Head Rebuilding
 

Ok I have a question for you guys. I took in a set of GM 188 heads to have a valve job done, I've given a quote after inspection of 560.00 because all the valve seats needed to be replaced, although I feel they looked fine. I went to pick them up and I have a bill for 727.00. Needless to say I'm pissed! Is there such a thing as a special marine valve seat, I've never heard of such a thing yet they claim there is. The part number is PFC SB2000-3N. Does this mean anything to anyone? Before I raise holy hell on this I want to get some feed back from you guys first.

Here is what was done-
Valve Job, clean heads and magnaflux- $220.00
unknown charge 8 @ $8 - $ 64.00
Unknown charge 8 @ $20 $160.00
Valve Seat [email protected] $184.72
Valve [email protected] $ 23.16
3/8 Seals Crane 99822-16 $ 30.99
Remove broken bolt $30.00
Total $727.20

Here is bit more info on the valve seat its from SBI and its the star series. It seems that these are for propane engines and for up to 1600 degrees. Seems a bit overkill especially when it appears they replaced 2 valves with $11 std valves.

SB2000-3N is a Jloy valve seat part number. It's not specifically marine, but it is a very hard material, and is the same seat that I use in all GM big block marine heads. The material withstands the higher cylinder/exhaust tems of a marine environment better than most materials.

GM uses a powdered metal seat in the 188 head, and these seats have a tendency to loose their press fit in the head and fall out. I replace the powdered metal seats in all of these heads that come through my shop with the SB2000-3N seats. I don't even look twice at them, it just gets done. Often the seats look fine, but they can be popped right out of the head with a screwdriver, with very little effort.

A complete valve job (which includes cleaning and magnafluxing), resurface both heads, installing eight seats, with seals, seats, and new 7* locks would run you about $615.00, plus tax, at my shop. That wouldn't include any guide work or removal of broken bolts, etc. Pricing can vary quite a bit by region, but this oughta give you some point of reference.

i
The valve seat cost is HIGH, @ 23.09 is what I pay for Copper alloy seats(beryllium copper) for a exhaust seat.The unknown charge of 8 each could be installing seat but usually its a set-up then charge for cutting seat out then over sizing hole for new seat. I would be concerned of a 11.00 valve was it the intake or exhaust?

That's correct. SBI is the company, Jloy is the brand name. Like I said, I use this seat exclusively on marine heads, and have had excellent luck. Personally, I don't think there can be too much overkill on a marine engine.

I sell the seat itself (not including insatllation labor) for $12 something each. I see they charged you $20 something. However, I buy direct from SBI, at WD pricing. Your machine shop may not be direct, and have to buy through another supplier, so their deal may not be as deep. $23.09 is a bit steep for that seat.

i have seen several bbc engines reduced to junk because of the seats gm uses.

I have the piston to prove this. It is well ventilated.

Ok thanks guys! You learn something new everyday. I see lots of info regarding valves but I've never heard anyone talk of the valve seat material. As far as the valves go, I don't know if they're intake or exhaust. I went into the place I took the heads, to pick up a few other things as well as the heads. When the price was $180 more than what I was told I was a bit upset, so I left the heads there until I talk to the shop on monday. Either way thanks for the info on this!

ya,and the trash flows threwout the whole engine,i rebuilt one for a guy a few years back,at least the block&crank were still good.

My head guy installed all new seats in my heads. He used the same fancy valve seats merc racing uses on the 1075 engines. I can't recall what they are made out of, but could be beryllium copper material. I stressed I wanted the good seats, as did the machine shop,

Another thing I was told, was that for a marine application, especially supercharged, you wan't to keep a wide seat width to help cool the exhaust valve.

Your price seems inline compared to what I have paid around here, alot of shops make there money nickel diming you, my head guy does the same thing and I put up with it because I always get the results I want. I would be concerned about the 11$ valve and would look into that fruther, Smitty

end,
The only two issues I would have would be
1. The price of the valve seats, I may be worng but I am pretty sure they cost me about $8 and are the ones for all of the Mercruiser heads. I would probably sell them for $12 or so.
2. And this would be my big gripe . . . the fact that the price was so much higher than you were quoted without somebody not having let you know ahead of time. I am absolutely anal about letting a customer know ahead of time if the work is going to cost more than I originally qouted.

The only other thing would be the fact that he used Teflon valve stem seals. I know this is mostly personal preference but I dont know anyone that really uses them any more. The metal case Viton seals are what everyone I know has gone to. Once again, this is more personal preference than anything.

I would be curious what the $64 labor charge was for.

Other than that the labor charges are in line with what I charge.

Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md

Valve Seat [email protected] $184.72
Valve [email protected] $ 23.16
Seems backwards.....I cant think of ANY qaulity marine valve only costing 11.58

At $11 and some change, it's likely that those were intake valves that were replaced. A GM head doesn't have anything fancy in it far as intake valves go. A run of the mill, stock replacement intake valve, such as a Sealed Power or equivalent is probably only about that much.

Mas,
If it is just the base level Mercruiser valve, that is about right, especially for an intake. They are nothing more than the same valve that GM uses in thier truck heads. As soon as you get into the HP engines though and the Inconel exhaust valves, the price certainly goes up :)

Also, If it is indeed a full teflon seal that was used, I tend to agree with BillK... I'm not a big fan either. Over time, the banded type full teflon seal tends to cause alot of stem wear in the seal area. Sealed Power makes a positive type, teflon inserted, rubber seal (ST2014) which I've used with good results. Or, as Bill stated, a metal case Viton seal is a good choice. Like he said, mostly a matter of personal preference.

Well on Monday I'm going to call and ask about the misc charges and also ask what is up with the 2, $11 valves. The engines are going to be roughly 460 hp, nothing crazy and I don't really get on my engines that hard for any extended period. I really just wanted to freshen up the heads and replace them in a couple of years with AFR's or the Dart Iron eagles. It sounds like the price is inline but like others have said, when I give someone a price for something thats the price unless I get the OK from the customer up front, otherwise I eat the difference. Lessen learned with this shop.

The part number for the valve was PFT 01600, I googled it and didn't come up with anything so until I call them I have no idea what that is. The valve seals they wanted to use were the factory seals but they would fit inside the spring (isky SP 8005) which I supplied. They wanted to chage me $85 to mill the guide for the stock seal to work. I told them, order the correct seals!

Again, thanks for all the info, at least I feel a bit better, even if my wallet may be a bit lighter.

01600 is an SBI Inconel exhaust valve. At $11, they definitely under-charged you for those. Sounds like they're a little out-to-lunch in the billing department.

I would agree with you 100% on that one! At least the parts used seem to be good.

Here ya go...

http://www.sbi-e-catalog.com/PartDet...artType=Valves

Thanks guys for your assistance with my billing issue. The shop dropped the price of the seats to $8.00. So all in all I feel that I got a pretty good deal for what I had done!