Holley EFI in a boat - Doesn't Repeat
 

Built a nice 588 and finally got it done and running. Gotta tell you that this thing is scary if you can't use it in constant closed loop (which in a boat is nearly impossible). Makes for real ease of use and looks cool at SIMA but it does not work in marine environment.

I'm not a Holley basher and have not fully chosen another system yet but I spent some time on this and just wanted to give a word of caution on it. I have roughly 3K spent on it and making a nice custom harness etc. Plus another 1500 in dyno time. It's coming off -

It will work. Give Haxby or another expert a call. Are you running the V4 software?

You can try to post your specific problems here and see if others can help. There seems to be a few sharp EFI guys on here.

Yes and didn't say it wouldn't "work". I said it doesn't repeat. Very dangerous to use IF not always in closed loop. We did 7 pulls back to back after getting a final tune perfected. Once taken out of closed loop, the system was all over the place and as much as 2.5 points higher than what was programed to do in closed.

I've seen all I need to. It's nice if in closed loop; if NOT, then it's absolutely nutz to trust your engine to this thing.

Also, the firmware versions are tied to certain boards. I have an L board so according to Holley it's not compatible with mine. The J boards were a little more consistent but you can't get them any longer.

I've never heard of that issue before. I am on my second set of Holley efi setups and have not had the issues you describe. I would give someone a chance to help out and see if it's something obvious. If what you describe was the normal then we would have a bunch of blown engines with the system. There are a ton of car guys that use the system in open loop or after it gets tuned they turn the tuning gain down to %5 correction and that's not enough to compensate for 2.5 points on a blown 588.

Are you sure it's not as simple as a modifier pulling your fueling out of line?

-Intake air temp modifier
-Coolant temp modifier
-etc

Mark at MER Performance has had great luck with these systems. He's worked directly with Holley on the 572s in Yankey's Bullet, which are in this dyno video. http://merperformance.com/projects.html

I by no means have the experience as Alex..... I just finished up another two 525 EFI conversions using the Holley HP with bigger cams and modified heads along with a modified 525 intake and TB...Without seeing his set up with settings it could be very true his modifiers are throwing things off.... also is the water temp constant at 140 or 160 ? Without the Global Folder or Data log.... hard to say..... Of all the kits I've done never seen a inconsistency... I can take it out of learn and watch AFRs remain as targeted ...

I replied; in your post... You need to be specific on your issues, they are very unclear.... Doesn't repeat, what exactly do you mean ? Send your Global Folder and Data log...Who is giving you support on tuning and parameters ?

It's as simple as making a run and doing the exact same run 15 mins later with zero changes. even if modifers were cause they should do same thing twice and they don't.. i have the graph; it's not difficult to read. When you spend all day on a dyno and you make the same pull 5 times in a row and get different a/f curves but with no changes it's a flag. I wonder how many people have ever got the tune where they wanted it and then went back and did more pulls after taken out of closed to see the variance. According the guys at GT Performance, they see this all time. I saw it with my own eyes. It jumped from roughly 12.4 to 13.95 on a whim. See if i can post the pic later. I don't have the attachment option any longer and I'm not big on pics saved online.

I can't use any % correction once installed permanently.

Im surprised in open loop your numbers arent repeatable? I have always used mefi which is slow and painful to tune BUT once its tuned my afrs have stayed the same, I would expect the same from holley unless you are getting erratic map readings or tps readings (they have the most effect on something in open loop on any system), how do your map/kpa readings in boost look, thats where I would look hard, coolant temp, iat etc is miniscule once warmed up?

I reran the pulls on my last motors and they were right on. I also logged all the time and would check both motors files after every day out on the water. Never any variation. All that was in open loop with the original tune being in closed loop.

I would see some variation on my supra with the gen 1 aem or my pro efi with some RF noise.

Which Holley system are you running?

Agreed, but not that there's an issue with the software. If your base map isn't very good, you can see rich and lean dips when not in closed loop. If your fuel pressure fluctuates you can see dips as well. Bad connection on a sensor, poor wiring connections or routing, etc. there's lots of things that can cause issues for any system. Luckily, the Holley system allows anyone with basic computer skills to datalog and review the information. It's not rocket science, you're looking for X amount of fuel at X rpm and load. If the base map is asking for 354lbs of fuel at 6000rpm and that's what the engine wants to maintain 12.5 AFR but you're at 13.5 AFR, then there is a problem, and the datalog will show you what it is. I do remote tuning for dyno shops all the time, if those guys need help I'd be happy to link up and sort it out.

You might have an injector issue or one of the other problems mentioned by Haxby. I doubt its the ECM.

I have tuned and installed/wired a few different systems. First let me say I do not mean any disrespect to you or the shop you were at.

Did you keep your sensor grounds isolated from any outside sources?

What WB sensor setup are you using and where is the sensor located? (WB sensors do not like water or high heat)

What is the engine setup? Blower? (Heat soak is a big problem especially on blown applications, unfortunately I have WASTED many hours chasing my tail trying to tune around heat soak, that was until I figured out it was heat soak)

On your pulls was the air temperature, coolant temp, engine load, fuel pressure, battery voltage, baro etc all consistent?

What fuel injectors are you running?

Before you do anything harsh and remove the system with all the money and time you have in it, let's see if the helpful members of this site can figure out the issue. You could remove the Holley, install another system and still see issues, just saying.

I would like to look at your logs if you don't mind. If you don't, please email me the logs and cal to [email protected]

John

I am far from a efi expert but I have little knowledge of basic control theory and coupled with a basic understanding of how the systems work and something isn't right. A carburetor is a mechanical system to , control airflow , atomize fuel and set AF ratio. Been around for a long time and painfull to setup and basically impossible to make effect for all conditions, Along comes efi. Granted a closed loop feedback adds a level of real time self tuning and optimization but even as a open loop system it should be at least as repeatable as 100yr old technology if not considerately better.

I run my e85 turboed 900hp small block street car in open loop. Once you get it dialed in it should be repeatable.

It sounds like the closed loop setup is able to compensate for something that's not doing its job.

Are you logging fuel pressure as well to make sure that it is not shifting from pull to pull? That's one of the "constants" the ECM doesn't have control over that could play a big part in your variance.

I would take Haxby on his offer, he is an EFI and Holley EFI genius. I'm on my 3rd season and 2 motor with Holley efi, and it's been nothing but amazing so long as the initial settings/base Map are correct. Send him your global folder, I be you have an answer by the end of the day. Good luck

You are saying that in open loop your reading will change 2.5 points in the exact same fuel map cell? That would be my question. Most likely you are getting into a different cell in the map that is not correct because of load, rpm or whatever reason. Get some data logs and study them extensively, then smooth out the map. I'm currently building a Cobra replica with stack injection and Holley HP efi. I had some similar issues with tuning below 2500 rpm. I finally turned off closed loop and mapped it manually to get it to run right. I'd like to see a copy of your tune file and some data logs if you get a chance to send it.

[email protected]

Bob

I hope to get back up there this weekend. Just too busy to spend a bunch of time online with it etc. but i'll get the file and logs when i go back. Bascially all was equal and 15 mins or less apart. When you get it like you want it, transfer learn to base & smooth the table then go out of closed loop (zero percentage corretion) it will not repeat itself but it should. I wonder how many users have spent the time on dyno to watch the open loop runs several times after taking it out. Ultimately in my boat, i can never run correction and need to count on it staying where we set it. So far, that has not been the case and it's not only on one ecu.

Also, there are other bugs in it as well. .. Like regardless of how many times and when you cycle ignition it has saving issues as well.

This could well be your problem.

If you smooth the table, and you have some adjacent values that are significantly different, it will skew your "learned" data.

I can put some random values in my Dominator tonight to illustrate this if it helps.

I always have had to do some manual mapping. I get them to where I can run open loop before they come off the dyno. Then retune in the boat. You just can't simulate all the load points on the dyno. Closed loop is a nice tuning aid, but you can't keep it there in a boat. Even for tuning I seem to always turn it off at lower rpm and tune it manually. I've got it turned off below 2000 rpm in my Cobra. It just wasn't happy with the stack injection at very low throttle settings.

Bob

I would take haxby up on his offer!
He won't even return my calls related to remote tune! :-(

It sounds like they aren't very familiar with how to use the software. Also, I'm not sure how your dyno shop not being able to get the tune dialed in on the dyno translates to You don't have to call me, but call someone who is familiar with the system before these guys waste a whole bunch of your time and money and talk you in to putting a MEFI on it.

I thought you ran FAST EFI Larry?

I'll tell you what, I'll take that fuggin POS junk Holley off your hands. I ain't gonna pay much for it though, since it's a giant turd. :whistle::party-smiley-004:

Haha

I do run fast, but haxby can remote tune those as well. I called and left a message, but no return.
I understand, he is busy.
Larry

Running great in closed loop and "all over the place" in open loop GENERALLY means the basemap isn't optimized for your in-boat setup.
Vacuum leaks, sensor connections, fuel pressure stability - those also can trigger frustrating problems.

M

I've been running ms3pro's for a couple years now, they worked great at first but moisture killed them. I don't know if Holleys are as sensitive but it might be worth considering
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxo...ew?usp=sharing

The Holley is fully potted.

heres a couple of things, find someone who has made this stuff work..alex haxby, make sure your 02 is not getting ANY water back to it, I have been down both the roads and will drive you nuts

that's another issue is the o2 sensors, the clock is running on them. I've had them last a month, and a week. They hate salt water even worse. Get your tune locked down, then get into open loop.

I'm switching to Holley. is anyone here ( Haxby? ) a reseller for Holley? I need two dominators

I've been running the Holley system for over 4 years with no issues ....closed loop the entire time ... I do not "learn" below 1200 rpm ....we did kill a cpl of O2's at idle at first and then it would dump a bunch of fuel ...the fix for that day would be to go back to base tune in open loop ... I carry a spare O2 sensor but since the change at idle no issues for quite a while ....always carry my tablet with me just in case ...:) 540 M3's 850hp ....

Just a note we did have some issues on the Dyno .... I believe the dyno had some RF issues and since in the boat they are nonexistent ...........m

Same for me - 4 seasons now with Holley HP on stack injection unit. I only activate closed loop & learn above 1500rpm. Also carry a spare o2, but haven't had to change one since I ran across and started using this item (just a little more protection from water with no noticeable difference in AFR reading).

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=250&page=2