Lets Build the Perfect 540
 

Hey you guys. I was talking to Biggus today and we came up with the 540 being the most flexible engine package out there. SO lets come up with the ideal 540 with a 7.5-1 to 8.0-1 compresion ratio (can easily add a blower later that way).

1) Best Block to use: Merlin, stock, Dart............

2) Tall deck or not

3) Crank

4) Rods

5) Pistons

6) Heads

7) Valves

8) Intake

9) Cam

So on and so forth

Lets figure it out together :D

Jon

Just wondering how close is the 500 bulldog to being perfect.

2) tall deck for sure, the 540 built on a standard block uses either a 6.135 rod and 1.52 " comp height piston which makes for a short piston and krappy rod geometry 19.5 degrees,, or a 6.385 rod and 1.27 " compression height which is barely enuff for the ring pack ,, neither of these combos is optimal.

So Tall deck with 6.535 rods my 2 cents

Ya lets do this one thing at a time. Lets pick out the block first, then the crank, rods, pistons, cam, bearings, heads, valves, intake, carb and so on. Remember that price has to be a consideration on this project.

Jon

I am thinking either a merlin or dart Tall deck. I know you can get the Merlin for about 1400 bucks. Seems like a good price for a good block.

Jon

In considering price, do you want the "Perfect 540" or Perfect 540 for the Least $ spent.

I would not say the leaste but price obviously comes into play don't ya think? I mean is the perfect 540 the one you get say 500 hours out of that costs 10 grand or is the perfect 540 the one you get 1000 hours out of for 30 grand? I would say that the first is the better deal. I think that price always has to come into the equasion. I guess to answer your question we are looking for the bang for the buck :D If spending another 200 bucks on rods makes the engine that much better then that is what we do :D

Jon

Mine is a standard gen 6 502 with a .25" stroke crank. My compression is over your spec of 8:1, but I think that you'd want the higher compression to keep the cylinder pressures up. My cam is the crane 741, which I like alot. My dealer uses a cam with less overlap for a smoother idle, but I really like the lope. Hell, you could stick a 3/4 race cam in there and I'd still like it! lol I sure wouldn't go up to the 751 as it will move the power band up too high. My intake is a Edelbrock Victor Jr and the carb is a H850. The engine made max power (<600) at 5400 rpm and was still rising when the test was shut down. I do know that other builders can get more power at lower rpms with a smoother idle, but nobody can match the price. In terms of value, I'm very satisfied.

Cord my thoughts for keeping the compresion lower at this time is that these engines are going to go with me to the next boat. SO when I get the next larger thing then I want to be sure that I can put a blower on there very easily. My boat really can only handle about 450-500hp. I should be able to hit those number easy with a set up like a 540 and have those compresion numbers.

Jon

cam selection has everything to do with compression ratio.
A "planned" NA motor needs more compression and more cam.
A "planned" blower motor needs low compression and different cam.

Are we looking to build the best "do-anything" motor with big power and lifespan while remaining on a budget?

I think it needs to be port-fuel-injected (Cutler style).
Gapless top rings with low tension oil rings.
.040" squish height (zero deck).
hydraulic roller using extended length factory style lifters (no link bars).
Crank trigger ignition.
crank scraper and windage screen.
Polished and shotpeened rods with ARP bolts.
Head studs.
Valvespring retainers with oil holes for springs (a-la Milodon).
Fluidampr
Good balance job.

There: that's my list of "adds".

Here's my 2 cents on the combo I built...
 

standard GenVI 502 block - what I had to start with
.25" stroker forged crank
deburred, smoothed forged GM 7/16" rods
forged SRP's milled to 9.5 CR
GM cast iron rect. port heads - 2.25" I , 1.88" E, ported, polished, gasket matched, chambers polished, valves unshrouded, 3 angle valve job
Dart single plane, ported, polished, gasket matched
950HP Holley
EMI exhaust with 4" SS risers
Crane 169741 cam (236/244 @ 0.050, .632 lift , 112 ls, 108 center)

600hp on dyno with 600 ft-lbs. Same as Cord, hp was still climbing @ 5500 rpm but I shut test down)

I know the rod/stroke ratio is about as bad as it gets, but thats what I started with on my budget:D

mcollinstn, I think you've got it right when you said:
"big power and lifespan"
How about a different approach. Move the torque range down as low as possible to keep rpm relatively low and give it a 7.4L lifespan.
-540 tall deck (4.375 stroke)
-Supercharger 5-7 psi by 4800rpm (roots type to keep price reasonable)
-Cam designed for max hp below 5000rpm.
-Heads? Does port size and velocity matter that much with a supercharger?

Just thinking how to maximize hp without giving up reliability. Anyone think this will work? Can you make 700hp below 5000rpm on a BBC motor?

My $0.02
Gary

4.375 stroke will give us a 496 or 557 with a 4.25 or 4.5 inch piston, 540 would require a custom piston size, 4.43 probably not the way to go, , nothig wrong with a 557 tho :D

ursus
I think the merc 540 (bulldog and 900SC) runs a tall deck with 4.375 stroke and 4.43 or 4.47 piston. Too lazy to do the math.
Gary

4.375 stroke with a 4.47 piston gives 550 cid
the 900 SC is indeed 4.38 stroke x 4.44 bore 542cid

ursus
540, 542 cid, whatever it takes.
What do you think about the low rpm supercharged motor idea? I liked your rod length thread and was surprised how little piston velocity was dependent on rod length.
I've always been under the impression that long rods were used on high rpm engines to increase piston dwell time near TDC. However, is there a dowside to longer rods in a low rpm engine. I posted the question in that thread if torque varied much with rod length given a constant force on the piston. ie, shorter rods result in more crankshaft torque at times during rotation. Got a program that wil graph that?
Gary

Cord,
What cyl. heads and how much more compression?I am building what I consider to be a conservative 540. Gen 6 std .deck block
Eagle 6.385 Rods L-19 rod bolts, Callies 4.250 Gen 5/6 style Crank (one piece rear main seal), Fluidamper,SRP 9.0 to 1 pistons.Crane 741 cam, Crane 16535 hyd .roller lifters (Use stock lifter guides) Canton oil pan,Victor JR intake port matched,Canfield 310cc.intake 123cc combustion chamber ,Bowl blended& port matched,Hard anodized alum cyl. heads Manley extreme duty inconal exhaust /severe duty 2.250 intakes.Holley Marine 850 cfm Double pumper carb ,Canton offshore pan. Harlan sharp 1.7 Rockers.Anyhow are engines are close .

Rob

Howabout this instead:

4.600 bore x 4.375 stroke = 581.66.......... Naturally aspirated

If you're gonna use one of better blocks go a bit bigger........ they are harder than others (4.625 max recommended bore)..usually unless you chuck something, you can just dust the bores & you're back in business.

Ok, here goes:

Block: Donovan Aluminum tall deck block (Just kidding - CNC bowtie block, or dart tall deck block)
Compression: 9.5:1
Crank - LA. or Lunati
Rods: 6.800, carillo, lunati, or LA
Pistons: Diamond custom pistons & pins
Heads - oval port big chiefs
Valves: Some really good ones
Cam: Crower...tell them the app, let em grind one.........most likely on a 112 c/l
Valvetrain - Jesel, T&D. or Crower
Intake: custom sheet metal
Carbs: a couple of 1150 tweaked dominators

..........Ok, now times that by 2, and................voila, I'm still runnin the little 355's in my scarab !

Ok, maybe a single dominator, like in this pic ?

http://www.rehermorrison.com/

Click on the 565

rws-I was told that they were bowties, but instead of the bowtie symbol over the exhaust port there is a winter symbol. The same snow flake that's on the 454mag winter's intake manifold. They were fully ported and bowl blended. It's the exhaust port that is absolutly critical. The stock heads have a really crummy exhaust port.

I know that my engine has some H beam rods, but I don't recall the make. I also don't recall the compression ratio. I'd have to look on the build sheet for the number. I'll get back to you...

THIS REALLY WORKS 4.600 BORE 4.25 STROKE 6.385 EAGLE ROD LUNITI CRANK 565 INCH BLOWER MOTOR 8.5 TO 1 .,,,J&E BLOWER PISTONS GREAT RING PLACMENT ,H BEARINGS ,INCONEL VALVES ,SEVERE DUTY INTAKE VALVES CAM WITH AT LEAST 12 DEGREES MORE EXHAUST THAN INTAKE AS BLOWER HANDLES THAT !! 30K PLUS MORE LIFT ON EXHAUST ,,,,YOU USE A GOOD SET OF HEADS (AIR FLOW REASERCH) AND YOU'LL HAVE ALL THE H.P. AND POWER YOU CAN STAND AND THE MOTOR WILL LIVE ,,PM ME I'LL HELP WITH PISTON DESIGN ECT AND ANY PARTS YOU NEED ,BUT THIS MOTOR WILL SCREAM

P.S. MERLIN BLOCK SHORT DECK BUT TALL WORKS BETTER !!!
P.S.S/// A BLOWER MOTOR WILL MAKE MORE GRUNT AT LOWER RPMS AND NOT BE BEATING ITSELF TO DEATH LOFING AROUND LIKE A NA MOTOR AT CLOSE TO SAME POWER , AND IT WILL LIVE MUCH LONGER IF YOU DON'T DETONATE IT ,SET IT UP RIGHT , !!!!!!!!!!!!!
JUST MY 2CENTS WORTH:D :D :D

I agree once you chip out the big money for a good block why stop at 540. 582 sounds so much better and hay it is 42 more inches and that is almost the 48 inch diffrences in a 503 and 454. :D "there is no replacement for displacement" :D

Here's my suggestion:

Merlin block
Oliver rods
LA billet crank (knife edged)
10:1 JE pistons
Custom pan with windage tray's and crank scrapers
Ported Aluminum Canfield or Brodix heads
(CFE, Advanced Airflow or Sterling)
Titanium intake valves , undercut Inconel exhaust
Titanium retainers
LSM Titanium valvesprings
Ported Brodix intake
(CFE, Advanced Airflow or Sterling)
Custom LSM mechanical roller cam
.780 lift , Dur @.050 268/ 278 on a 112 C/L
Jesel keyway lifters
Jesel rocker arms
Jesel belt drive
Titan oil pump
Keith Eickert valve spring oilers
Keith Eickert lifter oilers
MSD crank trigger ignition
1150 Dominator
Keith Eickert full length cast aluminum headers

I think I would be happy with this setup in my little Scarab !

This 565 seems to be becomming more and more popular..........on the street, strip, and water.

I know that there's always been a debate on rod lengths........but I seem to notice that lately it seems like people are running longer rods - from 6.535 all the way to 6.800 (just from reading).

Sounds like it would be a good blower combo Bobby......sounds like you've had some expereince with this combo. With a good set of heads like you recommended, what type of power do you think you could see with pump gas ?

Just curious

Ratchet

My idea of the prefect 8.0:1 540...

1) Dart Big M block

2) Tall deck...10.200

3) Crank...4.25" Callies Magnum

4) Rods...Oliver +400

5) Pistons...Ross

6) Heads...Canfield 350's

7) Valves...REV

8) Intake...BlowerShop 10-71 :D

9) Cam...Isky hyd roller blower cam

Jon, I hope I am understanding you right. If you're only looking for a 450-500hp because that's all your boat can handle I would say a 540 cubed engine is way overkill for what you want to accomplish----especially a blown 540! I'm quite sure you know a requirement of 450-500hp can be easily accomplished by something like a 502 or even a 454. But if a 540 is what you want you could build that thing super cheap and it would be a real TORQUE MONSTER!

For 450-500hp from 540 inches you could get away with very inexpensive parts like:

*Hydraulic flat tappet cam
*Any non ported cast iron head---probably even some GM "peanut port" (oval port heads)
*Any aluminum dual plane intake manifold
*8.5 comp ratio (very safe)
*Inexpensive aftermarket exhaust system

With those items you could very easily obtain your goal of only mere 450-500hp with a extremely mild 540.

That's one way of looking at it. :)

Ok looks like the block should be a tall deck so that the piston can be taller and not wear funny. I have not seen pricing on the Dart blocks but I know they are probably more money then a merlin block. So lets pick the Merlin block for $1400 bucks.

BLOCK MERLIN TALL DECK $1400.00

Who makes the best crank for a ap like this??? If you have a price then please include that. :D

Kaama I see what you are saying for sure. It is not that my boat can not handle the power but it does not really need it. I am sure there will be times that it will get used :D. I like your thinking however and I guess another possibility for me would be to build the lower like a brik **** house and then use mild heads to save money there if I have to then change over the heads and cam later. I still like the idea of the tall deck block with a stroker.

Jon

I agree with KAAMA and Bobby Daniels.
Getting 500hp from 540 inches is a snap with almost any combination.
I would recommend if you are ever going to install a blower, you build a blower bottom end at least. A blower motor will make 500+hp without the blower and can make 850+ with a little boost and pump gas and run forever. I would try to buy the right parts for the blower motor the first time. A tall deck block, 4.25" stroke, 4.600" bore would be my choice if you can get a Merlin or Merlin II block, if not, 4.500" bore will do. I have seen all the discussion on rod length and I know many theories, but if you tear down similar engines, the long rod has less piston and bore wear and seems to make more power. Smokey Yunick said to use a rod that will connect the crank with the piston with the piston pin as high as you can go and still have a proper ring package. I commonly run the wrist pin with the hole up in the oil ring with no observed adverse affects. On a 4.25" stroke and 10.200" deck, I like 6.800" rods.
I also recommend AFR heads. If you can afford heads now, go ahead and buy what works best right now. The AFR's will outflow anybodys at the same port volume and their exhaust ports are, by far, the best-blowers love this!!!
Pistons need to have "D" shaped cups in them appropriate to the compression ratio you want-low compression and big boost makes more top end power, but more compression with less boost makes a better cruiser. I have run 7.5:1 to 9.2:1 on pump gas, different cams and boost, with great success. I have a cam I have made that will idle, and with 8.5:1, 5.5psi is good for about 850hp at 5,800. If you can, get a hydraulic roller to start with.
Have it made with at LEAST 15* more on the exhaust side, even with AFR heads. You may need more with some other heads.
If you build a complete blower bottom end you can still make the 500hp now and be KILLER with a blower later on. This can be done even with the Chevy head, which can be changed without too much work later. The blower cam will run just fine without the blower. A NA cam does not work well with a blower. I have done this before and if you want any moore input, PM and I'll try to help:D :D :D :D

HEY RACHET /// 850HP ON PUMP GAS IS LOFING WITH THE 565 ABOVE ,JUST LOFING ////I'VE DONE 16 MOTORS 565'S

850hp is just loafing. The point is, you can make a lot more, but at this it should last a l o o n g time!!

Cool..Like I said, just wondering..................

I'd like to build a set of naturally aspirated 565's (in the future) to replace my 355's in my 31 scarab. Have all of the ones you've done been NA ?

1800runsnew.com

prolly the best way to do it!

NOPE BLOWERS ,ITS THE WAY TO GO IN THE RPMS WE RUN 6K AND LESS AND NOT BEAT THE MOTOR TO DEATH BEING NA !
SORRY IF I POSTED WRONG OR NOT CLEARLY ,BUT I'LL HELP ANYWAY I CAN ,INFO,PARTS ,ECT.

This is what I'm running now jon 509 at 5000 rpm tq 621 hp 591 5200 tq 612 hp 606 5400 tq 601 hp 618 5600 tq 592 hp 631 5800 tq 576 hp 636 6000 tq 564 hp 648. best tq is 647 at 4400. not bad for n/a, motor

Thanks............I jusr proof read my post....I should have said have ANY of the ones been na.

My apologies, weak link between the chair & keyboard :D :D

Thanks again !

I'VE DONE A COUPLE OF 540'S AND 565'S ON THE DYNO AND NA ALWAYS GET 720 TO 740 WITH A BARRY GRANT 4500 AND 9.5 COMP AND A 288AR8 COMP CAM .THIS IS BELOW 5600RPM ,,YOU NEED ISKY LIFTERS AND COATED SPRINGS PREFERED WITH OILERS ON SPRINGS TO BE TROUBLE FREE ,BUT CHIT ITS A HOSS OF A COMBO !!! THEY WERE N/A AND AGAIN A HOLLY TERROR

I`ve been thinking about this topic. If you are going start with a tall block and you will have to purchase a crank, why would someone build a 540 when you could use a 4.5"stroke crank and bore the block to 4.5" and make a 572"???

What are the advantages/disadvantages over 540 vs the 572???

I`ve been playing around with the numbers on my desk top dyno and a n/a 572 with a single plane intake, Holley dominator makes around 700hp @5200

Hi, Biggus,
The 572 is a very good engine. The 540 is also a very good engine. I favor a 565-4.600" bore X 4.25" stroke with a 6.8" rod.
This has been a very good combination for me. You get less side loading with this combo, you unshroud the valves very well and get excellent power, especially with a blower. The 572 might be my choice NA., but with a blower the 565, I think, is a better overall, long life combo. With a blower, especially a Whipple set up, you will make more power than a Dyno 2000 predicts, especially at anything less than about 5,000 rpm.:D

Sorry I have been MIA the last two day, I have been working late. Back to the crank. It looks like the 4.25" stroke crank is the best choice, due to side load issues as were mentioned above. Who do you all think makes the best crank for a engine like this?

Jon

If I were building it, I`d go with a Callies crank.

...just wondering, Is "Hank the Crank" still in business????