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One last question. Of the 502/509" MPI variety builds using the MPI intake which heads did you have the most success with?
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Originally Posted by Panther
(Post 4405890)
I have said a few times now that I'm not looking to use something that I haven't seen results I can go to the bank with. I also said a few times they might be a good choice but I don't feel they're ideal for me for a few reasons. We can speculate all day about port design, flow characteristics, cross sections etc but until I see that it works for what I'm doing I am not going to recommend spending someone's money and rolling the dice. I don't mind innovation but I don't use my friends money for R&D. It's really that simple...
Discussing cross section and flow is not speculation. If a head has X amount of cross section and a given flow value, it is what it is and will be "right" for a given displacement and rpm. It's just numbers.I know that ideally, a 509 making peak power at 6500 needs a minimum cross section of about 2.7 sq in to maintain proper velocity in the port for good cylinder filling. Knowing what I do about cylinder heads, I'd "estimate" the cross section in the 320 head is near 3 sq. in. In my experience, that's a little large, but not excessively and will only hurt a little lower rpm tq which everyone says isn't a problem in these apps. Properly cammed you might not even see the difference from a smaller head. The EQ heads have a nice shape to the intake port and chamber which is a big factor. When you look at hundreds of cyl. heads a year like I do you learn to see things and use your experience and intuition. It's not speculation.It's what I do for a living. |
Originally Posted by Panther
(Post 4405900)
I've got an odd question. I don't believe I've ever seen it asked so here it goes.
Why haven't I ever seen a flow bench done with an intake manifold bolted up? Like in my case, you have a very small and long intake runner that could be potentially matched up to a large intake runner. When porting and flowing, would it be beneficisl to have the intake bolted up so it's a part of that equation? I'm not a head guy so I'm just curious?. |
Originally Posted by Panther
(Post 4405902)
One last question. Of the 502/509" MPI variety builds using the MPI intake which heads did you have the most success with?
I'd have to look at the MPI intake and take some measurements to give you my thoughts. The AFR's I did above are going on a 515 (4.53 bore x 4" stroke). |
Originally Posted by horsepower1
(Post 4405950)
Never built one with the MPI intake. My best hyd. roller pump gas 509 was with a set of ported AFR 305's and a ported victor Jr and 1000hp carb, made 770hp @ 6300 and 730 tq @ 4700. Car engine. My last 509 was the same...hyd roller, pump gas deal, Canfield 310's unported, Victor Jr unported, AED 850 dp, made 710 hp and 680 tq. Very basic engine.
I'd have to look at the MPI intake and take some measurements to give you my thoughts. The AFR's I did above are going on a 515 (4.53 bore x 4" stroke). He's pretty much set on keeping the EFI setup. I'd rather be building him a 600/650hp package with a carb or a different EFI setup all togheter but I'm working with what I have and want to select the best matched components to make the most of what we have. That's why I mentioned about speculation in my above post. I'm not saying it doesn't matter or not relevant, I just want to put this thing together with something that's proven. The EQ heads might be ok but I don't think this threads intention was to promote and sell EQ heads. I just want the most efficient proven package with cost in mind. |
By the way, my name is Frank Ungarten. I'm not sure who you are?
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Originally Posted by MILD THUNDER
(Post 4405866)
I think generalizing that a 320cc head wont work, but a 308cc will, without any further discussion of the port, is incorrect way to put a combo together. I also disagree that a static compression number, is a make or break of an engine combo, within reason. Ive seen 9:1 engines smoke 11:1 engines.
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Originally Posted by Panther
(Post 4405967)
If you have any specific experience or have put together a combination for an MPI based build, please share your results. Thanks in advance!
Testing like that, is what gives us data to change , or learn the effects of the design parameters, and there are many. Now, knowing that the edlebrock head has a 315cc runner, but isnt exactly a great flowing head. Now, my gut tells me you take those off, and stick a set of those heads horsepower 1 just posted hes working on, and with the right cam, i think it would outperform the other combo just about everywhere in the rpm band, not just above a certain rpm because of the 325cc runner volume. |
I've read a lot of those posts as well, some good data. Articfriends has a ton of time on MPI's and seems to be the most knowledgeable with it from a home grown perspective.
I'm focused on my specific build though and those with specific hands-on experience with my setup. Thanks anyway for the info. |
Originally Posted by Panther
(Post 4405963)
By the way, my name is Frank Ungarten. I'm not sure who you are?
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Originally Posted by horsepower1
(Post 4405836)
Too many generalizations and assumptions regarding port volume and head performance. Head performance comes form flow and velocity. They have to work together. The velocity factor comes form the minimum cross sectional area of the port and on a conventional BB Chevy head this area is usually just past the push rod "pinch". Mean flow numbers are what they are, and the smaller the cross section, the more velocity the port will have. Old school BB Chev heads like the OEM rectangle ports and older Brodix and Canfield heads that were designed after that have a lot of volume in the front of the port with large minimum cross sections ( big rectangle port) but have relatively small bowls. Then you can look at something like a Dart or AFR and you see the port is a lot smaller in the front with smaller minimum cross section and more of the volume is in the bowl, after the short turn. You can have three different 320cc cylinder heads and have three completely different velocity profiles and three completely different power potentials. I just finished a set of AFR 315's and did a 2.300 intake valve upgrade with a lot of bowl and short turn work. I didn't change the minimum cross section at all because it's already a little on the big side for what i want but the work increased the airflow significantly, so now the velocity will be closer to where I want it through the minimum. These heads are probably in the 325cc range now, bit with the small cross section of the 315 and they will out flow the 335 cnc. My guess is (without measuring them) the EQ heads are probably relatively small in the front and will work fine on a 500+ci engine with the right cam. They're not ideal, but for the price could be made to work real well. I wouldn't lose a minute's sleep over using them.
Here's the 315's I'm doing. I'm leaving the burr finish. https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...c9&oe=572EB5D4 https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...ce&oe=577130E0 https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...92&oe=5765AEDA My office... https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...e6&oe=57269ABE For those interested in numbers: Flow: (4.50 bore, 2.125" pipe on ex) right / left / ex .2 165.5 / 164.2 / 120.8 .3 249.2 / 245.6 / 204.4 .4 306.9 / 300.5 / 249.7 .5 351.7 / 344.7 / 277.3 .6 382.9 / 364.2 / 290.2 .7 398.1 / 382.9 / 302.7 .8 404.2 / 394.6 / 313.4 .9 411.0 / 401.9 / 318.2 1.0 412.1 / 405.6 / 321.7 Right port on 4.60 bore (just for reference to AFR's numbers) .2 166.0 .3 250.7 .4 312.4 .5 357.0 .6 389.3 .7 403.0 .8 406.2 .9 412.8 1.0 415.4 |
3 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by Panther
(Post 4405987)
I've read a lot of those posts as well, some good data. Articfriends has a ton of time on MPI's and seems to be the most knowledgeable with it from a home grown perspective.
I'm focused on my specific build though and those with specific hands-on experience with my setup. Thanks anyway for the info. |
Originally Posted by MILD THUNDER
(Post 4406875)
Frank, why don't we stop playing games. You are here to #1, basically look for a combination you could copy, for your own engine build, and #2, asking questions to myself and others, to play your agenda over on boatfreaks with the others. You have alot of ballz to criticize my advice, the guy who's wanting to dismiss a cylinder head on a build over 12cc of port volume, with no discussion of any other parameters of the cylinder head (which foxwell clearly explained here), and dismissing another cylinder head over 7cc worth of chamber volume (because its been CNC ported). Maybe you are unfamiliar with something called milling a cylinder head. But, I suppose for a guy who is looking to "copy" someone elses build, and stick to what he can "bolt on", I am not surprised. You're posts clearly show you have minimal understanding of engine design, and the fact you are playing games acting nice over here, and a wise azz over there, show your true colors. Please don't give me the bullchit of saying "thanks anyway for the info".
I put my post up over there because I was interested in hearing FACTS based on EXPERIENCE, not a debate over what you may think will work sitting behind your keyboard. You're exactly right, I was looking for a proven combination and I was not looking to reinvent the wheel. Not having worked with the MPI before, I'm not going to pretend to be an expert and come up with a package for someone. If YOU had in fact put together a package like the one I'm doing, I think you would have shared your experience but from what I gather, you never have. When you don't have experience with something, I don't suggest pretending to be an expert on it. By sitting here and insinuating I don't know anything about engine design is quite funny because you have limited expertise in that area as well. Neither of us are engine builders or designers. The funny part in all this is after all said and done the owner has purchased the EQ heads and decoded tp go in that direction due to price point. That had absolutely nothing to do with your input as much as I'm sure you would like to think it did. I believe you have had an issue with me since I questioned your friends water plumbing technique on Facebook a few months ago. During that exchange you wanted to argue with me over instant message so I agreed to disagree and move on. I still wouldn't plumb an engine with the water going through the exhaust manifolds before entering the engine unless maybe it was in frigid waters of Novascotia. Ever since then, it seems there's always been an issue. Quite honestly, I don't have an issue with you. You seem to have one with me so don't get upset when I react. Have a nice day! |
Yea, looks like you guys have quite the group of engine builders over there in that forum.
This was MY thread, in which you asked for input several times. If you dont like me, or anyone else here, i have a pretty good idea on what you can do with your questions. Have a good day!! |
Originally Posted by 14 apache
(Post 4406153)
Looks good how many hours to do a pair? Have you ever tried the brodix BB-3 332 XTRA O just wondering.
I've never used a set of the 332 ovals. |
Is it just me?
Originally Posted by Panther
(Post 4407038)
Have a nice day! Kinda of a have a nice day while I talk $hit about you on another forum type of have a nice day.. :argue::blahblah: |
Originally Posted by horsepower1
(Post 4407116)
By the time I do the valve jobs, the port work, surfacing, final blending, facing and back cutting valves, honing guides, etc and final clean and assembly, I can tie up a good 35-40 hrs in a set like this.
I've never used a set of the 332 ovals. |
Originally Posted by horsepower1
(Post 4407116)
By the time I do the valve jobs, the port work, surfacing, final blending, facing and back cutting valves, honing guides, etc and final clean and assembly, I can tie up a good 35-40 hrs in a set like this.
I've never used a set of the 332 ovals. |
Originally Posted by 33outlawsst
(Post 4407548)
bang for the buck spent = hp gained
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Originally Posted by sutphen 30
(Post 4407554)
AFR 335cnc heads.
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Originally Posted by 33outlawsst
(Post 4407548)
I really don't think that's bad at all, they do look nice, its all about the improvement over stock to me, bang for the buck spent = hp gained
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Originally Posted by sutphen 30
(Post 4407554)
AFR 335cnc heads.
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Originally Posted by abones
(Post 4407580)
Wonderful pieces right there, I only wish I had the Cubic inches to use them. more then my little 502s can use!
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Originally Posted by sutphen 30
(Post 4407597)
then either up that compression or add a whipple or vortech/procharger.
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Originally Posted by abones
(Post 4407599)
I have to admit that's a great idea!
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Originally Posted by sutphen 30
(Post 4407597)
then either up that compression or add a whipple or vortech/procharger.
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Originally Posted by horsepower1
(Post 4407605)
A 335 has no place on a 6000rpm 509, I don't care how much compression or boost you're running.
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Originally Posted by horsepower1
(Post 4407603)
It won't mean you need bigger heads.
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Originally Posted by horsepower1
(Post 4407584)
Nice heads, just not what I wanted.
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Originally Posted by sutphen 30
(Post 4407611)
well when you actually own a boat(and a fast one),you can make that statement.
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sutphen30
WTF |
Originally Posted by abones
(Post 4407619)
So what do you consider fast?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhwGR64_Ghw |
Not to bad, since were talking about cyl heads, I can run those speeds as well with my 315s!! on 502s. Nice video sounds good.
But I have to say that there is no need to pick on Horsepower! for not having a boat I hope you can respect my opinion! |
Originally Posted by sutphen 30
(Post 4407616)
what you wanted was a book on how to plumb a dry sump system.I see you have the fluff and buff down well.
You mean like this one? http://www.enginelabs.com/news/611-c...-technologies/ |
Originally Posted by abones
(Post 4407669)
Not to bad, since were talking about cyl heads, I can run those speeds as well with my 315s!! on 502s. Nice video sounds good.
But I have to say that there is no need to pick on Horsepower! for not having a boat I hope you can respect my opinion! Isn't that right, BIlly boy. Heck, that's not fast. My first boat went 116 in four seconds. I'd like to take Billy boy for a ride in that one. He'd shat himself. |
Originally Posted by sutphen 30
(Post 4407611)
well when you actually own a boat(and a fast one),you can make that statement.
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Originally Posted by horsepower1
(Post 4407676)
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh....php?t=1537217 |
Originally Posted by horsepower1
(Post 4407677)
That's all he's got. It happens every time he says something stupid and doesn't know what he's talking about. He resorts to the personal attacks. He;s not even an engine builder LOL...he sweeps floors and cleans parts.
Isn't that right, BIlly boy. Heck, that's not fast. My first boat went 116 in four seconds. I'd like to take Billy boy for a ride in that one. He'd shat himself. And I'm pretty sure that last line is a lie. |
Originally Posted by sutphen 30
(Post 4407613)
you missed buffing out some of those cnc marks on those 332cc heads,,finish them up properly so they're 335's.
And what the heck is a 332? NO such animal from AFR. |
Originally Posted by horsepower1
(Post 4407682)
Billy...if you go back and read you'll see where I said I didn't change the front of the port at all. I Increased the valve size, and ported the bowls and short turns, BIlly...bowls and short turns. I wanted the smaller cross section of the 315 and out-flow the 335s in the critical lift ranges.
And what the heck is a 332? NO such animal from AFR. |
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