Whipple problems
 

I have a 1999 7.4 mpi. Ok so I recieved my Whipple kit just about one month ago. I changed my heads to the earlier design which I have been told is less prone to detonation. The large portions of the kit are well made and went on with no hassle at all. The other pieces of the kit such as the accesory brackets, hoses, and fuel fittings either didnt fit or required major changes to get installed contrary to their instructions. There were several important components missing from the kit like the coil bracket and fuel line adaptor but Dustin next day shipped them to me when I called him. Most of the bolts that came with the kit were too short or the wrong thread except for the intake bolts. Many many trips to the hardware store were needed.

Just before I did the install I had the engine checked for compression and everything else that might be a problem later on and it was just fine.

Anyway it took me all of eight hours to install the kit including the head swap. The boat should have been running three weeks ago except for one major problem - the computer. I sent it to them before I started on the install. Called them up to make sure they had already sent it back and they said it was already shipped out. I waited a week and no computer. Called them again and they told me it was still with them and they would next day it. that was on a thursday, I recieved the computer the following tuesday. Plugged it in just like I am supposed to do (battery disconnected/etc) and the boat barely ran. It covered the stern and everything behind it in black crud in a matter of seconds all the while warning alarms are ringing. I immeadately thought I had done somthing wrong in the install so I rechecked everything. Nothing I could see wrong. Took it up to the local hi-po shop and had them check it out and they tell me the computer is the culprit(code 51 but they say its the worst 51 they ever saw). Another call to Whipple and they tell me that this sometimes happens and to send the computer back to them and they will fix it. So I call the shop and tell them the news. After they pull the comp off the boat they tell me that it isn't the one that we sent Whipple. OK another call to whipple, they tell me that my original ECU is of a newer programming which is harder to flash burn than the older style so to save me money (umm isnt the reprograming included in the price of the kit?) they swapped me to the older version. Without asking me if I wanted to do it this way. This second opinion is costing me unnecessary money when it isnt even my mistake that is causing the problem.

So I give them the benifit of the doubt mainly because no one I ask can tell me wether what they say is true or not. I send them back the ECU next day air and call to make sure they recieved it. They said they got it and it was already on its way back to me. Good deal so I think.

Got the computer back this morning and installed it. hook the battery back up, check everything one more time, turn the key... fires one cylinder and dies. Try again, runs just about as long as it takes for me to let go of the key. Well I have been dealing with this thing all day now and cant even get it to stay running long enough to flash the timing gun once. The best that it did was run for 3 seconds and puff white smoke out of the flame arrestor when it died. Last time around it ran bad but we could still set base timing. I got 3 people here and we all think its the computer. Checked fuel pressure/ plugs-wires/ everything is fine.

As badly as the boat ran the first time around its worse now. I have had this boat finished for 3 weeks now just waiting on whipple to work out the computer issue and it still isn't resolved. To me the problem is worse because the engine wont even run now.

Does anyone here know if what Whipple told me about the newer ECU(1999 7.4 mpi) is true? I think all this hassle would be solved if they would simply reprogram the computer that was originally on my boat instead of giving me the run around about how much more difficult it supposoedly is to program. When I bought the kit I asked if there was anything extra I needed to be aware of and they told me that my only problem could be the L-29 heads so I changed them. They never told me that my ECU was going to be an issue and I really feel that whatever this computer they sent me is from it is the problem.

On monday I will call them once again and try to convince them to just reprogram my original ECU and i know hes going to tell me its going to cost extra. I dont think its fair for me to have to pay them to fix a mistake that they made do you?

Have any of you ever had these issues with your supercharger kits and how did you resolve them if you did?

Sorry to hear about your problems. I too have had very bad luck with a supercharger(not Whipple). It cost me a small fortune. I swore off sc's but now my boat is slow and dont have an extra $20,000 for a nice normally asperaited 650 hp motor. Now I am in the market for a sc again. Whipple, procharger or vortech? I have a 454 mag mpi and am very dissapointed in hearing this. I realise things can happen, but this the type of situation I went thru. Just tell the truth, not what you think will make things eaiser. I don't know if this is what Whipple has told you. Please keep us informed as this could have a big impact on my buying decision. Thanks Joe

The biggest problem I have had is not the missing parts, or the things I had to finesse to fit, its the computer. Without a properly functioning unit all my engine is is just a very expensive paperweight sitting in a bathtub. I really believe the ECU Whipple sent me is a malfunctioning unit. I wish they would have just reprogrammed my original ECU. Had they actually informed me of their intentions to switch them on me I would have told them I wanted MY ECU returned. I even wrote my name in big white paint on it just so this wouldnt happen. Two reprograms and the engine has run 2 horribly different ways. No other changes to the setup besides plugging in the ECU each time I get it. It is extremely frustrating to be held up because of somthing as simple as getting a base program properly flashed to a working ECU. On top of the fact that I was told AFTER I had already sent them my ECU that my particular year/model engine would cost extra to program. I bought the kit for a 310 hp 7.4 mpi to put on a 310 hp 7.4 mpi. I dont think it should be that much of an issue for them to program the ECU from a 310 hp 7.4 mpi. And I definately dont think it should cost extra to program the ECU from the engine the kit is intended for.

And this is the first time I have ever had problems from a supercharger install. I have put kits from both vortech and procharger onto cars and they too required a computer modification. Never had any issues like this before and those kits were substantually more complicated. I went with a Whipple on my boat because I had heard nothing but excellent things about them and they sold a kit specifically for my engine.

Man thats tough to hear.........I think its time for Dustin to personally step up.......

Dustin has stepped up. He handled the ECU the second time around. He is the one who told me it would be better to reprogram this older ECU than use my original.

I had a similar experience. My motor is the 1998 7.4 MPI. Originally the stock motor came with the old style computer. The old style computer is longer (rectangle shape) and the harness plugs into the ends. The new style is more square and the connectors plug in the top. The connectors are the same but the location of the wires is not innerchangable. When I added the Procharger to my engine I worked with Jim at Arizona speed and marine. He gave me a schematic so I could switch the wiring over to work with the new style computer. The benefit of the new computer is it is not necessary to use a spark control module and you can run a 2 bar map sensor that will recognize vacuum and boost. I am wondering if you are trying to use the wrong computer? !998-1999 was about the time they switched computers. I think you need to determine what you had originally and program that one. Just my .02.

About my computer, externally the one that was factory on my boat and the one Dustin sent me looked identical. The two harnesses plug in on the top of it not the ends. Dustin told me the reason he didnt give me my original computer back was because the data on my ECU was of a "newer style" and would take longer to program. I really wish he would just consider the possibility that the ECU he sent me is defective and simply reprogram the one I had. I at least know that the boat ran perfectly with the one I had, I even had it checked for codes just before I sent it off so that no existing problems on my boat would cause problems later.

He claims that to program the ECU I sent him would take too long (5-8 hours) to program and would have to charge me extra. Its already cost me near $200 just to have a shop tell me that the computer whipple sent me is malfunctioning. Not to mention all the time I have had to sit on hold just to talk to the guy and have him tell me its nothing to worry about. I think it would be good business for them just to reprogram my ECU and send it back. Or at the least send it back so I can put the thing back to stock and actually drive it. Understand that the ECU they sent me is so messed up that the boat wont even fire all eight cylinders before it dies. the first time they sent me this mystery ECU the boat would idle very rough but thats about it. It wont even run now!

Just a little more patience?
 

9L- I do feel your pain... I personally believe these type projects are best done in the early season because murphy has a way of helping out. (My hatch had two trips to the factory before they got it right).

I installed my Whipple kit for my 2001 454 mag efi in March of 2001 (3 hrs on the boat). All the peripherals/fasteners were as they should have been. I did have a computer problem- If i remember right it was Mefi3 Vs mefi 4 or something like that. when I was faced with the starting issues Dustin helped me walk thru the diagnosis to confirm all was in order. I eventually borrowed a computer from my buddy's 2000 502 mag and the boat lit right off so we new it was the computer. Seems like we shipped 2 or 3 before i was running. It was a frustrating wk or so but early in the season so far less painful.

The good news is that I've got 75 hrs on the boat now and the performance and reliability has been flawless, I had long forgotten my initial computer gremlins until I read your post.

Keep a level head and keep talking with Dustin, together you guys will get this worked out.

I talked to Dustin and he cleared a few things up for me. He told me that my Original computer had a version A code and he had sent me a computer with a version B code on it. I guess due to some miscommunication it was thought that i had recieved an older code but he says what I have is newer now. He told me that my problem is a lean start up condition and to raise fuel pressure until it starts (if it will start). I will try that right now. Either way he says that the ECU has to be sent back again for a reprogram. UGGGGHHH!

i've had s/c setups since the early 90's. b&m thru whipple. i can tell you that whipple is by far the best even though you have had some problems. the 7.4 l is very difficult to program at best, and yes, the newer chips are difficult to flash. i'm sorry your project is dragging on.

NineLives,

Be patient it will be worth it. There are allways Gremlins that pop up in a project like an SC install, its just the nature of the beast and something that makes the final results that much sweeter. I installed my Whipple last fall and it took a couple of reflashes to get it right but I've had almost 60 trouble free hours since, picked up 20 mph and improved my fuel economy - and Dustin has allways been a stand up guy and helped resolve every issue. It doesn't get much better than that!

I would like to clear a few things up. First, we were very leary of even shipping this system, we told your dealer that with the stock L29 heads, detonation is very, very likely and we do not want to sale a headache, they mentioned the head swap and we told them they can do as they wish, but the ECU calibration is done for the stock L29 engine, therefore, it may not work properly with the different style heads. We were very clear that this is in no way a complete ready to go system, since we've never tested it on that engine. We have run similar engines, but never that engine with those heads and this SC.

The ECU you sent back was of an earlier design, part # 7009 which we had not run into on the 7.4MPI 310hp engine. We've only worked with the later program, which is a part #6999 which has better idle control and a few other features. The files we have do not just switch over, you have to manually switch all the info by setting two computers next to eachother and enter each number one by one. I flat did not have time to sit there in front of the computers and just switch them back and forth so I took a brand new #6999 computer, made the mods I felt were best for your engine and shipped it. It was my mistake for the code 51, I should've caught it on the way out. I didn't and I shipped it back to you sat. delivery.

Were doing our best, but as we stated previously, this was not a true "bolt-on" system like we normally sale. We were very clear about that from the beginning. This stuff is not as simple as one may think, every change or mod has some effect on some parameter. Since we are treating this system as a custom kit, we would normally charge for the extra work that we have to do to try and make it work but there have been no charges of any type.

I'm not sure why you didn't get the right bolts, that's all very standard, that certainly should've been provided with the system.

I hope this clears some things up.

Thanks and sorry for the problems,
Dustin

When you say the kit is a custom job i think that is just a bit misleading. If the L-29 heads are such an issue than why do you even offer a specific kit for that engine? All I did was follow your advice and swap over to the GenV heads which actually have a slightly lower compression than the L-29 heads that came on that engine. Now that I did the recomended swap that makes it a custom kit? You yourself told me not to install the kit on an engine that had the L-29 heads even though the kit was for that engine. Nothing else on the engine deviates from the kit in any form. If anything these new heads would allow maybe 2 degrees more timing to be used over the L-29. I understand why the L-29 heads could be problematic and you also explained this to me. You also stated that the changes in the heads wouldnt affect the kit but give me room to add more timing while eliminating the "hot spot" in the combustion chamber. I understand the fine tuning with these heads will be slightly different than what you have done in the past but if you programmed the ECU with the map for this engine utilizing L-29 heads I will at worst be undertuned. For whatever reason this computer is causing issues in the programming stages. Specifically the startup mode and idle mode. These areas shouldnt be issues no matter what the heads are. The engine ran in its "limp mode" while throwing the code 51 but without changing anything but the programming the engine fails to even start now. When I talked to you this morning about the problem you advised me to raise base fuel pressure higher than 55psi to test for a lean startup. I tried that(went all the way to 100 psi) and it failed to make any difference. The ECU is now in the mail once again, on its way back to you. I understand that sometimes these things can have gremlins, and like I said earlier the main components of this kit are excellently made and fit perfectly. But I would think that the startup/idle program would not be the issue.
Tim is still waiting to hear from you about this, he is as anxious as I am to work this out.

I will also like to add somthing else. Having talked to many people about marine efi supercharger kits and being part of the install of several, Whipple is one of the simplest to install. And from those with experience have told me the Whipple kits are virtually trouble free down the road. That is why I chose to put a Whipple on my boat. Even now I would hate to see somthing else on my engine besides this kit. The kit does not appear to be an add on and is beautiful to look at. It is really a high quality piece.

I hope the ECU issues get resolved shortly so I can give a follow up on just how well it performed on the water.

NineLives hang in there.:)
I'm in the middle of an install also and have issues with the ECU programing. Mine would at least run, however it is so lean the plugs still look new. I wanted to hit the throttle so bad, but I knew I would just blow the thing up. I know what you are feeling, pretty frustrating. I sent mine yesterday overnight to Dustin. Hopefully he can get it richened up so my plugs will be brown. It is going to run great, we just have to be patient.
Maybe Dustin can get us both going for the weekend:D :D and it will all be worth it.
BE COOL!

Custom work
 

I have to agree with Cattitude, that any major upgrade is best left to the winter. That said, I will attest that Whipple is by far the best hi performance company I have ever delt with from customer service and satisfaction standpoint. It took some finese to make mine work as well, but Whipple did make it work and I am very satisfied. Remember, every environment is so dramatically different, heat, humidity, weight, air flow, etc. are all factors that will effect the calibration. If you want 150% more horsepower you need to be patient.

Ninelives, Just a thought, but did you check your plugs after the initial run? You may have fouled them so bad that they will not fire at all now.

There was no initial run. The boat has not been able to start at all since the last ECU fix. The first ECU program would allow the boat to barely idle for several seconds then die while coughing black smoke the whole time. But yes we did check the plugs each time.

I would like to be very, very clear, I never recommended a head, I stated that if you want the kit, I strongly suggest changing the heads because it won't live any other way, but I have never done calibration work for that stock motor with different heads. I never once said, "hey why don't you put those peanut port heads on."

I was asked a few times which head I recommend, I suggested the Dart Pro One heads. I don't think telling you up front that those heads and supercharger do not make a good mix as a major sales push. I will not allow one of these systems to go out the door for a motor with stock heads, it's just too dangerous and I'm not into selling problems for fellow boaters. We originally designed the system but as time past on, we felt very concerned regarding that engine and heads. It simply cannot pass our standards for many reasons. I was asked whether the peanut port heads would be ok, I clearly said that they would certainly be better than the L29 head for detonation but the programming would be different, the L29 heads are Vortec style, a complete different design, different air speeds, different VE, totally different. We don't know, those heads may flow less air which would increase manifold pressure, maybe they'll flow more and you'll have less manifold pressure? I have some assumptions, but I don't know for sure.

I leaned out the low end and crank fuel because I know the 310 cal is rich in this area and so I tried to make improvements. If you want your system to work the best, your better off flying somebody out there to calibrate the computer on the boat with the proper equipment, this is the only true way to "dial-in" your boat. Now on typical installations, with stock motors, this is not a problem, 500HP's, 454/502 Mags, 6.2MPI, etc. The 454/502 mags and 500HP's don't need as much cal work with changes such as heads or cam because the designs are far more similar than Vortec style vs. non Vortec heads.

Thanks,
Dustin

You told me you would be able to program the ECU "close" to where it should be. And you told me that I would probably be able to fine tune it for a hair more power later on. I am not even asking for any fine tuning here, just a base program that will run this engine within reasonable safety. As for putting a Mag head or some Dart head on my boat, those heads would have really made a significant airflow change but STILL wouldnt have affected the boat starting. A Mag head is nothing like a L-29 combustion chamber, or airflow. The mag head allows for the use of a dome-top piston therefore if I used those heads on my engine i would have lost a significant amount of compression. The Mag head also uses a square intake port unlike the L-29s large oval. That would have cause tuning problems throughout the RPM range. Changing a cam? That would definately be more complicated than what I have done as far as tuning is concerned.

I used the GenV head which has virtually identical airflow characteristics, only 8-10cc combustion chamber differences, and when used with a flat top piston I only lose 0.6:1 compression ratio. When using in conjunction with forced induction these differences have minimal effects on tuning. In fact these changes only allow for 2 more degrees of total timing. So if you would use the program that you know works for an L-29 equipped engine I will run as I should but not having the detonation issues caused by the widows peak in the L-29 combustion chamber.

So here is an idea, when you reprogram the ECU this time just forget that I changed my heads. Program the ECU for a Whipple supercharger on a GenVI block using the L-29 heads, otherwise known as a 7.4 MPI. Thats what the kit was intended for and you say you know how to program it for that combination right?

Ninelives, you may want to just fly someone out to program the compuert as Dustin suggested. That is what I had to do. I have the same motor you have. I switched my L29 heads out for some oval port, casr iron, closed chamber heads from a 1969 396. The intake ports are about 1.5 times larger than the L29. I know what you are going thruogh. I went through the same mess with sending back computers multiple times. I wish I would have done it different because it would have saved me alot of money and frustration in the long run.
One more thing, if the computer is programmed on the water you will at least have peace of mind knowing that it is right and not a guess or generic program.

9Lives:

Man, I feel for 'ya. Hang in there... the only "good" thing I can say is that you are not alone in being boatless. Misery loves company, so feel free to e-mail me if you'd like.

It seems a reocurring theme with cars and boats -> K.I.S.S. - Keep It Stock Sh*thead (this is not directed at you in any way). The only motorsport I have been into where aftermarket mods have seem to be painless and highly reliable is motorcycles (Jap bikes, to be specific).

a rambling:

Was into hotrods 10 years ago.... bought all the "good stuff"..... In one season, motor needed teardown twice - they finally realized that they had used something wrong in the valve train - this piece was breaking off, and getting past the screen in the oil pump p/u, but too big to fit through the pump's gears. This motor was made by a large, reputable performance machine shop, who was featured several times in Hot Rod magazine.

I had a 454BBC bored over 0.030", rather mild - 500hp/tq. I loved bangin' the gears, so I spent a ton on a Richmond (Doug Nash) 5 speed, instead of going with the Turbo 400 auto. I aligned the center of the (blowproof) bellhousing to within 0.005" of the crank centerline (back in the days when we could do *real* "government jobs" in our machine shop - LOL). That damn tranny came out no less than 3 times in one season! Twice I sent it to Richmond for them to fix (free, except for shipping), the last time I took it apart myself and replaced a "bad" bearing. The time I took it apart and fixed it, it lasted the longest - and this was the first time I'd ever cracked a tranny open.

I ended up selling the car a year later, for 50% of what I had into it (I still had the original motor, but it was a 2bbl 350 lo-po). After 1.5 years on that "restification" project, from the (sub) frame off, I thought I'd be sad to see it go. But it was one of the happiest days of my life - so much less to worry about!

The project turned out "looking" great................ but what a f'ing pain in the ass it was turning wrenches all the time.

I guess for some, it just takes longer to learn from their mistakes. I have a 7.4MPI......... I WAS thinking about just Whipple Charging it, instead of going with a non-stock motor.... I just heard too many people telling me NOT to put a blower on that motor. I said it before in another thread - spend as much money as you can on stock hi-po, and as little as possible on aftermarket hi-po. I understand that there are many satisfied Whipple customers, but as a whole, you can't beat stock for reliability and peace of mind. :rolleyes:

GREAT NEWS!!! ECU arrived this morning and the boat fired right up! Threw a TPS code but i was able to adjust the sensor to within range. No other codes or problems so far. Boat seems to idle well and goes through the RPM band smoothly. I'm taking it to the lake so i can get a real water test on it. Crossing my fingers and hoping all goes well. Looks like Dustin came through, Thanks!

Keep us posted of your progress! :cool:

its always nice to have a happy ending:D

:D

Just got back from water testing the boat. Runs a tad rich under 1200 rpm but doesnt smell rich so i doubt its too bad. It seems to foul the plugs if I idle for too long but cleans up as soon as it hits 1500 rpm. No major problems so far.

Only setback was my propeller. I have the lab finished 24p bravo which is what I had been using on the stock engine. That prop gave me about 60 mph on the gps most of the time. I had a nice 28p 3 blade prop to test on the boat but it wouldnt get on a plane before it blew out. At first I thought I broke the gimbal or somthing major but with my passenger watching the water you could actually see the aeration happen just as the boat nosed down. Very frustrating to me considering the prop had just come off a boat that made an 80mph pass with no trouble. I think it is the step in my hull causing a disagreement with a three blade prop. I will get a 4 blade on monday.

So just for this weekend I will be motoring around on the 24p bravo. So far the boat is 5 mph faster per RPM than it was the last time it was on the water. I am only using 37% throttle at max and hitting over 65 Mph at just about 4400 Rpm. Really doesent make much sense that I can go faster at the same Rpm with the same prop but I really am. Last time out with the stock engine and less than 1/2 tank of fuel I was at 60 Mph at 4600 trimmed out and using all the throttle I had. I was running a full tank of gas and tools today. Barely got into any boost, no detonation as of yet but I dont have a usable prop big enough to really load this thing down. I do know that this thing has a lot more to go. It was just starting to really get going at 65 Mph but I had to keep outta it for redlines sake. So far so good.

The Whipple is dead quiet with the hatch down, hatch up and you have to know what to listen for to really hear it.

I am happy that everything seems to be working out now. Really puts a smile on my face.

NineLives: Glad it seems to be working out for you. I have a Velocity 280 with a Whipplecharged 502 Mag and am extremely pleased. I have about 70 hours on the Whipple without a problem and it runs great. I gained about 15mph.

Forget about 3 bladed props and full throttle starts. All you'll do is break the prop loose. You have too much torque now. I use a Bravo 1 30" and come out at about 2800rpm and it pops right up. That's also a lot easier on your outdrive.

Good luck and have fun ...

I would guess that the MPH increase at the same rpm would be because with the additional power you are able to use less trim, therefore the prop is more efficent.

That's my guess anyway

I dont hardly give it any throttle. Using the three blade it just always breaks loose at 3000rpm. Just when the boat starts to plane out. Yea I know three blades and step hulls + torque = no good but its what I had to try out today. I have access to a four blade but a friend is borrowing it on his boat and he is in Savannah right now. I didnt think I would be on the water so I let him take it for the weekend. The 24p isnt that bad for just boating around and it beats sitting on the shore.

Ninelives,

Happy to hear you are up and running now. I had a Whipple installed a few weeks ago and I couldn't be happier. Not one problem so far except that it takes a few more cranks to start when it's cold. The engine runs as smooth as ever(500EFI) but has a ton more power when you get into it. I was lucky, Dustin recommended a former employee, Bernie, at Lake Havasu, to do the install. He did, and brought his computer on board for the initial run. He did some minor timing and fuel adjustments and we were done. Runs perfectly.

Hope you have the same success I had. It's a great setup and has an awesome sound when you hammer it.

Good luck,

Tom

hey nine lives,would you say that the whipple is easier to install than a centrifugal blower?just wondering cause i had a procharger before on a stang and did not need any ecu mod.also what size boat do you have?

thanks for the reply

where can bernie be contacted in havasu??

thanks

gm

Bernie's phone number is 928-4534799. He is the best. His personal ride is an Awesome Cat twin engine, Whippleized, 125mph monster.
Good luck-

Tom

Re: Whipple problems
 

thanks

gm

Re: Whipple problems
 

Having supercharged more merc motors than I can count, I can assure anyone that the only way to have good, reliable performance is to use stand alone, aftermarket engine management systems. (ECU`S) There are several available that are quite good but must be installed by a QUALIFIED tech experienced in fuel and ignition mapping.

Re: Whipple problems
 

gmnhra,

I see you are in Orange Co. Likewise, in Villa Park. You?

Re: Whipple problems
 

WildThing, I helped a buddy install a Whipple on his 25ft Eliminator last year with a 496ho and I runs flawless. The ecu was right on after we sent it in to Dustin. I wouldn't hesitate to add one on a 496ho again.