be honest I wouldnt know what is actually coming out of the nozzle without having it tested. Randy

+1:bsflag:

whats the difference in marine engiens and cars??

There is no difference here between 87, 89, and 93.......all E10.

If Merc & Volvos info is correct then we all should be sending our repair bills to the oil companies,That should make a difference in their record quarterly profits huh?

soldier4402, car engines are built on an assembly line & do not suffer the continued abuse of high rpm operation for long lengths of time, Take a car engine (350-454) whatever run it at 4-5000rpm & see how long it lasts, Do the same with an identical boat engine I rest my case.Randy

Sorry I didnt add this with my last post, Case in point my corvette z06 will run as far as I have had it 165mph with more to go, the same engine marinized sells in ski boats & wont even come close to that speed even though they are hand built engines, water has far more density than iar & asphalt.

In a nutshell...ethanol is both a solvent and is corrosive. It also requires more of it , than gas, to attain the same fuel/air ratio otherwise a slightly lean condition will occur. Late model cars (after about 2006) are designed with all of this in mind (lined tanks, barrier hose, etc.) while most, if not all, boats fuel systems are not designed for this harsh fuel. While late model cars and most injected boats (where the engine controls are computer managed) can compensate for the lean condition created by E10, carbureted engines will ideally need to be re-jetted to compensate for the slightly lean condition. Even earlier fuel injected computer controlled cars can not optimally adjust for this condition and their fuel systems were not designed for E10. So, while we worry about our boats, we should also be thinking about our older cars & trucks.

Again, I'm not saying that E10 is without it's problems but we have to be smart and pay a little more attention to our fuel systems because it's here to stay. But not every fuel system issue can be blamed on E10.

Count your blessings...South America has E20 & E25 fuel :eek:

Brazil uses a lot of E85.

In the same Dec 2011 Boat US magazine referenced above is an article about isobutanol. Like ethanol, isobutanol can be produced by bacterial fermentation of starchy substrate. Except the bacteria are re-engineered to produce isobutanol instead. As the article explains, isobutanol also raises octane and oxygenates the fuel like ethanol does but is not hydrophilic like ethanol and should avoid essentially all the water related problems we have with ethanol while providing the same benefits. Yes fermentation fuels are less energy dense than gasoline but with simple modifications we can continue to use our beloved internal combustion engines. I don't know about the rest of you but we are seeing more and more Electric Car recharging stations being installed around Houston. How sexy will it be to someday blast across the waves sounding like a sewing machine or worse yet in near total silence??! :eek:

Should I start a discussion on how to rewind your armature for more power, or would it be a little premature :D

I can attest to that!!!!

One thing that comes to mind in all the testing and articles that have been done. It's all done in a controlled environment. How does everything stack up in the real world when boats are neglected and sit for many months in the rain, heat & cold. I quite often get boats in that have been unused for several years. I know for a fact we've pumped more fuel tanks and cleaned fuel systems in the last year than the previous 10 years combined! Our area just went totally to E10 Jan. 2010. Coincedence? Maybe.

Bob Lloyd
Full Throttle Marine

We've found in our dyno testing the engines using E10 must be tuned roughly .5 A/F richer to produce best power. Also, most fuel injected marine engines run open loop so they can't adjust the A/F ratio without a reprogram. Fortunately most factory tunes are on the rich side so they are still safe. Some aftermarket tunes that are on the ragged edge of too lean could have problems with E10. Especially supercharged engines.

Could be that, given the state of the economy the past three years, less attention (and money) has been paid to the toys and more to just putting food on the table. Still, maybe a portion of that is an E10 issue.

S O S !!!
 

As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, ethanol blended E10 which is just about everywhere and in many cases the only fuels avialble at normal fueling stations is enough of a problem. Now, we are apparently through current legislation and mandate going to see E15 very soon and this is the one that really scares and maddens me! Its definitly been shown by Mercury and other big players in the marine engine manufacturing industry to cause serious marine engine mechanical damage and this is the one they (lovely experts and agencies) want us using in marine engines! Hold on to your wallets and get ready for that BIG SUCKING SOUND! -thats the money leaving your pockets for repairs and problems and going in some smiley face peoples pockets for the sake of a so called pollution problem that cannot even be supported with real statistical data! Remember recreational boating has been lumped into all forms of marine engine usage when these requirements for EPA compliance were and are formulated!
As I keep saying, we are being feed S**t On Shingle and we keep eating it like we have to! Sorry for my Rant!

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

I like ranting too but it doesn't solve problems. The government is looking for environmentally friendly ways to extend and enrich fuel and bacterial production may be a good answer. I have read about it and you can use raw garbage to produce ethanol or isobutanol. I suggest we all read the article in Dec 2011 Boat US mag and make your own judgement. I think a few setting changes or a larger fuel/water separator are small prices to pay to continue to use internal combustion engines.

have to agree on that...we had the same foofarah when unleaded showed its ugly nose...given enough time,the industry can and will adjust...jmo