bugs need to be worked out Some general questions???
 

Okay,
So now my tub floats and runs okay but I am encountering a few minor problems which I expected this early on.

While under load one of the engines randomly coughs and backfires out the carb about 1200-1400 rpm's
you get her moving above that she runs great, solid no problems and sounds mean as hell.

I have the stocker rochesters on there and a friend of mine was playing with the set screws for the fuel delivery
His method was turn all the way in, then back out one and a half turns.
both carbs were set to same so if one is okay Im not 100% sure but the other should be same or damn close to first one.
I ran the boat for a few hours yesterday and did not exceed 3800 rpm's and 90% of the trip was around 3100
she ran GREAT
No problems no issues no nothing
just all out had alot of fun and the wife had a GREAT time!!!! (big important thing there)
Now I have this tuning problem and Im at a loss.
It does not pop out of the carb when in neutral just under load.
I was thinking about changine out the rapid fire ac delco plugs with standard copper NGK plugs
Im not a fan of any weird v or rapid fire or platinum or anything whoptee like that
Gimme stock NGK's and or Champion's and im a happy camper
Reason I got these over priced pieces of crap is cause poop boys had 20 of them (oh yeah they break real freakin easy too for 5 bucks a plug they should last 15 years)
Toilets!!!
Im NOT getting a flame backfire just a woooshhh or a loud PUFF if you will
I have a new distributor cap, new wires, new rotor, plugs are as stated above
Engine rpm's between about 12-1300 to about 1500 or so is when it does this
when I was out of the sea wall from the marina and started pushing a little bit, bow came up and I heard it PUFF then ran for about 10 second or so and then PUFF PUFF then ran okay for about 10 seconds and puff again
then I laid into it a hair more to about 1900 -2000 and it was gone, fine??? Weird (oh as a side note, friend wire tied spark plug wires together and I dont like that.

Second problem
Same engine that puffs when you start it up oil PSI is about 55 or so
after running her for about 20-25 minutes it is down to about 20
Now I KNOW that is weird
other engine after oil is hot, turns about 40 psi
should I have anything to worry about or is a 12-13 year old gague just being a douche?
oh and Fuel gague decided to crap out on me yesterday too so Ill have to start messing with that now too
Any thoughts or advice to these issues (not problems now ISSUES)
thanks fella's

Jason

First off good deal getting the wife out on the baot. I am sure that was a big help in getting her to like all the effort some. This is what I would do. I would swap the carbs. Second if you did not modify your Q-jets to acomodate the new engine set ups you are asking for trouble. One thing that I know is that Q-jets are VERY good carbs however they are VERY engine specific. You can not just take one off a 330 and drop it on a 365 Mag motor. You said you guys are thinking that you are running in the high 400hp range!!! That is WAY to much for the carbs that are set up for a 330hp motor. Your pop I would guess is a lean out at that RPM. If you want you can swap carbs motor to motor and see if the problem swaps engines. I personally would go for a set of Holleys or Edelbrocks if you are running that much power or find some one REAL good at setting up the Q-jets.

Jon

Hey Jon,
Yeah she was smiling from ear to ear when going over some waves and she was yelling woohoo and all that
Then she saw the outerlimits fly by when eating lunch at a pull up restruant and she was like wow this is just cool.
Thats what I have been talking about baby face!!!
I think it is time to call the engine builder back and ask him about the carbs and what to do and or what he thinks?
Keep him involved and keep that warranty paper in my hands LOL
Oil pressure?
starts 55-60 psi and after hot drops to 20?
Is that like RED FLAG low or is that somewhat okay?
I know when my Trans Am gets super hot hot, oil psi drops to about 30 or so on those 100 degree days and your sittin on black asphalt in a black car stuck in traffic and fans have not shut off in 15-20 minutes and temp is spiked to 220
Oil is brand new castrol 10W40 and just put oil in saturday afternoon. Thermal breakdown does not happen in 30 minutes running at 140 degrees

Any ideas?

Jason

Personally I like straite 40 wt oil. Is your cooler plumbed correctly? You can swap senders and guages or just toss a mechanical guage in there if you want to test that way. You could be heating up the oil. Oil temp guages are a great idea. I assume that your 20 pounds is at idle? I have been told by lots fo people that anything over 10 pounds per 1000 RPM is ok.

Jon

No the 20 PSI is running about 3100 RPM's
at idle it is same after hot
when first fired up she has about 50-55 psi
then after it heats up, she drops to 20 while under way (slowly works its way down)
Cooler is plumed correctly, and got 2 new oil coolers when rebuilt so to prevent any future BS down the road.
so you like 40W
I thought about dumping in 20W50 but thought that might be too thick cause she runs about 145-160 temps all day long (so far is what I have seen) so I figured oil would be too thick if I used 20W50 but that will increase the oil PSI im pretty sure
Jason

20 is low at 3100. Sometimes after a hard run, 5-10 min wot, you will drop to 20-30 at idle and recover back to say 40 at idle after 5 min when the oil cools but even in this condition preasure will usually be 40 @ 2000rpm it will only drop to 30 or below at idle. at 3100 should be 40 like the other engine imo. 10w40 is maybe a little light, 20w50 or straight 40 probably a better choice but this is not likely the cause.

what are the possible causes?
Bad oil pump?
Water in the oil?
bad oil filter?
something clogging up somewhere maybe?
these things are brand new and last thing I need to do is pull a motor cause of a bad oil pump
Jason

get your engine builder dude involved...have him dial this thing in...or he WILL blame you for washing down the cylinders or something to that extent..as for "castrol 10W40 "...WOW cams hate this ****...get it out of there...if the syn's are too much then just use a 40w race valvaline oil....watch your plugs...it has a higher zinc content in it. VERY cool the wife is a happy camper!

ps...oil pressure and flow are not the same!

I thought all that 40W and 20W50 would be way too thick since this thing does not heat up that much
I have never had a problem with castrol before
I do run Mobil one in the trans am though religiously (hell aluminum block and everything)
but I figured castrol was good stuff.
I thought that the synthetics in these were not a great idea from mercury?
So bump to 40W straight?
That is thicker than 20W50
You sure a oil pump off a regular motor can handle that ?
Awful thick stuff
Jason

There may or may not be better oils to run depends alot on opinion, merc recos 40 wt straight or 25w40 or 30wt straight if you boat in cold water like lake superior. Oil type weight is not the problem tho imo. If I remember right you are still running your old props which are probably light on pitch and so @3100 this engine should not be breaking a sweat even and oil preasure should be up there 40 or 50. You may wanna look at some of the oil type, syn vs dino oil brand threads etc and take what you will from them, everyone has a favourite oil and reason why, but this is probably not reason why your seeing 20psi at 3100.

you get 50 psi at start so pump is prob ok
did it repeat, in other words did preasure return to 40/50 after idleing back to dock or shut/cool down
preasure slowly going down is usually heat or a filter slowly clogging up.

get the builder involved for reason in prev post, he can't blame you.

p.s. the reason for oils like 10-40 is for autos that have to start in temps like 0-20 degrees, boat engines seldom see less than 60-70 degrees and so straight 40 is mercs 1st recomendation 25W40 there #2 choice

Okay
After engines cooled down a bit yes the oil PSI went back up
docked, ate lunch and got back on fired up and back to 50 again
after running for about 10 minutes it was back to 20 again
New oil filter, new oil cooler, new sea water pump and new engine.
So my gut reaction was oil pump was okay as well but still nerve wracking none the less while your out there and underway.
I cant think that parts would fail right out of the box but with this whole project, Nothing will suprise me especially if you have been following this whole thing from square one.
Im getting pretty good water flow through engine cause my top riser to tstat housing hoses are clear and you can see the water flowing to the riser pretty well.
Now on that engine I have the newer style riser so I had to relocate the oil filter
Right now it sits off of one bolt on the riser on the side where the starboard engines oil filter sits bolted to the stringer in front of the alternator
The one where the oil filter goes to riser (port) is having the low oil pressure problem.
Any other suggestions?
Gravity too much for oil to get up there?
Lines are not kinked or tweaked but do go UP sharply to oil filter since it sits back further than it used to and lines are bent more and not straight
Possible?
Jason

kinked line , maybe, use metal fittings/tube for 90 deg bends where possible
gravity, no

to me the flag here is heat because it gets better when cools down, would be good if you knew the oil temps but find the problem, detonation, lean, etc before its a bigger problem don't experiment to may of those hot 20 min runs and problem will find you. @ 3100 the engine/oil should kewl unless your running a 30P 20"dia prop ( loading the krap out of it) which your not

Right now i still have the stocker 21 P props on there
Friend just told me that the engine may be loading up and to back out the 2 set screws air/fuel another half turn and see how that does with the PUFF out the carbs
Ill try that next weekend.
Oh man it just felt so good to finally get this thing out there.
Wife had a great time and want to keep getting her to have a great time.
She said to me last night, to sell this thing and buy BumpinUglies 33 fountain
She is in love with that thing
Jason

visc. and pour rate are TWO different things! the 20w-50. 20w means it's a 20 weight in the winter. 50 under normal conditions. additives do this...pour rate is something else...yes losts opinions out there...6 years ago we ran a 250k oil study using the current products out there....there are some new ones now that we did not test....remember lots of oil company stickers out there...few production facilities :rolleyes: i personally blend my oil for the application....good luck boys and girls.


O...did ya now???...most wear at start up is not from lack of oil:eek: ....it's from a huge tpm delta in cumbustion chamber and also the exhaust header...

what oil tmps are you running????

Dont have an oil temp gague
Just oil PSI and engine temp (145-160 degrees)
Jason

BAD idea dude! get one like yesterday. you may have too much valve spring for that application???how knows? i didn't build it. valve springs generate ASS loads of heat! HP is not free! ...your h2o will stay the same when your oil tpms could be going off the charts?? again who knows....again you need more data.

" 20w means it's a 20 weight in the winter"

no 20W means it has the viscosity of a thin 20 weight oil at 100 degrees the 50 means it doesn't thin out to more than the viscosity of a 50 weight oi at 200 degrees. This is oil temp in the engine does not matter if snow is on ground or if its 100 degrees and humid out.

Reason to use a multigrade like 5W30 in winter is so that the oil is as thin as a 5 grade @ 100 degress, a straight weight 30 or 40 is like fudge at 0 degrees F

for the record I have used the following oils and between idle and say 3500 rpm I see little dif in oil preasure and temp, at wot 5200 the 50 weight multi's run about 3-4 psi more and 5-10 degrees cooler but under light/medium loads very little difference even with choclate milk

Merc 25W40
Quaker State 20W50
Mobil 1 15W50
Shell Racing 20W50
Valvoline 10W40
Valvoline 40 straight weight

Chocolate milk ( a nice mix of 1 gallon of water and 7-8 quarts of merc 25W40) oil preasure was still just fine with this stuff

Store brand no name 10W40 ( the really cheap stuff used to flush out chocolate milk during the refill run 1 min drain and repeat process)

So okay if I get straight 40 weight oil and drain out the castrol 10W40 and fill it up with the straight 40 and it does the same thing? Then what?
Or just being like syrup it wont do it?
Man this thing is driving me crazy but yesterday made it all worth the pain and headaches and backaches and busted knuckles and tool tossing that I have gone through.
That fountain is looking more yummy by the minute
Jason

We are getting side tracked as always happens on this board as soon as somone starts an oil discussion.

back to original topic, 20psi @ 3100 is to low especially if its not after a hard WOT run, get the engine builder invloved, at least ask him what he wants you to try.

different oils will deal tmps differently....do you have an increased oil tpm??? you need that gauge! my guess is you are well into the 200 deg. (PLUS) range... and you have not been past 3800!!...you may have some major issues my friend??? it's all about the DATA.


PS....from the SAE:........

"Oils that fall into a certain range are designated 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 by the S.A.E. The W means the oil meets specifications for viscosity at 0 F and is therefore suitable for Winter use."

remember i just work here!

lets talk about Viscosity Index shall we???....not!...go get oil tmp gagues dude

Jason, Check the bottom bushing in the distributors. My 502 ran ok but it was so shot there should have been a problem. Second undo those wire ties!! use wire separators. I've fixed 3 motors that had the wires bundled and thats all it took! Hopefully thats all the problem you have. greg

oops...almost forgot...never use syn's to B/I an engine...should use multi's for B/I...

ps...for the record i have done engine oil testing with different water volumes...now there!:D ...top that LOL

remember...i get paid to break other people ****...oops i mean test:rolleyes:

yes different oils will deal tmps differently but imo engine is not dropping to 20 psi under a light load 3100rpm with light pitch 21P props because of the oil weight/brand. 5W30 quickie mart brand oil should give 40psi under these conditions l unless its gettin too hot. Knowing the Temp would be a very good thing but I would be getting builder in loop so he doesn't say sorry you broke it your proband checking for some of the major things like detonation , lean 1st before I experimented a lot getting it hot trying different things


PS and ... Yes the W stands for suitable for Winter use but the specification is the viscousity at two particular temperatures , has nada to do with the season, the fact that it has the viscousity of a light oil, 5W, at low temps is what makes it suitable. The 20W50 Oil does not look at the calander and say gee its winter I will be a 20 Weight today it is simply a 20 weight oil at 100 degrees and does not thin to more than a 50 weight oil at 200 degrees thats the spec ,,, also From the SAE

"for the record i have done engine oil testing with different water volumes"

What was the PSI at 3100 for 10% 20% 30% water etc :D:D:D

dude...don't get me started...:eek: ...i didn't want to get involved in explaining the #'s...just "W" stood for winter and not weight...notice it's SAE 50 and not 50W??

actually you would be VERY surprised at some of this testing...U KNOW the windage was low!LOL

OKay spoke to engine builder
He wants to first put a mechanical oil pressure gauge on the engine to see if that reading on the dash is correct or not.
I also told him about the carb and he wants to set the carbs up via Vacuume gauge
I said there is no vacuume on it, he said rochester, I said yeah, he said we will get it, there is vacuume on it.
I said OKAY
Your the boss
Ill watch hows that?
I did not get mad or anything I just figured at this point, these little quirky problems he can deal with, customer service,
I was pleased though yesterday at how it ran, she ran nice, even (besides when I got airborne one time from a damn yacht wake doing about 35-40 MPH LOL)
came down smooth though
ripped throttles back real fast too, did not want to over rev it or bust a prop shaft on reentry
she tracked a little off (Tie bar adjustment I believe)
All in all im a happy camper and so is the wife
Jason

Jason what way did you run on the river north or south, I thing I saw you on sunday, just north of Tacony/pal bridge, if it was you I sounds sweet.
Tom (MissMyMoney)

I went south from Neshaminy
Drove down to Dave and Busters
Ate lunch at Kat Man Du
then came back north to Neshaminy and back on trailer and went home.
I made a 1.10 meg wav file if anyone wants it?
Also made a 40 meg movie of me getting it off the trailer
Damn I need to build a web server LOL
Tom, what were you in?
Boat is a 280 baja sport with hooker barbie pink and gray stripe down the side
boat has a white arch
4 of us on board yesterday
Jason

Must be another 280 out there, this was around 4:00 sunday it looked all white but I was in a cove (Dredge Harbor) with out my glasses on. I run a 21 Formula (bule) MissMyMoney.
Well I hope you get the last few bugs worked out and enjoy the rest of the summer.
Tom

My boat is mostly white but the arch tells it apart from most of the others
I saw a big blue Cig outside of Dredge just sort of floating around but man that thing looked schweet
Older but bad ass none the less
I think that one is supercharged
Did you happen to see that outerlimits blast by earlier in the day?
that one is up at Trenton I think
Blue with yellow and some orange and a big black checked flag down center of the sides?
Man we heard that thing coming and did not see it until he was right under the ben franklin bridge and he was hauling ass
(were at KatManDu eating at that point)
4 pm sounds about right for us to be heading north past dredge harbor area
Maybe it was me dunno
but yeah my biznatch is LOUD
You can hear me coming from really far away
Jason

Jason it may have been you that we saw. It was loud!!!!
The cig is supercharged and sounds sweet, that was the 1st time I have seen it.
Tom
We will be out all week, the wife is off this week and wants more time on the boat, we should be somewhere between philly and trenton every night this week. let us know if you will be out and we will look for you. also fireworks this saturday in burlington.
Tom

You are getting a load of good advise here Jay13... excessive oil heat I think is your problem. I blew one on memorial day that was acting just like you describe.... sept I have oil temp gauges and the one that blew was hitting 300-320 after a hard run!!!! 250-270 cruising. You open your motor up much and you may end up with a match to the one on a pallet in my garage.

I like the valve spring idea. That may have been my problem cause I had high pro alum eledbrock heads on that I didn't spec. Broke my spring compressor trying to remove valves over winter. The end result of my $5k distaster was exhaust valve head on #1 decided to part ways with the stem and you know what that does. Mind you, this was a "new" motor with less than 20hrs. Howdya like that in your future? I can tell you from experience it sucks!!!

Other thoughts are extremly lean condition... whats the color of the plugs?, do you still have a windage tray?, water sepage in from the exhaust causing detonation. Water infiltration fromthe exhaust is what I've been thinking caused my grenade until Audacity mentioned the valve springs. If I were you, I wouldn't do **** without the engine builder on board until you figure this out!! I'd also spend $50 for an oil temp guage/sender.

As my grandpa always said.. "A word to the wise is sufficient".

BT :cool:

Jay,

See about 3/4 down on this old post about oil temps. You can build a temp gauge for 13 bucks and swap it between your two remote filter adapters. Just remove the hex head plug in the remote adpater and do as I outlined in the thread.
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forum/sh...hlight=walmart

Good luck, shoot the little ones before they get big.

Tim T.

Jay

Did you do anything to the q-jets before putting them on or are they still in stock 330 hp form ?

Bo

Plug reads are very tricky when you are using fuel that does not contain lead.

i DON'T have a ton of confidence in this engine builder...he put the engine part together and that's it!!...how are you going to dial in a cam, double check the cam was ground correct, set and check lash....on and on....and have coil bind and bend the damn push rods....KEEP AN EYE on this guy and document everything...you let him tell YOU what oil to run, at what level, and what oil change interval!...sorry dude i just see a bad ending to this story.... i would love nothing more than this engine to go 400+ hours for ya!!!

Okay Yeah Jersey Devil, Yes then that was probably me, My exhaust is dry so she is LOUD
She is REALLY LOUD
I wanted her to sound like that outerlimits or that blue Cig that went ripping by.
Wanted everyone in PA and NJ to hear me coming miles away HEHEHEHE
So I think I have succeded in that arena no doubt but it sucks cause I want to hear from a shore line what my boat sounds winding up and ripping by (need someone to video tape me blasting the tower!!!)
Okay the rochester Qjets were not messed with that much
We threaded the set screws in the front of the carbs all the way in on both primaries and then backed them out 1 and a half turns which from what I was told is a good baseline to start at.
They might have to come out another half turn
As for the oil temp, I have no clue, I spoke to the engine builder and was told to swing by and pickup a hard mount oil pressure gague and screw it into the block, then he told me to go run it.
So in following instructions from builder, that is what I intend to do.
He wants me to also use a vaccume gauge to set the carbs up so Im going to do as im told from HIM
(he is warranting these things so I have little choice)
but yeah I wanna keep going out and stop having these little **** problems
Thanks guys
Jason

"He wants me to also use a vaccume gauge to set the carbs up".....F#$$ him....you burn a valve and or melt down a cylinder and it will all be on YOU....it's HIS WAY OUT if something goes a miss....

if this guy didn't dial in your cam how can he say that the signal falls into your carbs parameters???? HE CAN'T!

Jay I am regretably having to side with Audacity on this one bro!!! (no offense to you audacity just see this taking a nasty turn as well. :() Anyhow the first BAD thing to happen is the coil bind issue that you had. The guy was more interested in getting his new bike then helping out the customer that just dropped some serious money with him. So he put his lackey on it to fix the thing. Is this the same motor that had the problem? Second he did not tell you to get your carb modified. You WILL NOT be able to run your sock 330 carbs set up with just a change in your idle jet. NO WAY NO HOW. Q-jets are great carbs but have to be set up specifically to your engine or you will have problems. My guess is you are VERY lean. Lean is bad!!! Like Audacity said reading plugs is very hard to do accuratly with the new fuels. Now the guy is more interested in sending you down the road with some stuff and letting you make all the adjustments. That is BOGUS bro. I would get some **** in writing and fast from this guy that he is not going to send you up the river when something blows. I had this same problem as you do with my engine and through all the testing the thing blew up.

Jon