Cam and valvetrain longevity....??? low duration high lift...
 

OK, we all know the issues I had and that's all over, well kinda I hope, I have a trans issue so I may pull BOTH engines and recam because I am still not even close to happy with my results, that being said I am thinking if trans turns out to be a valve issue (that I can fix in boat) I leave engines alone till I need to refresh or have another issue (happens a lot haha) the part that worries me is the cams I have, with HIGH lift, LOW duration, and 190/590 spring pressures....

MY cam is 241/[email protected] 680/663 on a 112

So, question, this seems to be a more recent aggressive cam choice given out to buyers last couple years... I have been informed of extremely fast ramp rates and broken lifters as a result, I think that's one reason "HE" went to Johnson because talking to the engineer I was informed they can handle MUCH more spring pressure then Morels, I had one set of heads with solid spring pressures at first and didn't hurt anything ( fixed after the "issue") I am told the valves are beating the chit out of the seats, and will surface issues at about 100 hours... I am at 65, I am looking for PROOF of good or bad info and results, lots of guys seem happy with the cam choices from "him" but then say " only logged 10 hours or so" I cannot find any info supporting LONG TERM durability...

if I hear results of guys spinning cams and springs nearly identical to mine for 300-400 hours with no issues, I may leave them until refresh time, if I see pics and proof of issues I will be replacing no matter what at 65 hours..

FYI this is not a Bob bash thread, or Poor Full Force thread, this is for FACTUAL info that's been on my mind since last winter, it sucks to spend what I did and wonder if and when my valvetrain will fail and cause me headaches...

Thx for input maybe even myself can keep on track this time lol

You need the new Koenigsegg valvetrain.

For sure!!

I think thats pure crapola. I know a ton of guys, who are running ALOT of spring pressure on morels lifters, as well as alot of RPM. Thats probably one of the reasons they were the lifter of choice when It came to hydraulic roller stuff that last decade or so. Prior to the morels, you almost never heard of guys turning a HYD roller bbc to 7000rpm.

I been running mine since 2012. While I don't have 300 hours on them, they are in the 150 hour range. Spinning close to 6000rpm in the boat, and have pulled them 6500RPM on the dyno with no signs of valvetrain issues. Last spring setup was 180/480 lbs , new setup came in around 200/500 lbs. These are the 4603 series, not even the "high rpm" 5045 series.

The 4603 lifters "recommendation" was for continuous operation to 6600rpm, with spring pressures of 160lbs seat, and around 450 open if I recall.

The 5045 lifters, continuous operation of 7000RPM, with a spring pressure of 200-225 seat, and 500-575 open.

Morel supplied, and continues to supply, Howards, Lunati, Isky, Crower, PBM/ERSON, Bullet, and some others with those two lifters.

I have no experience with the Johnsons, but can't say I have heard anything bad about them, and the axle oiling is a nice feature they offer on the hyd lifter. As far as the johnsens being able to handle "more" spring psi than a morel, I call bs. If its well known the morels can and have handled 600lbs of open pressure and some pretty high rpm, I can't see a reason why you would ever need more spring psi than that. At that point, you should be looking at a solid lifter.

One of the other "selling points" of the morels, was the .750 roller wheel diameter, where most stock and oem style lifters had a .700 wheel like the johnsons.

As to the original question, it would be good to hear who has had what results. Since this was your first season on this build, I would probably at minimum do a compression test, and then do a leakdown check and see how the valves are sealing. Then maybe take valve covers off and take a look at the springs and a simple visual check on things. If all is good and healthy, I'd prob just run it.

that was just my assumption on why the Johnsons come into play, no clue for sure..

Yes compression and leakdown will happen in or out of boat to see where I am at, if engines out they get cams, then again we have had that discussion lol

Quit F'N around and just put a 3/4 race cam in the damn thing and be done! :fear:

If I recall you were 241/246-670 or so. I may have stated this in one of your other threads however valako runs like something real close 236/244-707 gross lift on the intakes. Custom ground hyd roller and runs solid roller and springs. No issues. Been running that way for years and that lift is with 1.8 rockers. You'd think if any combo would have premature valve train wear or failure that would but seems to be pretty trouble free.

Seems like I've heard of issues when running the 5045's under 6k because of the high rpm design. Can't remember if it was they wouldn't pump up all the way or what. It was a while back I read an article. Not sure how true it is but seems like most use the 4603's with success for the most part at or under the 6,500 plus or minus.

There's something to be said using the recommended lifter for desired cam.

If I were you Tim, I would pull engines and change the cams. At least you will sleep at night, even if you were to gain nothing. This stuff is going to put you in the nut house and it's not worth it. You're taking years off your life over a couple grand.

Do I dare say us too ? :poopoo:

Look you have to pull the intakes to get to the lifters, So itsjust as easy to put a blower manifold back on.... then drop the blower on and your golden....

I have a feeling it's not so much the couple of grand more so the extra power and speed gained. However with that said what's that magic cam so it's not all a waste of time and money. I know of a custom grind that I am certain would work well and achieve his goals but would like to see him get his heads flowed to see how close they are to advertised. At least one anyway. More power to be had with those heads.

Spend what I did, go slower, and add the nonstop worrying.... I have the right to be extremely upset dude...and I am actually looking for a solid answer to fix it

Mild has a grind that seemed to really wake it up on the computer, the existing numbers were within a few HP of my dyno sheet, I am going to contact a few to get overall opinions, Dean Gellner just did 540's making 706, I am going to talk to him, and Cam Motion direct, and a few others like Comp, Erson and such...

what is your grind? EVERYONE has so fasr told me I need to be in the 250'[email protected].... to start..

no hatch space for them... pro chargers at a later date, blowers are pointless with TRS and 540;s anyway...

Yikes if HR rollers lifters. Or are you saying solid roller lifters ?

Looks like another Cam thread. What most don't realize is when the lift increases on a Lobe , the Duration also has to increase . Because of Valvetrain Stability. The magic bullet , high lift low duration cams, have a built in flaw . There is not enough Duration on the lobe to control bounce and loft. Everyone thinks that a lifter follows the lobe exactly. Not true. You have what is called Loft , at increasing RPM , the Lifter does not want to follow the lobe . Inertia takes over and objects in motion tend to stay in motion.
Thus the lifter jumps the nose of the lobe , and tries to land gracefully on the backside of the lobe. If it lands to far down the lobe , it bounces. Which sets up a Harmonic through the whole Valvetrain , The only solid points to dampen the Oscillations are , the Lifter and Lobe interface , and the Valve to Seat Interface. Resulting in Valves and Valve Seats that have been beaten to **** , Or Lifters that break due to the severe harmonic ( Bounce ) that is placed on them.
I know the theory , and the brain trust , behind the Magic Bullets. Trust me there is no magic bullet. If a name brand cam company doesnt have the lobe
configuration your looking for, There is a good reason why. That Reason is Thousands of Hours , and Millions of Dollars of R&D into Master Cam Lobe developement. That
actually works .

Morels are junk. Buy Johnson. Ask me how I know!!!

Lifters are always the scape goat for a number of other valvetrain issues I think.
My spring pressures are 218/545 and the standard Morels haven`t failed me in 4 years and this year I`ve run em a little past 6200rpm.

I know quite a few guys, including myself, who have been running morels with great sucess. And they arent a basic 600hp build. Talking 800, 900, 1000, and 1200hp engine's that have seen north of 6,000rpm. Icdedpples 900s have some time on those lifters, as have mine. How many hours have you got on the johnsons so far? And whats the cam/spring combo?

I know some have had some issues with them, and some noise issues. I will say this, if you have a hyd lifter capable of 7000rpm and 600lbs over the nose, the clearances are tiny, and very precise in those lifters. They do not tolerate any debris in the oil, and an immaculate engine assembly is imperative.

Mine did have some lifter noise after this springs reassembly. It did however, go away after a little run time. They arent quiet like a stock gm lifter though. But then again, i wouldnt pull my engines to 6500 with a stock gm lifter and 500 plus lbs of open psi , with a blown engine and heavy azz valves..

Not sure if id say they are junk. Outside the oso world, they are still the lifter of choice for a serious bbc build thats needs a hyd lifter capable of rpm. Their lifter bodies and tolerances are far from junk material or machining .

The answer to all the cam problems and controversy.....


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and their are still some people that think you can spin a hyd roller cam to 6000+rpm with 140 on the seat&under450 on the nose,then they blame the cam or the lifter when things get beat to failure.

Solid roller lifters on billet hyd roller cam. Works well.

I only said what many think in the other thread, don't get me wrong, I want every guy to get the most bang for his buck$ and truly feel bad for Tim .

Some guys do it the other way too. Run a hydraulic roller on a solid "tight lash" camshaft.

I've noticed some cam cards from custom cam guys, where the lash settings were crossed out, and handwritten "HYD" on the cam card. Wonder if they really are running a tight lash solid profile, and dont even know it. A "cheater" cam so to speak.

I worked with dean a couple of times. He loves making power and good at it. He comes up with some pretty good grinds with the help of comp. I wouldn't hesitate to call him. I've got a couple of his grinds myself. My personal opinion and experience on the 250'[email protected] is fine as long as your numbers are what you want at the rpm your running. I know we covered this before as to what is ideal for marine. You spec cam to make peak hp at your max running rpm or spec one that continues to make power 500-750 rpm higher than. If second option makes more power at your max running rpm then for most it would be a no brainier. Good flowing heads with the right size runner don't always like a lot of cam.

I am still shocked what little difference yours was from 5,500-6,000. Gellner was doing a lot of 540's a few years back and getting a solid 650 hp with custom comp grind and dart pro one 310's. Be sure and pm me what you find out from him to make sure it's not the same cam cause I have those numbers. He evidently has something new. Did Bob recommend the 325's? Pm me your ph number if you'd like and I will give you a shout.

You obviously have too much common sense. Lol . Not sure if thats legal these days.:rolleyes:

Package package package

Leave it alone or improve your entire package , maybe carbs, intakes, exhaust, and Cams....just doing cams Alone won't make you happy.

Good luck and you definitely deserve to be happy with your build.

Btw I am willing to try a couple on new builds. Help would be nice if anyone is up to it. I'm always up for trying something new. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

Bck 548 build loved more intake and carb. 305 cnc heads though

If I recall OP has some clearance issues. Might have to cut some holes. You know.

Be very interesting to put a edelbrock R intake with a 1050 dom

Something else to consider. You could have two roller camshafts, with identical .050 duration numbers, and even identical max lobe lift. The shape, or "profile" of the cam, can absolutely dictate, what the spring requirement is. In otherwords, a 150/400 spring combo, might rev to 6000 without skipping a beat on one of the profiles, while on the other profile, it might loft the crap out of the lifters and slam the valves off the seats.

This is why, millions of dollars goes into lobe design. A lobe that works well for an endurance engine, might not be the lobe you want for a max effort drag engine, and vise versa. The duration and lift might be the common denominator, but it ends there.

I have no problem picking out a cam from one of the big cam companies catalogs/lobe lists. However, the lobes design, is where things get complicated. Most of the major cam companies, have lobe designs, for all different applications. Drag race, street, endurance, marine, and so on. They invest the money and time using spintron testing, and other methods to come up with a lobe profile. This is not to be confused, with a cam recommendation. Designing a successful cam profile, isn't something you can do from your kitchen table. You can however, pick one from a list of lobes that has already been designed and tested and most importantly, PROVEN. Just need to be sure that profile, has actually been designed and tested for a big block chevy with steel valves, with conventional heads, if thats what you're running, and not a LS engine, or ford engine, etc. What is stable in a LS engine, might be a nightmare in a big block chevy at higher rpm. Typically the fix for that, would be throw lots of spring pressure at it, big heavy duty pushrods to handle it, best lifters you can get, stud girdles, and hope for the best.

I have a buddy who's heavy into street racing scene. LS powered 9 second car with a decent shot of spray. I recently saw on his facebook page, that he kept breaking exhaust rockers (jesels). I got to see his engine builder chime in , and talk about how "it is what it is" because of his valvetrain is aggressive. He didn't want to hear about actually fixing the problem, they rather accepted repeated rocker breakage as part of the maintenance program. I simply told him, that if you can't make a LS valvetrain stay together for a car that sees 9 second blasts at a time, I'd hate to see your "offshore engines"...Local builder too, once I saw his ignorant replys, I pretty much ruled out ever bringing anything to that guy. Everyone fails once. Keep doing it over and over, and you are simply losing.

Again, spend what I did and have thes results, I am sure 40,000 is no big deal to you or never spent it and got screwed, I am literally looking for info on what I will be doing..you said what you think, I say what MANY think and I am the jerk, it's internet get over it...

If that was the case with me the "cheater" part failed big time lol

I told bob 700 hp and 6000 rpm, and asked for the parts to get me there, I am not even close, some guys here blame myself building them as the issue and CLEARLY that's not the case, they made 3 hp apart and .3TQ apart, that's a crap build huh? all 16 cylinders pump within 5 psi of each other, crap builder.... the results are not my building the results are not a good combo....

I was shocked at 5500-6000 results also, that's where it should come alive, that's why I think cams are just way too small....

According to about 5 or more other people the cams WILL make a huge change... my carbs are 1050's, intakes good, stainless marine exhaust, those are not the issue....

ON dyno I used 850 cfm of air....

Tim, just slap in a 270/280 @.050 on a 112 .700 lift spin it to 6500rpm and it will add 100hp. Anything less than that and I think it's a waiste of your time and money.

Do you have step nose cams in your engines right now?

It's not even as much about the HP vs the potential disaster issues, yes of course more hp would be good and any cam bigger will help...

Yes I have the step nose

Tim, is your 0-60 time any better with the new builds? How about in the 1/4 mile?

D, none of the above.... Lol