+10

yeah whats up with that?
 

:stupid::stupid:

I say take yourself and your "secret source" and find a new hobby. The OP was asked several times who built the motors and he said nothing.
You think all builders are perfect and don`t make mistakes .. ok buddy good luck with that.
One more thing Tick Tack, CAPITAL letters go at the beginning of sentences and those are some awesome run-ons if that`s what you were going for.

Is it summer yet.....:whistle:.....:ernaehrung004:....:bong:... .:ernaehrung004:....

recess is over,get your coloring book out and play with your crayons PUNK:poopoo::Whatever::asskiss::stooges::bong::bon g::7160::7160:

good point....those coincidences are not very likely. there was def a culprit either in the rigging or the build.

either way...the builder is trying to help, and the buyer will have none of it, and by doing so he is shooting himself i nthe foot IMO.

if you wont let the builder make it right then just take your lumps, as we all have at some point, and move on.

Ive said it a few times in this thread. For the most part, i dont see anything wrong with the actual assembly, but from what damage I can see, water looks like the culprit to me.

Pitted rollers on the lifters.

Cams showing signs of heat/maybe some pitting, hard to tell from the pics.

Bearing wear.

Water in the oil will do this. 20 Hours runtime don't mean squat to me. If you have water in the oil, and it dont take much, will wreak havoc on parts, especially if its saltwater. Just some moisture when the engines sit for a week or so, can start rust forming on the cam lobes. Guess what happens the next time you start the engines and the cam lobes have rust forming on them?

The pictures posted of the intake gaskets clearly show water was leaking in from the intakes, and the intake gasket around the ports was/were completely split, allowing a serious vaccuum leak. The vacuum leak can lean things out to the point of ring damage, valve damage, etc.

To me, the problems I see with this situation leads me to believe the intake gaskets were the culprit. I dont think the machine work, parts used, was the problem.

It looks to me that the intakes just were not torqued down properly. Everything happens for a reason, and this is the only conclusion I can come to about these engines issues.

If water was leaking into the oil, and the intake gaskets were leaking (pretty clear they were), and one decides to keep running them like that, not knowing something is wrong, well then you end up with junk in less than 20 hours.

Since I see everyone is jumping all over Mike here, maybe some of you guys should go back to the beginning of the thread.

Mike started out asking questions, and offering advice. Mike has been playing with and building engines for a long long time. From twin turbo stuff to his current 8.3L whippled engines. He's no dummy when it comes to this.

He considered buying the cranks for mr schmidt, on the up and up. All he did was ask for pictures of the journals, and Mr. schmidt blew up at him! With sarcasm and cockiness, because Mike wanted pics of the journals before he sent any money?? That is what triggered Mike's responses towards schmidt after all that. Try to help and get blasted?

Everyone is being really thin skinned. Grab a tampon, stop the bleeding, and lets get back to engine talk. :cartman:

-1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000:lol hit::lolhit::lolhit:

From what i have read , engines were run with stock Merc exhaust resulting in a bad case of reversion . Intakes were removed to clean foamy milk maybe by someone who did not know or had ever seen what reversion will do . Reinstalled intakes thinking this is a simple nonthinking process only for the problem to continue and get considerably worse . Engines were free revved to hell trying to make them idle . Good headers installed but it was much too late , damage was done . Not pointing fingers.....pure speculation on my part.....just trying to piece together the evidence as presented . Read the complete thread and draw your own conclusions . Engage brain before running mouth . One more thought , Knowledge gained IS in direct proportion to parts ruined . Have a nice day....:ernaehrung004:.....:boat:

MILD THUNDER,you are absolutly correct,i was trying to help mr schmidt,and i would have bought the cranks for some builds i am going to do,i could have saved my cust some money,and schmidt went balistic because i asked for a picture,i did not think he would mind taking&sending me a few closeups of the journals,after all,he posted a lot of pictures on this thread,at this point,i think i will no longer offer any help to anyone.i have nothing against mr schmidt,i understand that he has had a bad experiance with all this,maybe he misunderstood my intentions when i asked for pictures,its hard to judge the condition of the journals from the pictures he posted,maybe he thaught i was jacking with him,i was not,no matter,its all good.

"before running mouth . One more thought , Knowledge gained IS in direct proportion to parts ruined ."


well... in some circles people like to gain the knowledge BEFORE the parts get scrapped. your time and money are better spent knowing what you are doing and doing it right the first time rather than doing it over and over again and just throwing ruined stuff away...

First off......Don't run your mouse over the Office Depot banner on the bottom of the page or you might get a really annoying pop-up.

Mike, there were lots of close-ups of the crank journals and one clearly looks blued. It's not the chamfering that ruined them, it was probably heat. A blued journal, AFAIK, has lost it's case hardening. Those cranks are done and you know it and your offer to buy them was BS.

Your first posts on this thread were OK but then you just started to post crap that did not help. It is detrimental to this board when threads go bad like that.

you sir are incorrect,i had every intention of bying these cranks if the journals were not damaged by heat,allthough i saw bluing in one picture,mr schmidt said there was no bluing,this is why i asked him for pictures,i agree,the radiusing of the oil holes would cause no problems,this is why i was interested in them.i believe mr schmidt refused to send pictures because the cranks have blued journals,and his smart azzed remarks were because he got caught in a lie,why else would he refuse to send pictures,only a fool would throw 2 cranks in the garbage if they were good.i believe mr schmidt was not truthful about this whole thread,as i said before,i came on here trying to help find a cause of the failures,the failures were caused from water in the oil,plain&simple.just so you know,i buy a lot of parts from swap and shop,i am honest&fair,and you can think what you want about my offer to buy the cranks,but at 200 each,if they were not badly blued,i would have paid him however he wanted to be paid,that,s how i do things.

Then you shouldn't say anything at all. Posting with a "top secret source" is posting nothing but rumors and/or hearsay.

I don't have a "problem with it", it just makes you lose all credibility in my opinion(and probably many others).

Good afternoon, not trying to stir the pot but I have been following this thread and have a few questions. I've built some drag cars and boat motors. and also worked as a marine diesel mechanic. in the military. first post #1/2 bearings look to be damaged from what is ussually fuel-oil dilution or water contamination. post#27/28 premature damage from trash and fuel-oil dilution or water contamination. post #50 is that white bathtub silcone caulk on the water ports and also china wall? never seen white caulk used in engine assembly or available for machinery. also looks to be very little contact at the bottom of water ports and gasket. maybe misaligned or incorrect gasket? just say'n

lol thats funny the guy who can`t write a proper English sentence telling me to go color, good one.
You sure can dish it but can`t take it.
Now Joe says you`re an engine builder well it all makes sense.. customers are all idiots and engine builders cant do no wrong.. I get the bias now.

Lets be civil and professional with our comments!
 

I have been quietly reading and absorbing this entire thread and post and it seems to be a thread that is "selfdestructive" for all parties and posters combined.
Let me put my thoughts here, not necessarily opinon, just thoughts.
1. I don't know the engine owner at all.
2. I do know Dean Gellner and I can say I have great respect for his reputation and his passion for his business and this sport. I as most on here must also take the owner Mr. Scmidt at his word that he does not feel he was the cause of the issues that developed with his engines. Time and facts will bear out the truth "Hopefully"
3. On these type of unfortunate situations we must unless we, "know without question", the exact facts, and exact happenings that most of the time the real causes and truths may lie somewhere in an as of yet clearly undefined middleground.
4. Time is the most important thing for resolution it seems on matters like this because generally with time, tempers moderate, egos grow smaller and the ALL real facts usually float to the surface.
I think everyone here except possibly the owner and the builders involved need to back off a bit and reappraise their comments, opinions and positions and let this situation shake out more and hopefully the total reasons for these conditions and failures will become apparent and then everyone who chooses can form their own feelings and positions on what "Really happened" and what the Total "Real Causes "were.

I have some questions here and they are:
1. Why did it take two years to get two engines built and delivered? All the real reasons!
2. What were Mr Schmidt's instructions to the builder, all instructions and requests?
3. Did Mr Schmidt specify any limitations on specified equipment and build based on economics or dollars?
4. What equipment both new and used did Mr. Schmidt supply to the builder. Everything! What equipment new and used was supplied by the builder?
5. Were the engines dynoed after the build? If not why not?
6. In what state were the engines delivered to the owner and what rigging and equipment did the owner install and use on the engines beyond the true build as delivered?
7. Were there any other issues that the engines expierenced after they were first installed and run from hour 1? The Truth!
8. Did the owner Mr. Schmidt make his first and initial contact after expierencing any issue with the engines to the builder first. What information was exchanged, what were the problems (all) defined and were possible solutions discussed or agreed to ?
Just some good solid questions here that may help paint the total situation as it developed and may shed good true light on what really went wrong here.
As an engine builder I can admit and will admit that we sometimes make mistakes and mistakes are sometimes made by those who work and supply parts, work and equipment to us. I can also admit that sometimes owners and engine users sometimes have restricted memory and an adversity to admitting complicity also.
So in a case like this I think its better for everybody to back up a bit, take a big breath, think carefully and conciencously before you speak and write and lets all hope for the best solutions and outcomes for those envolved!
Lets hope calm heads prevail and we can see a good future for all envolved!

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

Good grief, what a chit show of a thread this one is!!! I can't believe that I'm admitting it, but just read the whole thing. :blahblah:

I'm not an engine builder and don't know/can't decide over what the cause of a 20 hour failure of both engines is, but have had experiences with several engine builders over the last 20+ years (some good, some REALLY bad) and number 1 above is the only thing that I can't understand. I don't know any of the parties in this thread......and have heard good things about Mr. Gellner.... but have also heard first hand from at least a half-dozen people that a set of engines has taken 1.5 years plus to get delivery.

How in the phuck does that happen?

Not trying to start any chit...just asking one question.

Craig

my guess is you may have had a bad experiance with a builder somewhear along the line.im not saying that a builder cant make a mistake,i am still not sure what mr schmidt was trying to do,and at this point,i dont care,we all have the right to think what we want,as i said,im done with this thread,carry on.

and we are all entitled to have an opinion:daz:

Done. Really?

2:08 hours later and he's still going. Take your meds Ticktack.

bob,you can tell time:lolhit::lolhit:

I wonder if the engines were run with water in the oil for 20 hours???

I am going to post this without having read the last probably 30-40 posts, just for the fact they are of no interest to me. Next – I contacted Dean how I saw fit (in writing), and wanted the same back. I have the history with them, a lot more than most, and I choose not to send anything back there based on past experience. MY CHOICE! I did not ask for anything from him, I don’t want anything from him. For the record again, there was no catastrophic failure and no blow up.

Sad truth, but this thread is more the norm, than exception of how things happen here. It doesn’t matter what, or how, or when it was posted…the outcome was going to be the same because that is what people here want.

I actually thought some people would care about a very interesting situation. To me this was very unique, and may have been that one-in-a-million fluke. This had me very perplexed and intrigued to find a/some reason(s) as to what was going on. I did learn a lot talking to people, I never thought I would talk to, along with some experts that saw this and did their own research and passed additional avenues on to me. Really interesting is we are still doing research and talking to different people (even the guy from the grinding chamfers video), because there are so many variables in many different aspects of HP engine building…I can’t find anybody to be 100% wrong, or 100% right. There are as many variables and possibilities as there are people to ask. The one thing I do know is there is not one single thing wrong enough (a smoking gun) – it seems I had the perfect storm – probably just the right combination of something. A real shame bad past experience won’t allow a different positive outcome.

All real facts and knowledge seems to be lost her; because it seems no matter what, people want their opinions to be right, and even try to force facts to match (name calling begin). The others just keep pushing and pushing for the confrontation, and the drama of a fight and argument (even make up outright lies about super top secret tweaker information). It seems it is impossible to have any kind of healthy debate, and pass good information back and forth and CHALLENGE each other to learn and gain any knowledge, and certainly not accept anything outside box.
If someone has genuine questions I don’t mind answering anything. I would have loved to share all these different professionals’ facts, theories and information here, but it falls on deaf ears. Again the information I posted is correct as far as dimensional data, and operating data – rigging was done by a professional in Cleveland.
You know the saddest part of the WHOLE experience…another boater who really doesn’t enjoy boating anymore.
At least you all had a really good fight, not sure about what!

[QUOTE=yschmidt;3630100]You know the saddest part of the WHOLE experience…another boater who really doesn’t enjoy boating anymore.
QUOTE]

Yankee, I don't think anyone here truly wants to see you have these problems. There was alot of stuff posted here that got carried away, including some of my posts.

So, why don't we get past the finger pointing, name calling, sarcasm, etc, and get back to the problem, finding out why it happened, and getting your boat back in the water. Once it is back in and running well, as crazy as it sounds now, it will all be behind you and you'll be a happy boater. Why don't you post up some pics of your boat. From what I remember its a pretty awesome looking Bullet! That should turn this thread around for the positive.

So we know you choose not to deal with Dean Gellner, based on your choice. So whats the new direction? Gameplan?

+1....I have very lilttle exp in any mechanical applications but I do enjoy learning and reading esp when something so off the wall can happen & yankey as mentioned maybe it was multiple factors. So wahts the next step & let see a pic of that bullet






[QUOTE=MILD THUNDER;3630181]

1+ I have been following this thread because I am interested in what caused your engine failure. All the BS got annoying. I had the rebuilt engine in my boat blow two weeks after I bought it. I built my new engine myself (only 400HP) and has been running great. I have now have been bitten by the HP bug and want to build a new 500-600HP engine. I like threads like this because they have valuble information that people can use. I did most of my research for the engine I built from threads on here.


[QUOTE=paintman;3631474]+1....I have very lilttle exp in any mechanical applications but I do enjoy learning and reading esp when something so off the wall can happen & yankey as mentioned maybe it was multiple factors. So wahts the next step & let see a pic of that bullet

[QUOTE=Sunrocket24;3631632]1+ I have been following this thread because I am interested in what caused your engine failure. All the BS got annoying. I had the rebuilt engine in my boat blow two weeks after I bought it. I built my new engine myself (only 400HP) and has been running great. I have now have been bitten by the HP bug and want to build a new 500-600HP engine. I like threads like this because they have valuble information that people can use. I did most of my research for the engine I built from threads on here.



what valuable information ?

he reported all the mechanical specifications at teardown as within specification and tolerance.

he reported perfect temperatures and pressures while it was running.

he reported no performance issues and i'm not sure , unless i missed it somewhere, why he did the leakdown in the first place.

the assembly was done by a top flight professional and the owner reports not only standard maintainence but what some might consider excessive maintainence.

in spite of all that, the bearings are scrap as are a lot of other parts apparently.

i have not read a single definite identification of cause.

i have not read anything from anyone that has actually touched the parts that says " this is what i found that is wrong and with this wrong it was the proximate cause for the failure" or anything that even approaches that.

as i said 20 pages ago... nothing happens for no reason. and the chances of these " 8 things going wrong simultaneously" explanations are simply ridiculous. maybe a motor put together by a complete unskilled novice may have a several things done badly but not a well trained and well experienced professional.

so my advice would be to be quite careful what you think you are learning from this thread. i read it full of voodoo and folklore and space alien reasoning and seriously short of clinical and objective scientific analysis and conclusion.

it is also my personal opinion that there is some pretty important data missing from the time the motor left the builder to when it appeared in photo's here... but thats just my opinion.

I said I like threads LIKE this one.

Yes, there is not any valuable information on what caused the failure in this thread because everyone to busy bashing each other.

Yes, I agree there is some data missing. It would be nice if this thread got back to the point of finding out what caused the failure.

[QUOTE=stevesxm;3631800]

This thread needs put out of it's misery already . Sorry guys , ya can't get blood from a stone . I'm done....:pacifier:.....:traurig001:.....:Whatever:

Wow. Got busy and missed all this fun. :rolleyes:

Let's is a contraction for "let us". Us meaning everyone.
New sentence. New paragraph. This denotes a new and separate
thought. I singled no one out with the "jo" statement. However I
may have had the chief antagonist in mind when I wrote it. :lolhit:

ROTAX454 - I PM'd you but you did not read it or chose to not
respond. I will respond here and hope it does not piss you off
further. My only problem with your post was I think you wanted to
say "extend an olive branch" instead of "Oak leaf of friendship". I
believe you are naive to think that these two parties will ever get
together again. In a normal situation then yes your thought would
be proper. Not here. I don't like to quote entire posts especially if
they contain multiple thoughts, questions, or pictures. In my case
I accidentally erased some words that I think confused and upset
ROTAX454. I should have seen that. My butt covering comment is
squarely on Dean. He replied with overly emotional posts that were
not germane to the questions of failure analysis. Does knowing,
talking to, or doing business with these two individuals matter here?
What research do you think I should do? About what?

I can not and will not accept a 23 month wait time for engines.
Unacceptable. Unprofessional. Why is this not stressed? In a normal
situation it would be stupid for a customer to go anywhere else but
back to the original builder, but that is not the case is it? Have you
guys not read the posts and emails from the Schmidts? Do you not
feel the anguish, hurt, and now anger? Do you really believe they
can get together again and work things out? I don't. I want to learn
why these failures happen.

I don't think Mr. Schmidt has been above board with all of his actions.
I think Gellner Engineering INC. is an excellent outfit. That is why
this situation is so troubling to me.

* Disclaimer *
I have only had the time to read up to page 18. I will try to finish
tomorrow. My thoughts and opinions pertain to those pages only.
I hope there is some good news later in this thread.

It's a rainy Saturday and I've read the whole thread from front to back so I'm gonna make one post and any of you that don't like it or me is fine, but I think I have a couple of things to offer that have not been established yet.

The whole problem here goes back to the 18 to 21 months that the engines took to build in the first place and all the additional bleeding comes up afterward.

I've been right where Yankey is only with another builder (as have many others on this board) and my reason for not going back to the guy who got me the first time was that I paid for service and specific things the first time, with hard earned money, waited a long time to get them back, and while I didn't wait 18 to 21 months like Yankey, it was obvious I had been led down the primrose path, when it wasn't right, so I wasn't going back for another dose.

I think I had the same builder as the other poster here that pulled his engine 11 times before he got it right, and there is another thread here about that if it was the same guy. I'm not going to live long enough to pull my stuff 11 times nor do I have the patience, but I'm glad he got justification. I chose another course, not to dwell on the bad experience, found a really good builder, spent a lot more money and found happiness with that builder, whom I trust.

Many of you here have found that same happiness with the builder in question and he has an excellent reputation in the high performance world, but that doesn't make him a Saint.

Anyway, I have had the pleasure of knowing Yankey over the last 2 years while he was living in SC and since most here don't know Yankey, I'll let you know that while he's not a Saint either, you have totally under estimated not only his excellent character, but also his ability, knowledge and above all the fact that he is as straight a shooter as ever drew a breath, so I don't blame him for being suspicious and wanting to know if he got less than he paid for or luckily in his case, the motors didn't grenade, but it wouldn't have been much longer til they would have. He explained why he tore the motors down and also, if any of you that have cut him down did know Yankey, you would then know that he is highly educated in the mechanical field, is very mechanically inclined in his own right (he doesn't build championship race engines like so many of you do) but from what I've seen of his abilities, he could, and once he decided he was throwing good money after bad and took the bull by the horns the work he has re-done on the boat himself takes a back seat to no one. As a matter of fact, of the work that I have seen that he has performed himself on the boat it is obvious that he is somewhere between a fanatic and an obsessive compulsive when it comes to doing things right.

I don't know about any secret header leak or any reversion or any oil pan full of water, but I do know that about every time he tried to go boating there would be a minor issue and each time after some investigation, he would find something that was not remotely what you would expect from a "world champion, world reknown, eat, sleep, breathe horsepower engine builder" and you certainly would have to think that in 18 to 21 months of build time, that both engines would not be experiencing the same identical problem, and I doubt seriously that both of them would have had the same issues coordinated simultaneous unless there were a problem in the engine build process, as I don't think all or any headers were leaking, etc. like the CIA Tkach has proposed, but until his source can be exposed, we'll never know.

Yankey provided all the technical clearance data and obviously most if not all of that was correct, so it appears that the assembly for the most part was proper, but don't you have to wonder about the slag in the ports and some of the other stuff he has pointed out, not to mention all of the bearings, and I think some of the methodology regarding undersizing or oversizing bearings, and the cams and rollers being scarred up. Thats 2 engines not one engine experiencing what was going to be a catastropic failure, and from that some of the manufacturing experts and some of the bearing experts deemed that the cranks being cut the way they were and the use of a particular bearing were a recipe for what was getting ready to happen.

Many if not all of you have missed the fact that he has 2 engines, not 1 engine that identically have the same issues, so that in itself leads me to believe that it can be narrowed down to eliminate just about everything to who made the parts selection, who did the machining, and probably secondarily who did the assembly.

If Yankey picked out the parts, did the machine work, was satisfied with the parts and machine work and did the assembly, then it is all Yankey's fault. I don't think he did any of that.

If someone else picked out the parts, did the machine work and was satisfied with that, completed the assembly and was satisfied with that and both motors are just before blowing up for the exact same reason, in a very short time span, and if the parts are not failing due to poor manufacturing or misuse, then someone must have made a mistake with some part of the machining, parts selection and or build process or a combination of all 3.

Most likely the whole thing could have been rectified without one word on a public forum, except the fact that it took somewhere between 18 and 21 months to get it wrong the first time, so it would be legitimate to think it would take another 18 to 21 months to "maybe" get it right the next time.

I couldn't live with that from anyone, let alone "the world champion", and I think Yankey feels the same, and like so many of us who have gotten something a little different than we expected, he came here for information and consolation and he did make a valid attempt at avoiding every poster who asked who the builder was. I even had to look at the pictures more than once to see the name on the crank, and if he put his name on it then it must have gotten his seal of approval.

Mr Raylar, your post was excellent, down to earth, and understandable and I appreciate your wealth of knowledge, as was the info provided by MER from whatever source it was derived, and several others contributed good, valuable information early on, before it bacame a $hit slinging affair.

Mr Tkach, you were helping up until you obligated yourself to buy the cranks then decided you didn't want to buy the cranks, and you tried to make Yankey the scapegoat by saying he wouldn't send you pictures. This thread is full of pictures of the cranks and you said in writing you would take the cranks, and all you've done from that point is to turn this into a $hit slinging match. How about this, "the cranks were turning blue and I don't think I want to buy them" would have sufficed.

Yankey, I know you are considering taking a similar path that I did with another builder and a alternative parts selection and I truly hope that you can find renewed excitement once it is back on the water. With the beautiful work you have done with the rigging, not to mention what a great hull you have, it will be great with reliable power. We sure miss you and your wife and I hope you will come back to SC and visit with us this summer and you know you are always welcome to stay at my place and to use my boat.

To the rest of the Gellner supporters of which there are many, and no doubt the accomplishments are many, many, and to Mr. Gellner, your reputation precedes you 99.44% of the time, but since I have been an eye witness to what Yankey disassembled, along with some of the other earlier issues he found immediately after your build, (whether you think he should have disassembled your work or not and that lets you off the hook) I will say that all the praise, and accomplishment in the world can be torn down by one bad job and the far reaching bad rap you can get if you don't do the right thing and rectify it to the customer's satisfaction, and from what I have seen, this is one time that the customer got short changed. It may never happen again and it may have never happened before, but only knowing for sure what I can see, and what I have seen while Yankey was in SC, he did not get what he bargained for. You have made numereous statements on here so I have one question for you. Why did it take 18 to 21 months to do the build?

I have had more than one problem, error in judgment, or outright f***up in my field of expertise over the last 35 years, and I think the only reason I'm still in business in today's economy is because I always bit the bullet no matter the cost to make the job right and the customer as happy as possible. For that reason, I still have most if not all of those same customers.

I thank the members for the opportunity to say my peace.
The floor is yours.

thirdchild you hit the nail on the head