if that is the case i can,t see what that has to do with water temp!

And why they use engine chillers to cool the engines down before a pass. Not only in pro stock either.

apples and oranges
 

Has to only live for 6 seconds , 118 octane, 18:1 compression, rebuilt after every pass.. etc etc a little different than a marine motor.

They also run 0w oil.. just sayin

Oh no , you said oil.......:poopoo:

wish we still had the borg to set us straight on the oil thing,lol.

i have a wet sleeved hemi block.

rear ends they drain the oil out.

What about the most advanced and sophisticated 1000hp motors on the planet. They run for 24 hours at a time and don't even get started until everything is brought up to temp. These drivetrains make prostock look like a child's toy. All the fluid temps are closely monitored kept in check. Everyone involved with these endurance engine programs are extremely particular about keeping the fluids at the right temperature. If you tell them you are running 100 degree water temp I can guarantee you. You will be looked at like you have two heads. Even just a couple degrees in the wrong direction is thought to be sacrilegious.

We have a guy, Tomz, the original poster, who was looking for a ring gap recommendation. He is building a 454, with a B&M 250 Roots blower.

We have strayed so far from actually helping this guy, its ridiculous. Everyone wants to talk about efficiency. The whole thermal thing, get all scientific, and start throwing clearances of .00003 around, water flow characteristics , and all kinds of stuff.

We are on a quest, to build this guy a state of the art 454 with a carbureted 250 blower. One that will not have knock protection, ideal fuel distribution, and a slew of antiquated things going on. One that will likely see elevated air intake temperatures.

My supercharged 454's have been setup without water thermostats since 1999. The bores in 1999 were 4.280 when the superchargers were added. The bores in 2005 were 4.280 when freshened. The bores are now 468 after another freshen in 2011. These engines have actually had 3 different owners, and have never tuliped a valve, busted a lifter, cracked a head, broke a ring, melted a piston, or any of that.

As of last summer, with nearly 100 hours on them since last freshen, I logged 400 hard miles by water on them, on the same engine oil. During that 400 miles, they consumed NO OIL. They at most, blew a very tiny mist of oil out the breathers after a 60 mile run held between 4500-5700RPM with several wot full load periods for miles and miles on end. They have file fit plasma moly speed pro rings, gapped on the looser side of things, per recommendation for a supercharged gas engine from the ring/piston manufacturer.

I did not dream the idea of not running water stats up myself. They were setup that way when I got them in 2007. After talking to several successful marine engine builders, who build offshore engines, not drag race, sprint cup, or nhra engines, they told me not to worry about the water temps, and to keep doing whats been working. Its been done for many years, and worked. It is also how B&M, and weiand supplied the kits back then.

Not to say that their isnt a better setup to be run, but for my old school, antique roots blown carbureted engines, I am content with the setup, and also feel content to suggest to someone, its ok to run it as I have. Just my feedback from something I've done which i feel is relative to the OP's setup.

who said it was water cooled?

You are absolutely right,... But the journey is sometimes better than the destination and this has been a very interesting and informative thread. :coolcowboy:

I never mentioned you can't use crossovers, I am not looking to start a cyber war on the thermal stability of an engine and its effects on ring gap and I am not the 1 that brought engine temp into the mix. I just made some observations and tried to point out the mistakes made by many. I mentioned the problems we found with the use of crossovers 20+ years ago and why we including companies much smarter than us don't use them. Our engines with circulating pumps and 160 degree thermostats (another war about to brew) run consistent temps throughout the block when tested on the dyno and in a boat. With crossovers you can alter the systems to work better with restrictors, drilling the T-stat and dumping water out the back of the block but they are all just bandaids and will never give you the thermal stability. I think in todays world just about everybody that does any kind of engine work has a temp gun (back in the old days we had to use sensors and gauges). Next time you go out with your crossover cooled engines use it to check the temp differential between the front of the engine and the back,even side to side while idling out and then under load. If you have never done this than you are not qualified to even talk about the subject.....


I rarely give engine advice because its my business and have worked for nearly 40 years to gain the knowledge I have, so when I give it why would you come back time after time and disagree with it and try to justify your way when there is a better way???

Brian I never said there wasn't a better way.

Personally I don't care what the temp differences are. I care about what effect it has on the engines. I have shot my cylinder heads many times with an Infrared gun. I've also had the water temp sensors on both the front and rear of the intakes, at one time on a toggle switch. Flipping the switch I was able to read temp coming from rear of intake manifold as well as front of intake manifold.

TomZ was going to be running iron heads at nearly 9:1 static with a small supercharger on pump gas. On a setup like that, I would not be attempting to run 160 water temps coupled to hot humid air on a summer day on the crap gas we get today. Thats just me .

So, on my engines , can you tell me what I would stand to gain, from getting my water temps to 160 degrees? I'm honestly interested in learning what re rigging my setup with a merc setup thermostat housing (if I can locate and fab it to my intakes), and going back to a circulating pump setup.

well I agree with you Brian... Mercury uses a circulating pump on both the 1075 and the 1200 SCIs so what's that say... I was contemplating on a closed cooling system for mine, just not sure of how to make it work on my cat...

i think we got off track with the water temp thing.most marine engines will benifit from running a circ pump and maintaining a certian water temp.is it the right thing for all marine engines,of course not.would it be smart for a guy with a supercharged engine with iron heads and no innercooler making 7 to 9 lbs of boost to run 160 deg water in his cylinder heads,not unless this engine has a good efi system that puts a ton of xtra fuel in to cool the cylinders and a ignition system to pull timing out on the long wot runs.should i run a t stat with a circ pump with my 1200+ supercharged engine with 11 to 13 lbs boost,of course not.should the guy with a set of stock hp500s run a crossover and 110 deg water temp,of course not.to make a claim that every marine engine needs a circ pump is ones opinion just like someone saying no engine needs a circ pump is.different things are needed on different setups.now lets get to the wheel reinvention thread ,lol.

We`re just talking here Joe, I`m pretty sure Tom got his answer so why not discuss something that came up during this thread. You refer what works for you but because it works for you doesn`t mean it works for everyone or every combo.

I have a milkshake that forms at the top of my heads where the cold water exits the block. It got way better at LOTO where the water was warmer. Wonder if that would still be the case if the block had some heat in it.

http://33outlaw.zenfolio.com/img/s10...44665659-3.jpg


http://33outlaw.zenfolio.com/img/s10...90762399-3.jpg



If cold block is so great why doesn`t everyone run without a stat on the street/endurance/strip?

I wouldn`t mind at least figuring out a way to run the water thru the headers first then to the motor.

I believe that would be me, not "we", MT.

I based that direct answer on the OP's original question regarding his end gap selection of .028"-.032" being adequate. I advised him to open his gaps based upon the lowest water temp in the block (60º F) due to the fact those bores will have significantly less (temp) expansion than those at the rear of the block, as Brian correctly stated. I do not consider advising another OSO member to adjust his ring gaps, to compensate for abnormally low water temps on the front cylinders as "ridiculous". No matter how you want to shape the discussion, there is a very real possibility that not opening the gap could result in knocking a ring land off a piston.

I am all for healthy, respectful, technical exchanges, however many of these conversations seem to be driven more on anecdotal experiences and personal insults, than data driven information.

Bob

thermostat is really flow control,on the street you need the water/antifreeze to slow down going thru the radiator so it can tranfer to the fins.

dan,imo that is not from running to cold water temp,i would be looking for a leaking header or a head stud that has water running up the threads.i would also not recomend you running a water temp over 130 deg with your setup.you need to fight detonation and hot water in the iron cylinder heads may come back to bite you.just my opinion so do what you think is right.

So if I take the thermostat out of my car it will run too hot because the thermostat isn't there to slow it down through the rad?

I have seen that lots. Experimenting with restrictors should help, also making sure you're getting your oil temp up to at least 200-220 will help as well.

Restrictors where Alex? Mine's been doing this since day one, I have been thinking block temp too. Hoping new oil t stat helps. thx-

in your neck of the woods no thermostat and your going to be freezing but if you go to arazona to visit borgie you surely will overheat.

Some will get hot some will be cold.

On the outlet, or outlets, depending on how you're rigged. make sure your psi bypass valve is plumbed before your engine, and then restrict the outlets until you can maintain consistent temp.

Learn something new everyday..

We are comparing two entirely different scenarios.

On the engine that is starting cold at -20º F, and rising to say 180º,, the components will all rise uniformly relative to each other. The key is uniformly.Their initial and running tolerances are designed based upon the various material and their relative rate of expansion.

In the marine application, where you may experience, a 100º difference in running temp from front to rear cylinders, it's obvious you may want to rethink your initial clearances (ring end gap and piston to wall).

There is no editorializing on anyone's part on the way Tom, or anyone else for that matter chooses to configure the cooling system. Just data.

Bob

If you're running cmi's, the jumper hose to the tails works.

im pretty sure you already knew that!

different than a marine engine,yes but why do they do this?TO FIGHT DETONATION!that pro stock engine is run on the ragged edge from the hit of the throttle to the end of the run.

air charge temp!!

Mike you are absolutely correct... Prostock big compression etc etc etc... Detonation hazard even with the octane available in race fuels!!

and run a good radiator cap to bring the pressure up in the system,,it raises the boiling point of the antifreeze same w/ our engines,,get the pressure up or the back of cylinders heads will develope steam pockets.Steam w/ not registrar temp on a sensor.

Guys, lots of good information has been provided in this thread. Yes, it did go off topic a little, but for the most part it's all relative. It's quite obvious that we have some very smart people here on this forum.

I'm happy with the answers and advice I received regarding the ring gaps for my set up. I'm definitely headed in the right direction.

I'm also very interested in the discussion that has unfolded regarding temperature extremes within the block, and whether to use thermostats, restrictors, circulating pumps vs crossovers, etc. This is all relevant to me and my set up (though probably with a little more detail than most would care for... still good stuff imo), and it's given me a lot to think on.

Just to add... In the beginning of my project, I was planning to use the aftermarket iron heads that I have, but have since decided on going with aluminum. I did this for a number of reasons one of which was to combat any detonation issues that the iron heads would have brought about. I have also decided to go with a crossover mainly for the reason that I don't think I can find a thermostat housing that would work with the blower set up... I feel the crossover is a necessary evil in this case.

The above probably doesn't add much to the overall discussion... just giving a rather casual update as well as saying thanks to everyone that's participated (or read and gained some knowledge) in this thread.

I was thinking about this today some more after I stumbled upon some car water pumps I have here.

I am curious, this particular setup that had 100* higher water temps at the REAR of the block, compared to the front of the block, what size block, and what generation block was this? Is there any data to view on this topic?

I myself, have never witnessed water temperatures 100 degrees hotter water or coolant at the rear of the block, EXCEPT, when someone installed the incorrect head gasket on the block, with the front water passages opened on the gasket, when they should have been blocked, allowing water to flow right in from the water pump holes, right out the thermostat outlet. I've seen guys overheat, seize valves, not once, not twice, but 3 times, blamed it on cooling problems, when in fact, they had the incorrect head gasket on it all along. Was all too common on Gen 5 and 6 engines.

I am just trying to get data, and also, understand, how, a circulating pump, evens out the water temperature in the block, better than a crossover? I'm also not understanding how, my vehicle, warms up much more uniformly, than a boats engine, to operating temp?