JTeam, speaking of overheating.....another thing i was told is that the merc spec cmi headers do not have enough space between the inner and outer tubes esp close to the head. this doesn't allow for the proper amount of water to flow through and keep the header cool. the header gets really hot in this area and then when it cools down the inner tube can crack and dump water into the cylinder.

as far as pressure testing goes, is this something i can do on my own or do they need to be sent in? i've heard of others sending the headers in to cmi every year for testing. wtf? i don't want the hassle! i just want it to work. and if that means spend 5k to protect 50k then that's what i'll do

i wish we had concrete proof one way or the other but this will never happen because this is your typical finger match. what's a finger match? well we have two parties involved here and both are pointing fingers at one another and neither will claim responsibility which results in a tie. the prize for a tie? more money money kept in their pockets! IMO the good ole days of admitting when you are wrong died with the good ole boys

You can pressure test them like this:
http://i763.photobucket.com/albums/x...s241Medium.jpg
Plug all holes. Look for bubbles.

Third child, thanks that doesn't look so bad. If I decide to keep them or sell them I will be asking for more details on this.

Speaking of selling, what is a fair price for a set of 2005 fresh water 100 hr headers? Pressure tested of course.

Should you be concerned??? I would answer yes. You might have a year or two before they start leaking, (maybe) but you should take the advice of JTeam and Thirdchildhood and have them pressure checked, so the NIGHTMARE that happened to Mykalvballer won't happen to you!

I got a sick feeling in my gut reading his post (and others with similar catastrophic CMI/Merc header failures) and we ALL feel for him and all the others with these defective POS headers on their boats!

If your headers check-out and are still good, then just consider yourself lucky (for now) (!) and open up a savings account at your local bank and start saving your money, because you WILL have to replace them eventually. IMO

It's MUCH cheaper and a lot less down-time to replace just the headers, then to replace the motor(s) and STILL have to buy new headers!

I have an 03 FasTech w/ 525efi's that has only been used in fresh water and only had 135 hours last Spring when I had the headers pressure checked. As it turned out, it was a GOOD thing I did... ALL FOUR were starting to leak at the collector!

I know that I could have had them repaired, but I looked at that as a band-aid type of repair, because I didn't want to keep chasing my tail fixing leaks and worrying about destroying my 525's with these "Ticking Time Bomb Headers" !!!

I had read about the horror stories of guys like Mykalvballer on OSO with these CMI/Merc headers and I'm just grateful for forums like this where so many great guys share information with their OSO brothers... I wouldn't have had ANY idea of what was coming, and I'm sure I would have smoked at least one if not both of my motors, if not for threads like this one.

It's not a repair that I would EVER had expected to have to make on a low hour fresh-water boat. Not that I think CMI & Mercury Racing deserve a pass on the salt-water application failures either...

Some people might consider changing the headers routine maintenance, but I'm not one of them, and I certainly didn't budget for this repair when I bought the boat in '09, because that was prior to the proliferation of CMI/Merc header failures on these and other Mercury Racing engines.

As far as your question about Hardin vs Gen-X, I think you should do your own research and do what YOU think would be best for you and your particular application. Include in that research calling Hardin Marine and CMI and talking to the techs there to see what the benefits are that their newly designed headers supposedly have to offer... :daz:

I really don't want to recommend one over the other, because of the long-term ramifications of recommending the wrong one, and I'm certainly no expert, so I won't pretend to be! I did what I thought was best for me after weighing everything out. So far so good, but only time will tell... :whistle:

It sounds like you probably have some time available to make your decision (I had to make mine in a couple of days) so maybe by the time you need to do anything there will be even more information available and more products to choose from... Like this!

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/...w/DSC00025.jpg


:lolhit: I'm not advocating that you put a turbocharging system on your 525 engine, but it's an example of something that IS an option that will be available for you, that wasn't for me when I was dealing with this issue last year!

No matter what you decide, good luck with your new boat! :drink:

If you dont mind me askin,what style/brand header did you end up using,how do you like them,what was the cost per set,thanks..

No "proof" which is why I said that is what I was told. I just remember doing a search and reading for hours(literally) because I run CMIs and several people stated that. One guy even said he inspected the materials and welds on both and the Merc units were much less quality. But agai, just what I read on here and other sites. I pulled my headers this winter and no signs of water ingestion at all. But, I would like to figure out a way to pressure test mine since they are off.

PerfectStorm, thanks man i really appreciate your post! this whole thing is starting to look like a "no brainer" for sure but that's exactly why i started this thread and why i am researching the issue to my fullest ability. unlike some guys who are more fortunate than i am and can afford to consider header replacement part of their annual maintenance, i just simply cant afford it.

i have already talked with cmi and hardin but you know how that goes. they obviously want to sell their products and are proud of their work. i'm not saying they will intentionally lie to make a buck because i do believe they are both great companies. but i like to here it from my fellow boaters who have absolutely nothing to gain by steering me the wrong direction.

as for now i am leaning towards the hardin hurricanes for two reasons:
1- cmi has left a bad taste in my mouth.....sorry
2- hardin are hand built vs. the mass produced assembly line style of the cmi's

a cmi rep from the forums here has sent me a pm asking for my email address. he says he wants to send me info on header maintenance that can prolong the life of the cmi headers. i believe it should be public info so i will share it with you all.

PS,
What did you end up doing about your leaking headers?
Thanks,
Dean

CMI has a video on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWGcvwHZSE8 that discusses water flow. There is also a Merc Service Bulletin that eleiminates the bypass hoses. There is one thing I'm curious about for those who have had failures. While my CMI's have been OK, I've certainly experienced my share of failed manifolds. In all cases, I would notice a miss in the engine before it actually did any real damage. Have the failures been so catastrophic that there wasn't much warning?

Single 525 / salt water / flush after every use / Headers leaked at about 220 hours. Caught it before any significant damage. I had the headers welded (at the collectors) and good to go for now. Prior to knowing for sure what was wrong... The motor was down slightly on power. I'm pretty in tune to how its running, so when it's off just a bit, I can tell. The motor would surge at wot by about 300-400 rpm and at initial start up, it didn't have that snap that I was used to hearing. Just my 02. I can't believe that neither merc or cmi will stand behind this issue. They should make a joint effort to rectify the problem and make good on them by replacing them with better quality. Even if the consumer would be reponsible for the labor. Someone should tell mercury that the competitions is closing the gap. And I haven't heard any complaints about the competition yet!

Every time I see CMI, or Merc headers I cringe. and get sick to my stomach.
THERE IS PROOF that they both leak. Eventually. I also have PROOF (via E-mail) why the Gen X came out. (they leak too BTW)
There are some ways to help, and extend life or reduce the chance of leakage but no sure cure. (Search of some of my older CMI posts, not typing it all over again)
The best thing you can do is use them as boat anchors. Until you do TEST them as much as you can and as often as you can, to avoid catastrophic engine issues. I’m afraid I have some motor issues again, but just afraid to check. I’m sure if I check and do a leak down I will be reaching for my 9 mill. and driving up to Wisconsin.
I will post on my other “header thread” when I get a few more beers down.

Maybe it's time to hear from the boys that use the Hardin hurricanes. If you're out there please let us know how you feel

Hurricanes,are made by Lightning Headers http://lightningheaders.com/

and? i couldn't find them on the site

You were right , Hardin Marine makes em . Been checking them out myself . Diamond Performance Parts ,Keith Eickert and CP Performance sell them also .

i would like to hear from the guys who are running the hurricane's. they are fairly new yet, i believe they have only been in production for less than two years.

let me clear this up,,,hardin only sells them,,,lightning builds them,,,maybe under a license ageement,,,thats why you wont see them on the lightning site,,,at least that is where mine came from,,,one season with the hurricans headers,so far iam happy

That's news to me . Can't figure why they don't sell their own product then . Makes no sense to me , go figure . Maybe CMI builds Lightnings' headers for them ..........lol

thanks

Does anyone know what years were the worst for the Merc Headers? Or are they all the years BAD?!

Anyone know the answer to this Q?
Thanks,
Dean

I've been told a few times that most of the issues were in '05 and '06. And sometime around '08 the headers were redesigned to solve the issue but some guys still had problems.

I'm not risking it! I ordered the Hurricane Lite's. Which by the way are not and never have been made by lightning nor in the same factory. I asked Hardin.

my headers came in boxes,all full of that spray foam stuff,both boxes had lighting addreses out of cailfornia on them,,,go figure???

Yeah wtf? Someone is not tellin us the truth here! Wonder what's really up?

Figures, we have an 06 hustler 388 w/ 600SCi's with 92 hours on it. Plus, it has silent choice exhaust also!:eekdrop:

:mad: My 2005 had port headers leaking on the forward stagger freshwater 100% at 100 hrs :mad:

To be honest I do not know if the same issues pertain to the 600sci's. Best to research a bit further.

I won't say it brother.....:silenced:.....:ernaehrung004:

Thanks for the ray of hope, but, I believe, the SAME headers are used on the 525, 600SCi's, and the 700SCi's........

No say it. What is the big secret? Lightning is making hurricanes to hardin specs??

I just called lightning and asked to speak to someone about hurricane headers. The guy says "ahhh ummm ok what kind of questions do you have?" I said "well you do make hurricane headers right?" he says "ahhh ummm well you are going to have to call Hardin or cp" I said "so you don't make them" and CLICK he hangs up:lolhit: So what's the big secret?

I smell shat in the proverbial woodpile !!!:eekdrop:

If a manufacturer like Lightning is making headers for a company like Hardin/CP to their design and specs., I would always bet Lightning has signed a non-disclosure/non-compete and as such he cannot by the law of the agreement disclose most any and all information about the product or offer it for sale. It is not a secret just something that is controlled by contractual agreements This does not make the product a problem or an issue really for users as they I would think are sold and hopefully warrantied by Hardin/CP who basically owns the design and the finished product. In this case Lightning would be a subcontractor.


As for what years Mercury Racing had problems with their design CMI headers you hear all sorts of guesses. I do notice that CMI offers the replacement GEN-X headers and advertises they are for HP525's, HP600sci's and HP700sci's and these engines all are the same Merc Sporttube header (same part numer in the Merc parts listings) and we have heard from owners here on OSO that all three of these engine families have had header leakage issues.

JMO

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

Thanks Raylar! I'm not concerned about the quality either way. I just want to understand the situation. I think 5k should at least buy me that

I was changing the oil on my 600SCi's last night, (They have 100 hrs on them) and looked at the headers everywhere I could, didn't see any apparant issuses, ( I know, the leaking problem is on the inner tube....) and they looked to be in great shape...... If I could only go by the looks...... :(

Just my two cent opinion.

Since your engines are 2006 600sci's and have I guess been used about 4 years or so even with only 100 hours I would remove the headers and pressure check each one for leaks now.
This will be a bit of work and expense, but the cost ot rebuild or major repair one of those 600sci's will be much greater and at least that way you will have some peace of mind for a while.
If you setup is a staggered engine setup the likely hood of cracking has been shown on other stsaggered installations to be what appears to be greater from the wiehgt of the extended tips on the forward engine.
Again, Dean its your call , but my thought is back to that old cliche " When in doubt, check it Out!"

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

RAT,just go with the hurricanes,enjoy your boat,hardin,cp,are good people to work with,,,dont over think it,,lol

you can pressure test them fairly easily while they are still on the boat...

It's kept me out of trouble several times.... Just my .02 cents.


joe

I was thinking the same thing. Why take them off? I don't.

I should remember that they can be pressure tested also while still on the engine-good catch!

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

It would be EXTREMELY appreciative if some could give some detail on how to do the pressure test while on. I've seen some picks of the header off the engine in a bucket full of water but that really didn't do it for me.

thanx