wouldn't all those coincidental catastrophes leave some sort of evidence ? like all the top rings broken, burned pistons , and an oil pan full of sludge just to name a few ? and what about the perfect temps and pressures ?

i'm more interested in the clevite engineers exact words...

Multiple oil changes in the 20 hrs of use, how hard was it run, milky oil sitting on the top of the block. A lot more info is needed to really be able to tell, and maybe not even then. Didn't see the pan or gauges. Like I said, only a guess.

Its no secret at this point the Builder was Dean Gellner.

Ive been to Deans shop, he took me on a entire tour of the shop, explaining in depth what he does step by step in a engine build. He was very detailed on everything. I am no engine builder, but then again I'm not exactly a novice around engines. I was impressed with Dean's knowledge, from machining, to rigging fuel systems, oil systems, etc.

I've never heard anyone complain about Dean's work, and have had many conversations about him, and they've all ended with "Dean builds one hell of a engine". I'm sure thats why you brought your engines to him in the first place, because of his reputation. With that being said, it really doesnt mean squat in this scenerio.

Questions

Did Dean assemble the entire engine?? Im assuming yes because you say the intake gaskets were torn, and we are seeing signs of water in the oil.

What was the water PSI after installed in the boat? Ive seen intake gaskets blow/leak from too much water PSI, same for head gaskets too.


Water in oil can kill bearings, lifters, rockers, cams, in a hurry. Overly rich carburetors can wash down cylinder walls and ruin a perfectly good set of rings in a hurry. That will also lead to excessive bearing wear, cam wear, etc etc. Not enough timing can tulip valves in a hurry. Too much timing can take out pistons and headgaskets in a hurry.

Its almost looking to me like the problem was in the rigging or tuning,
Who did the rigging?? Who did the tuning??

Just because someone has a good reputation doesn't mean that they always do a good job, there is always the first time for everything. There are other threads of people who had engines built from reputable builders that have had problems also, everyone is always quick to blame the the owner of the engine for doing something wrong when all he wants is to get what he paid for and to go enjoy boating. I had a similar experience from a different builder and got screwed, glad it was only one motor.

He was a Mahle engineer...and those actually were some of his exact words. You wouldn't believe me if I told you anyway. Maybe you should do your due diligence, so you could believe what you hear.

Uhhh, if you read it only got to 5000 RPM once for less than a minute. I guess you need me to explain too many oil changes?
1. The day after I finally got it back, out of precaution changed oil and filter.
2. At 6 hrs before I put it into storage for the winter...6 hrs is because it took 23 months to get it back after dropping the motors off, and it showed up Sept. 17, 2010 (pulled to have motors out Oct. 11, 2008).
3. When I decided to do a few upgrades while fixing all the rigging issues, I added an oil pump out system, and guess what the oil had to be drained (and I certainly wasn't putting it back in) - I know it only had like 10 minutes to warm it up and go 150' to the ramp.
4. At 14 hrs - When I ran it and got the leak that required the intake to be removed, I changed it out of precaution and check the oil.

And what picture of the pan do you want? Are you looking for sludge...is that it? It was a brand new 10qt Canton pan.

Seriously you want a picture of my gauge...seriously? Action shot(s)? Sitting at the dock lounging? Maybe with a beer sitting on it? Do you want it maybe with other gauges, possibly the steering wheel or real dirty with the shifters?

Funny...there is enough info here for you to claim they are good...recommend me using them...you offer to buy them...now they are suspect.

Back to the trash. Funny.

Have watched this thread long enough. Here are some facts not opinions. This is just pertaining to Main bearings. The rods are depending on the oil supply from the mains, which is totally dependent on oil lead in or tear drop shape if you call it that,,how much oil volume do you feel is lost by over sizing the lead in on main surface, if to wide it will simply dump oil at that point. The lead in groove provides a low pressure area to enhance the oil flow to rod journals. I have not seen any crankshafts with lead in groove on the rod journal surfaces.
If you would like to do a search on full grooved main bearings you will find this same information. I have spoken with my Clevite rep in reference to this Thread. These bearings are no longer mfg, they require more oil volume, which requires more hp from the circle track circuit. They have even shortened up the upper bearing groove also, before it reaches the parting line. Crankshafts have also gone to smaller oil galley holes being drilled into them. Nothing is wrong will a lead in slot as long as its been done properly, to wide will just dump oil volume, same goes for rod journal if any groove it should be a trailing groove complete opposite of main.

Various forms of main bearing grooving have been used over the years. We are frequently asked what difference grooving makes.
First, it’s essential to understand that bearings depend on a film of oil to keep them separated from the shaft surface. This oil film is developed by shaft rotation. as the shaft rotates it pulls oil into the loaded area of the bearing and rides up on this film much like a tire hydroplaning on wet pavement. Grooving in a bearing acts like tread in a tire to break up the oil film. While you want your tires to grip the road, you don’t want your bearings to grip the shaft.
The primary reason for having any grooving in a main bearing is to provide oil to the connecting rods. Without rod bearings to feed, a simple oil hole would be sufficient to lubricate a main bearing. Many early engines used full grooved bearings and some even used multiple grooves. As engine and bearing technology developed, bearing grooving was removed from modern lower main bearings. The result is in a thicker film of oil for the shaft to ride on. This provides a greater safety margin and improved bearing life.
In an effort to develop the best possible main bearing designs for performance engines, we’ve investigated the effects of main bearing grooving on bearing performance. A simple 180° groove in the upper main shell is still the best overall design.
While a slightly shorter groove of 140° provides a marginal gain, most of the benefit is to the upper shell, which doesn’t need improvement. On the other hand, extending the groove into the lower half, even as little as 20° at each parting line (220° in total), takes away from upper bearing performance without providing any benefit to the lower half. It’s also interesting to note that as groove length increases so do horsepower loss and Peak Oil Film Pressure which is transmitted directly to the bearing.
P-Series Bearings
These are not to be confused with the standard passenger car and light truck parts for the same retention applications which also have a “P” suffix letter. These high performance parts have unique core part numbers different from the standard parts for the same application. P-Series parts are the oldest series of Clevite high performance bearings. The rod bearings in this series typically have the greatest amount of eccentricity. Most rod bearings are available either with or without dowel holes for use in aluminum rods. Most P-Series main sets are full grooved to maximize oil flow to the rod bearings. Both rods and mains have high crush for maximum retention, and a reduced overlay thickness to prevent overlay fatigue, sometimes referred to as hen tracking.
Rod bearings use a hardened steel back for added strength and resistance to fretting. Extra clearance rod bearings are available for .001” additional clearance and select fitting. Use the P-Series rods where extremely high RPM’s cause severe rod bore close-in. This is typically indicated by nearly full parting line to parting line shaft contact with bearings having less eccentricity. Use P-Series mains where higher eccentricity is desired to narrow bearing contact patterns and to provide increased oiling to rod earings. Rod bearing oil starvation is typically indicated by polishing and smearing of the bearing surface, possibly accompanied by discoloration predominantly concentrated at the axial center of the bearings.
H-Series Bearings
These bearings are identified by a letter H in the part number suffix. Part numbering is based on the same core number as the standard passenger car parts for the same application. These bearings were developed primarily for use in NASCAR type racing, but are suitable for all types of competition engines.

That makes sense to me. The intake gaskets that "split" between the ports=lean! That can hurt the valves, rings, headgaskets, etc.

Water leaking into the crankcase from the intake seal=no good for anything inside the engine, from bearings to lifters, to rings. 20 Hours is a LONG time if water is in the oil, or the engine is running lean. I am lucky if I put 20 hours on a season on my boat. I couldnt imagine how the engines would look inside if i ran with water in the oil, or intake gaskets leaking between cylinders all season.

If the bottom end clearances were ok, and the parts used were new/ok, and the proper rings used and fitted, I just cant see that being a problem. I do know this wasnt Dean Gellners first engine build. These guys were building boat racing engines for a long time, not to mention many pleasure boat engines for poker runners, and a ton of drag stuff. Im sure by this time, he can figure out how to assemble a big block.

Granted...mistakes can be made, but both engines?? Its not like maybe he forgot to torque down a rod cap, or a rocker arm.

Im wondering if it can be as simple as not torqing the intake manifolds down enough, and that caused the vacuum leaks and oil leaks and water in oil. I retorque my intakes after a heat cycle or two, after having a similar issue. As for the silicone around the water jackets being "Mickey Mouse", IDK, I do it when I install a intake. Lots of times blocks have been decked, heads have been milled, and the intake manifold fitment is overlooked.

Forgot to ask, from the pictures of the intake gaskets, its obvious the one where the gasket split around the intake port, was run that way, since the paint is bubbled and peeled from raw gasoline around the crack.

That crack in the gasket looks to me like it would cause a vacuum leak easy enough to detect. The engine should have been idling high with a leak like that going on. I would have probably noticed that right off the bat when that was going on.

Was the engine idling high??? I would think it would have been.