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Final configuration of rebuilding my 502
It looks like finding a good ring pack for the stock 4.46 bore is a pita, so may as well punch it out to 4.5 bore, and my biggest question is upping my CR a good idea for 91 pump gas? I’m switching out the ZZ502 cam for the 168731 can which should bleed off a little more pressure, and SRP makes a -10cc piston that was made for the Edelbrock heads. It looks even if I deck the block .010 I should be at 10.25:1 at most, and that’s not including the bore notching and the fact that the Edelbrock heads tend to measure out closer 113cc according to the internet. Thoughts? stock GM 4bolt 9.8 block edelbrock Rpm Performer oval heads (advertised 110cc chambers) Victor Jr intake QF850m carb Crane 731 cam SRP pistons w/moly too ring https://www.summitracing.com/parts/srp-212161-8 |
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Bore notch is about 1 cc give or take. I'm on way out the door but shouldn't you have not used -neg for piston volume. Just put in 10? |
If you can find the cam card valve (timing events) for the zz cam post it. Also I may have mis read your first post with your piston being dome or dish. I can ck comp calculator also when I get back. |
It should be +10 cc for a dish. That would give you 8.85
With a 3 cc dish, you'd be about 9.3 and adding 1 cc for bore notching would be 9.23 With flat tops you'd be at 9.5 and 9.43 |
The Summit calc considers the area displaced by the dome, so a dish would be a + number. The stock piston a 1cc done and the replacements that I’m looking at are 10cc domes. |
You could use a thicker MLS gasket .051, drop it down a little.
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Originally Posted by GPM
(Post 4616695)
You could use a thicker MLS gasket .051, drop it down a little.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...a9e653611.jpeg |
I'm not an engine builder, I would run it on 93 pump gas, I would run more cam though. Here's another calculator Compression Ratio Calculator | Tools | Diamond Racing Pistons
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Looking through the old threads of the same question it looks to be prudent to keep it 9.8:1 and 34* max timing. |
I would think you would be close enough at 9.9, but that's just me.
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I found some -6 of the same design and those seem to land me right where I can fine tune chamber volume with head gaskets.
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There you go, good luck with your build !!
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I get where your at now just most piston manufacturers consider domes a +cc so in original post I assumed dish. No biggy. What is the part number on your heads? #60479? Also you are you leaving heads untouched. A little work on those would make your engine happy and would increase CC's if you did some chamber work and a little unshrouding. GM oval ports flow similar with not a lot of effort with 2.19/1.88 valves. Regardless your gonna have a nice reliable build. |
IMO, going from a 224/234 110 LSA camshaft, to a 226/236 112 LSA cam, is a waste of time. 2 degrees of duration, and 2 deg of LSA , arent going to change much.
I would much rather have went to at LEAST the crane 741 cam, preferably even a tad larger being that you are going to be 10:1 compression. I think the 731, with that much compression, you're gonna have to run 93, or be very close on your tune up. The HP500 cam, is slightly smaller than the 731 and ZZ502, but also was like 8.75:1 static. Id guess with either of those cams, she will be done around 5200RPM as far as making HP. At that point, you might consider keeping the ZZ502 dual plane intake, the Victor JR might not even begin to outperform it until close that area...I'd really lean towards the 741 cam in this build myself. |
Some good points. |
The serial number on the head is 19510 and 6045. I bought this engine off of Vintage Chromoly years ago and he had the heads massaged a bit. When I had them rebuilt last year the machinist said that they looked pretty good.
When I started this project I didn’t plan on changing much and got the 731 cam to use with the flat tops that are likely about 9.3:1 or so but a lot has changed. At this point I’ll probably grab a Comp cams EFI525 clone or 741 if one pops up. |
I'd also be very careful what piston you choose with those heads bajarooster. That head has spark plugs that are closer to the center of the bore, which some dome pistons can hit.
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Tech Note: The Spark plug is closer to center of bore, for use with flat top or low dome pistons and will interfere with high-dome pistons for open chamber heads. If a high compression domed piston is to be used, purchase a piston designed for use with this Edelbrock cylinder head. Tech Tip: To gain more spark plug clearance, Edelbrock recommends using Champion RC Series plugs such as the RC12YC. They are 0.230'' shorter than a conventional spark plug and have a 5/8'' hex for easier access. |
Originally Posted by MILD THUNDER
(Post 4616924)
I'd also be very careful what piston you choose with those heads bajarooster. That head has spark plugs that are closer to the center of the bore, which some dome pistons can hit.
i did a little reading on that also. |
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Originally Posted by MILD THUNDER
(Post 4616924)
I'd also be very careful what piston you choose with those heads bajarooster. That head has spark plugs that are closer to the center of the bore, which some dome pistons can hit.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/srp-212154-8 |
Stupid question... It says different sized rings for a closed chamber head. What’s a closed chamber head and why would it require different rings?
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And I’m still on the fence with the Victor Jr. The Performer airgap is an amazing manifold for what I use the boat for, but I’m in that grey area with a 509. All of the tests that I see are on 454s. Any input on this is appreciated.
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Head flow numbers. Not stellar compared to what's available these days, but an improvement over stock Eddy's. I had these flowed when Bob M. had me running in circles to pick out a cam back then.
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Originally Posted by Baja Rooster
(Post 4616957)
Head flow numbers. Not stellar compared to what's available these days, but an improvement over stock Eddy's. I had these flowed when Bob M. had me running in circles to pick out a cam back then.
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In regards to the bore notching, does one also gasket match the heads? There’s also an 1/8” of material on the chambers before the gasket. I may as well blend and polish the chambers as there’s plenty of compression for it.
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Be sure to match and intake to heads. Depends on what gaskets you have whether to gasket match or not. Also blend back a good 1/2-3/4". Over the years I've seen a lot of so called gasket matching and is completely pointless. I like to use cardboard for reference btwn intake and heads. Just bolt down and remove. Open and closed chamber is basically what it says. Years ago prior to octane concerns I do believe many heads were closed chamber. Open chamber just came into place to lower compression ratio. There can be benefits to both. There is power to be made or lost with chamber work. You can spend a lot of time and gain nothing if your not familiar with porting heads. Might be worth sending them off to a recommended head porter unless you just plan to do a little polishing and blending. Look ok on the net for pics of open chamber and closed chamber heads. Closed can come in handy so you don't have to run big domes. All depends on what the build is for. As far as I'm concerned a flat top piston is ideal but I won't go into that however I think most outdated agree for the same reason. The explosion that takes place so to speak is more equal across the piston top and helps eliminating piston rock etc. But im by no means I'm no expert rather just years of experience. hope I explained that ok in a way that made sense. Lol... |
Btw those flow numbers are better than the ones I looked at. I apologize for that. I must have looked at a different eddy head. Might have been sbc? Not sure. |
Thanks, John. I would even argue that dished pistons are even better yet, but this is a mild NA and the domes are pretty small. On this build I do believe though that the heads are probably the weakest link. I’ll clean up these chambers and port them a smidge/ gasket match them and hope for the best. I watched a few YouTube videos, lol!
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These could definitely use a little up just getting rid of the casting ridges for the sake of hot spots and preignition.
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The gasket to the heads isn’t bad, but I’m surprised to see the intake holes so much smaller than the gasket.
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Trim your Intake gasket at the head , looks like your interfering in the corners. I wouldnt worry about the mismatch of a smaller manifold. It kind of creates a small anti reversion step back to the plenum.
You can get up to a .060 MLS head Gasket from Cometic or Fel Pro . I would have a head porter soften those chambers alittle . The Edl head was designed for drag racing to get up the compression . Probably not the most optimum set up for a marine . |
I would measure the height and width of the intake runner on the head and get a gasket that fits it correctly. Felpro has the sizes listed in their catalog. Don't worry about the intake being a little smaller, most are. Optimal, no, but it will work fine
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I see what snap is saying however I'd be getting after that intake big time. You can actually loose some velocity. Look at it like a funnel effect. It will be fine as is just power to be made. Been down that road. Many intakes are manufactured to be ported to match up to heads rather the other way around. I use to play around with a lot of that stuff and even ran an rec port intake up against raised dart floors. That's a whole other story but anyway will gain power opening up the intake ports. That can actually be an easy 35-50 hp gain depending on build. I wouldn't say it i didn't see it on the dyno. Just an FYI. |
I’ll grind out the intake to better match as well. In particular on the end runners it looks like the mounting bolts get in the way quite a bit but there’s a ton of casting flash everywhere that needs to be cleaned up.
These guys did a fun little experiment of some at home head porting and got nearly 100hp with no other changes. |
Port matching is NOT always better..
Plenty of BBC intakes run great with smaller port opening than the heads, and artificially "opening them up to match" doesn't always result in gains. The ONLY way to know is if you have a flow bench in your garage. The next best is to find a dyno comparison on the web where your heads and intake were compared to others. Some intake shootouts are very detailed and actually mention whether they played with port matching or not. When I was a teenager, I port matched EVERYTHING, I ported bowls, unshrouded valves, notched bores, airfoiled and trimmed valve guides, ruined the short-side radius of many intake ports, lapped too-wide valve seats, used bad valvetrain geometry theory, etc. As with all things in life, you eventually learn that "speed tricks" sometimes work against you. MC |
Not always. Depends on build. I've seen it on the flow bench and dyno both. Along with actual boat speed and rpm. Good example and test was 5/16" raised floor dart rec port heads done by Valako in 89 as well as intake. Intake manifold floors raised to to match. Engine made great power. Removed the expoxy from intake as I was having another one done by Jim and prior to being complete I put the other on with NO raised floors to get by for a weekend and made ZERO difference in boat speed and rpm. We called it the tumble effect. Air tumbling into intake port perhaps even helping fuel atomization. Who knows but it's been done as well by others with using a rec port intake manifold bolted up to oval port heads. never tried an oval port intake with rec port heads. Although i have witnessed 502/540 builds ported by Jim and dynoed with stock dart intake and were no happy with the dyno results as customer didn't want to spend the extra money on intake work. To make a long story short after getting port matching along with other manifold work there was a 55-57 hp gain. True story. Its amazing how far off out of the box dart heads can be off with out of the box dart intake. I've seen a port here or there with one side or the other being off up .060. So not always is very true statement. |
I did it once, not sure how it affected power but the intake would condensate a ton near the plenum on the outside so I’m guessing there was quite a bit of air speed. |
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Definitely reversion going on with that 110ls cam. All of the ports look similar and these heads were rebuilt 20 hours ago.
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The holes machined for the rocker bosses. Any reason not to epoxy those those up and smooth them out? I figure pull the guide plates off, grease the bottom of the rocker stud so the epoxy doesn’t glue to them, and fill it up with epoxy. I’ll leave the boss material there but that sure looks like an ugly snag.
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