Turbine powered eliminator (project)
 

Since it's so dead in here. Let me pass this by you guys.
I would like to build a turbine powered boat, but I have no hans on experience with turbines. So I'm considering a small turbine project boat to get a little experience.

Boat; 21' eliminator daytona, center pod, cat. (I used to have one of these with a 300hp Evinrude, ran 97mph.) There's one for sale on Trader Online for around $7K, no power.

Turbine; Allison T63-A-700, about 300hp, includes reduction gearbox to 6000 rpm. Can be purchased for $12K, w/ guages, stand, starter, all accessories. Better deals are also available, but some assembly required.

Drive; Inline ASD6, got it already.

Installation: Exhaust aft, intake forward. Gearbox output comes out of the intake (front) of the engine. A hydraulic brake can be fabricted or purchased to go on the output flange. This will stop the power turbine for shifting.
Fabricate a drop box with a cogged pully (like a blower pulley) connected to the turbine output. This drives another pulley below the turbine by using a drive belt (similar to "Flash Gordons" drive setup). There will be a 1.5:1 reduction with the pulleys.
The lower pulley is connected to a crash box (already got one) for shifting. The crash box will be mounted under the turbine with the output pointed aft. A drive shaft connects the crashbox output to the ASD6. A carrier bearing will have to be fabricated for this.
Oil tank, batteries, etc. can be mounted in the back in either sponson.
It's either this project or rerig a 31 Excalibur cat that I can get for a song.
What do you think?

Gary

Gary,

Sounds like a challenging project :) I'll be happy to help you in those areas where I'm knowledgeable. We've been running Turbines in our Unlimited since 1990. Ours are Lycoming T-55L7C. These were used in the Shinook helos during the Viet Nam war and are still in use today. They are factory rated at 2650 HP. In the boats we're rule restricted to 4.3 GPM of fuel at 110% of N2 for a total shaft HP of about 2900 to 3000.

In the application you're talking about, (T-63) I don't know that the HP (300) will be enough for you. By the itme you load it down with reduction gears, etc. your final propshaft HP may not raise the fun factor high enough to justify the expense.

A couple of good folks to speak with would be Dean Claussen at the Bravo Shop in Fort Myers. He ran a turbine in a 26' Cat for several years as he developed his B Max drive. JAFO on the OSO Board works on jets every day and lives in the Chicago area. Nice guy and boat savvy.

A word of caution: boat insurance and turbine power are rarely found in the same sentence :( While one might not worry about the hull insurance, it's the liability I'd be concerned with. If a PT section goes away on you, and the containment blanket (available from Security race products) doesn't suffice, you have a pretty heavy disk spinning at lots of RPM flying thru the air like a 25 pound frisbee taking out mstt anything in it's path, including hulls and humans.

If you do it, keep us advised, it will be quite the engineering adventure!

The weight will have a big affect. 97- all the add weight might bring it down quite a bit. Find a bigger turbine :D

I've been curious about one of these projects, so I've been collecting some infor as I came across it. Most of these guys are using jets so that they can have reverse with out the shifting problem that you mentioned. This guy is pretty close to me and just recently sold his boat.

http://www.limiteddesigns.com/

Here is the auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...873110538&rd=1

Here is a bulletin board that lists some used turbines for sale:
http://www.barnstormers.com/engJ0000.html

This guy did a project pretty simular to yours-except he to used a jet pump. As I recall the buildup was very well detailed and should provide you with some great info.
http://www.nyethermodynamics.com/

Now, I can't find a link for these guys, but if I recall they were called "Marine Technologies Incorporated" or "MTI" as I remember, they did a bigger boat with a thousand horse engine. Had a couple of video and a bunch of pics too.

Looks like this is a "must have":

http://www.nyethermodynamics.com/plans/plans.htm

Thanks for the input guys:
I'm aware that the hp is a little on the low side. The problem is that there are not a lot of split shaft turbines with reduction gears available in the 500-600hp range. The PT6's are too expensive for me to "experiment" with. And the next step up that is easy to find is the T58 (1100+ hp). A friend of mine has a couple of these (no starters) with gearboxes that I could get relatively cheap. But again, I dont want to "experiment" on something that pricey. The additional cost of bigger hp (bigger drives, etc.) also does not make it that attractive as a first time project.
Any other "resonably" priced turbines I should consider?

SteveDavid,
Thanks for the help, I'll take you up on it if this gets off the ground in the next few months.
I was planning on insuring only for liability. It's funny though, my insurance Co only wants to know I/O or O/B, hp, and top speed. Nothing in the questioaire about turbine vs. piston (dont ask, dont tell?). And yes a containment blanket and scattershield are a must.

Cord,
I've talked to Nye about their T-63 and T-58 projects. They would be the source for the output brake. Although over $1K seemed kind of high for that piece of hardware.

Hyperbaja,
You got to start somewhere. It's sort of like starting with a SBC, then getting a 454, then 502, then tall deck 572, then supercharging. Funny how no one ever goes in the other direction.

Gary

Whlie I'm wasting time here, This type of setup would be ideal for a 27-31' cat. 1400hp Gnome (T58?), output to a splitterbox, driving 2 bravos.
Gary

Hyperbaja,
You got to start somewhere. It's sort of like starting with a SBC, then getting a 454, then 502, then tall deck 572, then supercharging. Funny how no one ever goes in the other direction.


It is a good thing it is like this :D

Gary,Mark Nye is a friend of mine and one thing I can assure you,if you purchase anything from MAD MARK NYE the TURBINE GUY,what you get will be top drawer in design as well as manufacture. His first boat,Squirt 1 was an old jet hull with a tiny turbine in it. Not real fast but sounded cool. Squirt 2,his current ride has around 1300hp strapped to a reworked jet pump and that thing just plain hauls the bacon. 0 to 90 in 4 seconds :) The engineering and rigging of that boat are as good as it gets. If you have jet questions,I am sure Mark will talk your ear off because he just flat out loves the things.

P.S.watch for Mark on junkyard wars next spring...they build drag racing jet powered trikes!

Now, why can't the junk yard that I walk though have a handfull of turbines in them? :rolleyes: As I recall, Nye was talking of using a custom impeller for his squirt 2 boat. How did that work out?

Gary-
The Allison is a great, reliable little turbo-shaft, but as Steve said, will come up short of your goals in fun factor.

I would recommend the Lycoming LTS101 (650shp) for your project, but your investment is going to be considerably higher.
These engines run 2500 hours between O/H, 1250 on the hot section. the fuel burn on diesel (loafing) is similar to a 600SC Merc giving everything it has. Torque is instantaneous with the turbine (I think the LTS is a little over 1000#?). You will also tear that 600SC down at least 4 times in that 1250 hour period! Add that cost up over the life of a turbo-shaft- the math favors the turbine every time. There are a couple of decent turbo-shafts out of the Czechs and Russians as well, sometimes at a real bargain.

There's no voodoo science with a turbine. There's not a lot of parts trying to beat their way out like in a reciprocating engine. Some don't like the noise (I say 'what?' a lot anymore) or the smell, but after the initial investment is over, they make a piston engine look quite bad both in power output and longetivity. They look pretty cool at the docks too!

You can sometimes find good turbo-shafts in the aircraft weeklly publication "Trade-A-Plane".

Check out the folowing link, and talk to Ted. Also, don't forget that the mfg. and designer of that drive you intend to use is still around, and driving his turbine cat on a regular basis. I don't have a phone # for Howard Arneson, but I bet he'd give you some pointers if you can get a hold of him!

www.marineturbine.com

Jim

turbines/
 

no dought I used to work on power turbine segments and the weight is tremdous,one small flying piece of this would do some serious damage /I would think liabiltly factors is it really worth it. what type of material?I actually have a power tubine shop next door.

jafo,
Thanks for the input. I'll be shopping around for a turbine during the next few months and I'll see what's available and what I can afford. I'm not too comfortable with soviet turbines. I was afraid parts might be difficult to get and the manuals would be in some slavic language with letters I had never seen before.
I see from another post, you work on these things. If you've got a spare Lycoming sitting around, I'll be happy to take it off your hands.

Gary

Gary, do you have any idea of the overall length of the T58 hooked up to the pair of bravos? I want to get a Donzi 28ZXO and was thinking of doing that exact set up But I doubt the engine compartment is big enough.

Thanks
Paul

pstorti
With gear reduction, exhaust, intake screen, it's got to be over 4'. Take a look at this link.
http://www.nyethermodynamics.com/
Gary

The only problem with the t58 [1350hp] is you need gear reduction 3-1 3.5-1 or so Howard Arenson builds a box but its not cheap. Also the exhaust elbow needs to be turned, which requires welding and some donor parts. If you can talk to Mike Fusco at Fuscos rental world in Fleminton nj. he may be able to supply a motor with correct exhaust pipe. Sorry I don't know his number. The motor with a gear box is quite long something like 84'' or 96'' or so. But very light for its power. Howard A. also makes motor mounts, throttle linkage alt and power sterring pump brackets and other needed acc. He or Ric would be very helpful.
good luck and have fun
Michael

hey guys...

Gary Anderson// We will have some LTS101 cores available in another few weeks if you are still interested.

pstorti// I was looking at putting turbines in that exact boat. What I came up with was a single 1500hp t-53 with a splitter box to two drives. A bit on the pricey side for most people..... but ya gotta do the math on cost of ownership...... like the man says... Turbines win.... every time.

whoops..... you can find me at www.firestrm.ca or gimme a call toll free 866-790-7702

Gary,

I have built 2 boats using the exact same engine. The engines max HP is 317, Typicaly the engine is run at about 270 Hp. This pushes the boats I built at 70 MPH or so. I know a guy who did a cat boat with this eng and he runs about 75.
It is the unique-ness of these engines that makes this kind of boat so interesting. The crowd my boat draws at the launch ramp is awesome, people love the sound of it and the flame show out of the tail pipe. It takes me an extra 30 mins to load it on the trailer because of the questions and people looking at it.
If your are looking for an "entry level" turbine boat , I am looking to sell mine. It is absolutely turn key ready to go. e mail me [email protected] or visit my site at www.turbineboat.com
Eric

An alternative engine to consider is the Isotov GTD-350. 400 SHP @ 6000rpm, it's basically a russian copy of the Allison T63. I've seen a few for sale and they are a LOT cheaper than the T63. There's one for $1800 locally (In the UK), and there was a pair on e-bay recently for 2K each.
Kind Regards
Matt

Mad Mat
 

Hey there.... would you be able to send me the contact info for wherever you found the Isotov???

[email protected]

Thanks bro....

I found 2, one in the UK and 1 in germany, being sold by a guy in the states. Not sure if I have contact details still but I will look for you.

I quite fancy 1 myself!! :) :)

:cool: Thanks for the assist.... If you get one for yourself.... let me know and Ill give you some tips on getting it installed in whatever you have for a boat....

Cheers

Your going to just love adapting to those mertric hose fittings.

The Russian engines are a bit crude to say the least, and the QC has a lot of room for improvement also.

Bottom line is find an engine that has sufficent power to go faster than a 16 Y/O with an outboard Tahiti, else you are going to feel really bad with this project when he passes you.

Howard,
I agree with Rik, those ruski clones of the Allisons are a bit clunky. I was contacted by a guy selling a few of them and also clones of the GE T58's. I'll dig up the contact info for you.


Rik,
how have you been, ever do the T63 into a car transplant?
I'm looking to do a T53 into a 33' fountain, I have the boat and the engine. Think I'll use a #6 drive though... I feel that a single engine configuration in this boat will benifit from the weight of the drive and won't have as much of a torque steer issue. Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
I did some maintanence work on Mossmiller's old boat, awhile back, I still need to address a corrosion issue on the acc gearbox for Bob. I was saddened to hear about Ed and his mechanic, and gained some new respect for the whole idea of "bigger, better, faster".
Eric

ruski eng, cool the way the exhaust can exit at different points....

turbineboat
I would be interested on the T 58 clone. I was considering this project with the T 63, but everyones comments made me realize, it's probably to small.
I'm kind of working on a combination belt driven clutch, gear reduction, drop box, crash box for turbines or "regular" engines.
Gary

Gary,
I emailed the guy with the engines, waiting reply, they are overseas.... just get a real T58 right here.... I know several sources, or I''ll make you a deal on the CVX if you want it...
Eric
[email protected]

Hi !

Your project sounds good.
I'm loocking for a boat whitout engines for the same
project.I have six turbine engines and going to use
two of them in the boat.Do you now someone ho
want to sell a boat for turbines as exchange.
The turbines are from boeing and build by caterpillar
they have integreated gearbox with 4200 output rpm,
hp continius is 400 and 490 in short moments.
Weight is~400 pounds and simular size as a bigblock
only a little longer.
Two of them is factory overhould and zero set like
brand new.The rest are low hours.
The boat I'm locking for is around 38'-42' and no
engines the rest complete (in the dreamcase) but
everything is interesting.

Good luck to your project.

Best regards Glenn from Sweden

Eric,

The russian ones are definatly lacking in the"Planned maintenance" department. A buddy of mine worked on one of the Kamov's out west helilogging and their maintenance practices were to replace the engine once the oil leaks got to the point that they couldn't finish the flight without emptying the oil tank......

Still, that metric stuff isn't such a big deal up here in Canada.... If the price is right.... It might still work out...

Thanks for the help.

BTW do you still have the contact info for that guy you found who is manufacturing the EGT harness??