Not many. And imo really the way to go for running a water thermostat.

I do not run water stats, and have a crossover . I am pretty certain at all times I have more than enough water moving around and flowing thru the block and heads. When I had rear dumps on the intakes, I had gobs of flow coming from those as well as the stingers in my dry tails at idle with almost no water psi. At 4000rpm, the water dumping with 15-20psi out the dumps is huge. I've blown the hose off the sea pump going to the coolers before at speed. The 1.25 hose, transom mounted pickup, and merc raw water pump, can move some serious water. Filled the bilge with a ton of water in 30 seconds. Freaked me out !

As for ring gaps and thermal expansion, what do the oems figure in for thermal expansion? For example, in the northern states, starting a cold engine when it's -20* F, and then it warms up to 210*. Then you have some that have aluminum blocks as well as iron blocks. What are they running for ring gaps?

Also, has anyone ever compared the temp on the rear cylinders vs the front cykinders on a GM big block in a automotive application?

yes #7 & 8 are higher, but this could also be from poor air circulation around rear of engine in installations where the azz end of the engine is tight to the firewall...

hey Joe... (Mild Thunder) just because you have a ton of volume doesn't mean its cooling... the secret to cooling an engine is to allow the water to stay in the block long enough to transfer heat away from the cylinder... not tryin to be a dickhead here.. it just comes naturally lamo

Thank you Brian I was gonna go there next... circulating pumps...

sorry TomZ... I figured since you got your answer we'd keep pickin away at the cooling subject lol

Hmm. So how to I figure out the appropriate amount of time to keep water in my block for the proper water transfer heat transfer time period?

it has been proven that that is incorrect.it is true in a radiator taking heat out and transfering it to the air.the more cool water you can pass through the block the more heat will be transfered to that cooling water.i,m net being a dik either,just stating facts.

I have never seen an engine COME from the 3 I listed without a circulating pump. We did testing with crossovers using temp sensors on the blocks 20 years ago in real world conditions (out on the water in a boat). Shortly after I sent back all the crossover systems and have run circulating pumps on EVERYTHING I have built since. You would chit yourself if you did the same tests. There is a lot to be said about even engine temps not to mention it allows you to build a tighter tolerance engine that lasts longer. We are currently spending a ton designing a dry sump serpentine belt that uses a circulating pump for the engines we build. In the past we have altered the old Merc efi system to work but we are looking for something better.

I'll tell you this... a hot engine makes considerably more power than a cool one does!! its all about balance... the rear of my 1100s are as I stated earlier dribblers -6 hoses with a restrictor in them and front discharge hoses are -12 also with a restrictor in them... I won't post how HOT I run mine because I don't wanna put up with all the bullchit replies I'm gonna get!!! but what I will say is that back in my Funny Car days.. I wouldn't stage the car till the temp hit 290 to 300 Deg F... what's that tell yaw'll?
sit down! shut up! and hang on!!!

I thought this was finally debunked in an infinite cooling supply system. IE: open system.

The faster the water flows, the more it will cool.

Just like air temp, add in some wind and heat is removed quicker.

Thus us in the North really only care about the Wind Chill index vs the actual air temp index.
Fitting example right now being in the very NE.

Again, this is for open cooling systems. Not closed cooling.

Agreed!!! and I am also an advocate for closed cooling as that is hands down the best way to go for certain applications

900sc mercury

we need more temp in the engine, not less... so yes in your statement you'd be correct in open cooling, but in most High HP conditions dual stage and bigger pumps supply an infinite supply of water... thus making it difficult to achieve a desirable temp... so again balance is the key... holding water in block long enough to effectively cool and at same time maintain an optimal operating temp ... this is my point, otherwise water temps will be all over the map and not nearly consistent in all areas of the block and heads...

but really... what do I know, I'm just a silly crazy Canuck!! lol :7160:

Can you squeeze a p/s pump on that setup?

This engineer agrees with you. That's simply not how an open cooling loop (or infinitely large closed loop, but I digress) works.

That's correct, SB. A and Delta T are the primary considerations in heat transfer.

I was answering your present statement at the time, not the future one's.

Carry on.

Yes but its old school and could be cleaned up. We can currently get a system from the automotive world that will work but it uses 3 accessory belts plus the dry sump belt. We are working on a 2 belt system.

agreed.. Mike I kinda derailed myself here cause I was thinking about something I've encountered with mine... in that a 2 stage pump running all in and all out isn't making "MY" 1100s run hot enough, slowing the flow down with use of some restriction achieved this and also increased my system pressure as well...

My new engine has a crossover without a bypass. However, I'm not sure it will stay that way.

Brian could you elaborate on your testing? Did the crossovers you used have bypasses with thermostats, or were they just a crossover?

With unlimited cooling water routed through a single pass exchanger (block/heads/etc) and no control the engine will NOT be a uniform temp. It's simply the physics of heat transfer that the exiting water will be warmer than the entering water and the block's temp will vary in accordance. Now add in a thermostat, and it gets much better. I'm not convinced the thermostat temp really even matters, so long as it's a constant temp, all else can be allowed for.

how long does your engines last?

You are correct I forgot about that experiment.......good thing is they learned from it and did not repeat their mistake.

We all have our preferred ways of doing things. There are some extremely talented successful engine builders/riggers in this industry , some would agree and some would disagree with what has been posted here. I've seen engines roll out of Wesco racing, and many other high end builders shops without circulating pumps, without thermostats, that have absolutely kicked azz and lived long happy lives . I'm not just talking about on the dyno, that doesn't mean squat. I'm talking about holding the engines wfo for miles and miles. If I walked in wescos shop and started telling him

"Dave, your setup isn't allowing water to stay in the block long enough

Dave your cylinder to cylinder temps are uneven with this crossover setup here

Dave you need to get your block temps up to 200 degrees

dave you need to tighten up your ring gaps and bearing clearances "

He'd probably throw a hammer at me and tell me to get the f out. Lol

Poor TomZ. Hes building a basic 454 with a 250 blower. A setup that's been ran for decades . But, the poor guy is probably so confused right now he's prob ready to bolt a 330 merc engine in the boat and call it a day!

Quick story about Dave from wesco. He built a pair of 800s for my buddies Top Gun and rigged the boat. On the first time out, my buddy was driving . He cruised at like 3500 rpm. Finally dave instructs my buddy to open it up. My buddy does for a quick burst, then pulls back. Dave says "why are you pulling back?" Buddy says "Goin easy on them". Dave says "put those throttles down and I'll tell you when to let off". They were held wfo for a very long time out on lake michigan that day. After the fact, those engines never skipped a beat, and my buddy ran the snot out of them. They had no water stats, and no circulating pumps.

Is it the textbook perfect setup, no. Did they run great and stay tether for a long time, they sure did. And I prob know of at least 30-40 local marine blown big blocks in the Chicago area running that setup with no issues either.

just goes to show that opinions are like azzholes!! everyone has one!! :duel: lmao

I don't have a problem with the non-bling factor. Actually it's better cause there is no better feeling than blowing by someone in a $150,000 boat with a $10,000 boat and if the end up at the same destination and ask you what you have in that thing you can open the hatch and tell them a stock 454 with a little bit of cam.

MT I agree they will "work" "sort of" depends on your definition of work........ but that does not make it the proper thing to do.....making a system for dry sump is not cheap and adds a lot of cost to the build but its my name on the line so I do what I do.

I have nothing but respect for Dave and what he does, we are kind of brothers (good story about the first time we met) but we take different paths.

I had that very thing happen at 1000 Island PR,,motors were purple at the time,,guy swore I was lying.walk away shaking his head.I had cross over back then too,same as today.:Dalso on that run I made the owner of Bullet blow his engines up.came in from a test run and he asked how fast,,I said an easy 94mph w/ some left.went down to check boat after some parting and he was down changing pulleys on his engines.He didn't last to the first corner.
Fun time for sure.

there are a few ways to get to the same end result of being fast and reliable.

Good discussion fellas. 7 pages and no personal insults!

Back to a question I had earlier. What do the oems do for ring gaps in aluminum block engines that are subjected to -20 or even colder ambient temps? I'd imagine there has to be quite a bit of expansion going from -20 to 210*.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]537631[/ATTACH] closed cooling.

Want to do a reverse cooling with new cylinder heads.

My car runs 15 minutes every morning in the winter until it reaches operating temp when it's cold winter time. Then same on way home from work. Thats 30 minutes a day, for 60 days between oil changes, that the engine is ran without being warmed up to max operating temp. Hour wise, that's 30 hours. How in that 30 hours of COLD run time, does that engine not even consume a quart of oil, even with 142k miles on the engine? They are doing something right , just not sure what lol

I agree with you big AL, (even thou nobody else does around here ) Cold engine is no good. I`d like to build some heat but how is that going to be accomplished with no thermostat provisions, I haven`t figured that out yet.

Tighter fitting Hypercracking pistons with high ring locations. Electric fans and other mods to get coolant temp up not just high but quickly. Also oil coolers fed by coolant whicvh heats up faster than the oil.

the ring looks more like a slinky!!! and EVERYONE LOVES A SLINKY!!! :asskiss:

Thanks Danny... as I said I run both stages in... and it was a pain in the ballz makin any heat... but big HP engines need water volume... and my dilemma was 1 stage not enough and 2 stages too much so.. trial and error is the only way my friend.. there are so friggin many variables such as, pick up styles, angle of pick up, hose diameter, style of oil coolers used...and the list goes on and on...

for starters they're not trying to make 1000hp and make it climb a 75 degree incline for its entire life!!!

Nah, I'm good. And there's no way I'd throw a 330 into my beloved Formula!

There are a lot of opinions that's for sure! This isn't the first engine that I've built, though I have been just a little on the overly cautious side of things with this build. I want it to run well and produce some impressive power, and have it last. I've taken everyone's opinions into consideration, and come my own decision on what's appropriate, I will say that along with the opinions comes a lot of overthinking! I had to shut that side off a little... I found myself starting to go a little crazy from it!

Really enjoying this thread!

you had a funny car that was water cooled?

I don't think the heads had water jackets ?

if an engine makes more power with hot coolant i wonder why nhra pro stock engines run 100 deg f.maybe they don,t know what they are doing,those 500 cu in engines only make 1400 hp being n/a.