High performance piston rings
 

Wondering what most other engine builders are using and if anyone has had any issues with "total seal"? Application is for 565/700 hp NA builds.

Why are you asking this? Are you are having a issue?

Dig around in here about total seal, I remember reading to not use them. I don't remember why, but it was pretty much agreed at the time, that the are not the best choice.

Did a quick search before thread and didn't see much unless comments regarding were buried in the post somewhere.

Not having issues however was quoted a price for Pistons with total seal rings. I've never used them and am curious. I've heard of street guys liking them but have no experience with myself.

i use them a lot,if the bore gets the hone total seal wants they seal great.imo,you can,t beat them in their price range.

I was originally gonna just use sp hell fires but then they quoted me with the TS. Told them to wait on placing order until I gave the word. just thought I'd ck before giving the go ahead. Seems like just about any internal moving part of an engine there are always pros and cons. I understand that. Some perhaps quality control but most probably human error or oversights then of course it's always the parts fault . Lol.

As Mike said block must be honest. I wouldn't let a shop touch the block unless they have an RA meter. Total Seal is hands down the leader in ring technology.

Yes they do. My blocks and rotating assm will be there anyway prior to assembly. I cked out their website. Pretty interesting with some good material. Learn something everyday.... But guess I forget something everyday also.

With the said info does this create any unforeseen issues down the road. (300 plus hours). Again this is assuming block is 100% true. starting out with fresh 9.8/4.600 darts that will require machining anyway.

Cant go wrong with Total Seal conventional rings . Their Gapless wasn't that great but they did work . We Used the tool steel top , and a Napier second . Also used the Rikkens. They are good too.

300 hours on hellfire rings?

i have had great results with the 0 gap top rings.

Not a builder but I've built enough motors. I've had good luck with Mahle with the stroker pistons. Never had a failure with Hastings either.

A good test would be , comparing ring seal at break in, and at 300 hours with a blowby meter.

Its been pretty much proven that low leakdown % isnt telling the story about how well a ring is sealing. Ive seen friends with total seal gapless rings push the dipsticks out, blow oil out the breathers, while their gapless ring still was showing like 5% leakdown on the gauge.

maybe time for a new leak gauge.through the years i have done a lot of lead down tests and the readings pretty much told the story.i have a snap on tester that i bought 20 years ago,it is a high quality gauge and i believe it is pretty acurate.i have seen the cheeper gauges that were pretty much useless.imo,if you have an engine that is blowing oil from the breathers and pushing the dip stick out their is no need to do a leak test as it is obviously leaking past the rings.

also want to mention that an engine with an overly rich tune up can ruin the ring seal on any brand of rings.often a person will blame the brand or type of ring for a failure when the tune up was the culprit.

FWIW..
I used a Total Seal AP conventional set in my build..

http://www.totalseal.com/images/NewSite/AP_Rings.jpg


Don't have it running in the boat yet but ran fine on the dyno..

Had a little bit of visible blowby out the breathers but I do have fairly wide end gaps for the blower.. ;)

Putting 100psi in a cold cylinder, with a stationary piston, with a ring that has zero gap, vs a ring with a gap, naturally is going to show different leakdown rates. Its like blowing thru a straw with no hole on the end, or a small hole on the end.

However, it has nothing to do with how the ring is sealing when there is 1500 psi in the cylinder, the piston traveling at 4000ft per minute, psi between the rings keeping the ring seated against the land, and so on.

Even the most expensive big power engines with big blowers , sometimes run puke tanks on them to catch the oil from the breathers.

My engines showed 15 percent leakdown when new, and still showed 15-18 percent leakage past the rings. Some guys would say thats too much. I dont care about the gauges reading. What matters, is that i have ran my boat over 400 miles, most of the time between 3/4 and wide open throttle, and didnt add a drop pf oil to the crankcase, nor had anything coming from the breathers. Shortly after that trip, i went on a fun run, where i ran 60 miles, where the engines never saw below 5,000 rpm, and spent most of the time at 5500 rpm. Again, no lost oil.

My engines have ran for the past 4 seasons , without a hiccup. But , ive always monitored air fuel ratio, and maintained them. I came off the dyno in 2012, with 82/92 jets . In the boat, at wide open, air fuel ratio was in the mid 12s, and dangerously lean in the high 13s at part throttle. I changed to 88/96 jets, gained speed, and now have a safer afr. Like you said though, a poor tune can kill rings and cylinder finish in a hurry. First thing ill be doing from here on out, is first time the engines come off the dyno and go in the boat, the afr will be on before i even get on plane .

After 100 plus hours at 800hp, the cylinders look like they were honed yesterday. Certainly not gonna look like that with a bad fuel tune.

https://youtu.be/bFFFqZrc9Qo Good info there on leakage tests

So wait a brand new build running around with primary and secondary power valves and AFRs below 9 (afr meter doesn't register any lower) isn't good? You must be joking. Blow by, oil usage, and cylinders that have a mirror look cause all the cross hatch is gone was the latest rage I thought

Is your avatar a butt??? It's kinda freaking me out!

The motor wasn't honed properly. It's probably down 20-30 horsepower than what it could be with the proper finish on the cylinder walls.

My thoughts on zero gap is the ring pack will get loaded up with oil needs a little blow by to push the oil down where it belongs. And I have run them but I would not any more did not like them. Gap rings work perfect and they use less oil and the pistons and chambers look cleaner. Plasma moly for me.

avatar is good , lets just put it that way . Why are you so worried bout it ?

Don't think he's worried about rather just had to take a second glance to confirm what it was. An azz with a cam holder or set of A set of clown tits. Either way it's all good. Lol

Thanks guys. Some good input here. I see pros and cons. I suppose whatever we tend to have good luck with we tend to stay with. Ive been building engines for 30 plus years and never used them. That's not say there a great ring however I just haven't. That's why I started the thread to get a little education on such and appreciate the input. Interesting... Responses. I've always used the plasma moly also. My only issue with them is seating time. That could be my fault from excessive oil on the cylinders though prior to assm. I've done a few with wd 40 and seated quicker however just don't like to do that. Good bad indifferent.

Stick with what`s worked for ya. I did the research and went standard moly
0 gap seems to be the feel good ring gap when you leakdown. At twice the price that doesn`t make me feel good.

<<<<<<
Is that better Todd?


:bananalove:

Total seal ring company the leader in piston rings? I'd find that hard to believe.

Mahle Corporation, supplies General motors, Ford, Chrysler, BMW , Ferrari, Toyota, Audi, Harley Davidson, and over 100 other engine manufactures with rings. Just their "Aftermarket division" , had over 900 million in gross sales. Employs 1700 people, and has 23 plants around the world. over 100 production locations and 7 research and development centers.

Total seal? under 50 employees, under 10 million in gross sales, 1 location in arizona.

I'm not Donald Trump, but I'd like to think, Mahle might know a little something about piston ring design , if companies like GM, FORD, Ferrari, Audi, and BMW, are going to them for piston rings.

That's odd for a moly ring not to seal same machinist for all motors? Always seal fast. The steel rings take a bit. My engines with zero gap top picked up about 10hp per pull for 3or4 pulls on break in.

Ya but do they give you beer at the PRI show :eekdrop:

Devil's advocate just because: Takata should know more about Airbag's. LOL.
This is how big they are: http://www.takata.com/ir/ir_pdf/140924ar_en.pdf

I heard that if you have 7 percent less leakdown on the gauge per cylinder, you multiply that by 8 cylinders. You then gain 56% more horsepower, because your engine is now sealing 56 percent better.

Or is it you gain 56psi of cranking psi from installing them? Or 56hp? Or 5.6HP? Or 5.6" inches of vacuum? Dammit, I can't remember. They're just more gooder. Where's the beer. :D

You should do the pri show close to your neck of the woods. Some very cool stuff and free beer at 6pm served by gorges girls. Lot of fun. As far as gapless or gap rings my turds will pull over 25" vacuum on dyno.
BEER IN HAND!

Just had a thought that never dawned on me til now but last engine dyno'd we used sythetic. Ran into same issue a couple times before and typically would dyno with lighter weight conventional oil. Not saying for certain however anyone ever have same or similar with Molly rings? i believe it's certainly a possibility...

Synthetic could be a problem. What was the symptoms blow by?
Did you use a torque plate?

Forget all this chit.. :offtopic: ICDEDPPL avitar went from 5 to 9.

I wanted to go this past year, but out of fear for my own safety, I decided to stay home under the blankets. :pacifier:

Maybe this year I can get Icdedppl to come with me. We can be the oso outcasts' having dinner and drinks by ourselves, wearing fake mustaches , as we are disliked by many here, and would not want to be spotted and hit by a flying set of lifters thrown from the crowd!

I can see it now. Him and I walking around, and someone shouting "hey, theres' those two azzholes who are ruining offshoreonly!"

yep.. likely so.. It only made 1020 hp.. Gotta keep the power down somehow to get my Bravo to live.. :)