Procharger Fuel Pump failures
 

Does anyone have info on the style/type of fuel pump furnished with the Procharger M-1 MPI kits originally?

I have been informed by a local builder that Procharger had numerous failures of their fuel pumps and this caused substantial engine failures.

I just want to make sure I'm not running one of these fuel pumps.

My fuel pump is a 8" long aluminum pump, flow through design.

I'm not sure if it's the same setup you are talking about, but Aeromotive had a batch of pumps out that flaked off some phenolic stuff from the inside and sent it on to the injectors, causing lean cylinders and engine failures...

Seems the cause was due to an overly restricted fuel feed line TO the pumps, which caused the pumps to cavitate and overheat.

I seem to remember that Aeromotive would open and replace the pieces that would fail with updated pieces for a buck fifty or so (i believe they would charge the same for a failed pump or a pump that had not yet failed).

The proper fuel routing would eliminate the cause of the trouble. A 100 micron screen filter BEFORE the pump is recommended. This size keeps stuff big enough to harm the pump out of it but is not too restrictive for it. THEN a high-flow waterseparator/filter after the pump BEFORE the regulator (carb) or fuel rail (injected)...

A carb motor should route the overflow fuel from the regulator back to the TANK, preferably thru a cooler first (not recirc to a tee in front of the pump).

I believe you can call Aeromotive with your pump S/N and they can tell you if it is a pre-fix or fixed pump.

Try this link. Some good information in my opinion on how fuel system needs to be set up. It is a little long but check it out.You can do a search on aeromotive pumps also. That is probably what you have but you need to check and make sure.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...ght=aeromotive

aeromotive has had some problems with the reformulated gas, the alcohal would break apart the adhesive. if your pump was manufactured before june 02 they will rebuild it with new parts that will hold up with our great gas,fuel return lines should be routed back to the tank on carb & mpi engines when it is possible

Also,
Before Aeromotive PC used to use a pump called SX. I burned up 2 of them.
The Aeromotive seems to be working fine.

DAVE

Thank you everyone
 

I appreciate the input.

Just want to make sure everything is right when I install my new engine. The last builder wasn't too good. The engine had the wrong rear seal, severely worn valve guides, loose wrist pins etc... A really sloppy rebuild. This time its done right and I sure don't need a faulty fuel pump ruining my good time!!!

If you use the Aero. use #10 lines to and from and return from the reg back to the tank. That will keep enough fuel running through the pump to keep it cool.
DAVE

What type of pump do I have?
 

My pump doesn't resemble anything on the Aeromotive site???

I'm trying to locate a picture of it to post.

I received the updated "Red" fuel regulator from Procharger. How would I plumb this regulator as the original regulator bolted directly to my fuel cooler. Does anyone have a diagram or picture of the installtion with the Red Regulator? Is there a blockoff plate for the cooler?

Pantera -

Not like this??
http://216.242.145.16/products/product.phtml?p=3

This is the one I see on most of em.

No, thats not it. Here's a picture of my engine, the pump is the aluminum cylinder that I circled. Not a great shot, I'll post a good picture as soon as I can.

You got me. I can't remember seeing one like that.

ttt

Aeromotive can provide a suitable regulat5or for you. HOWEVER, mount it as close as possible to the fuel rails and install a non-liquid filled pressure gauge @ the fuel rails. If the regulator is too far away, the fuel pressure will oscillate wildly (very bad)! Ideally it should be on the rails or within about 12" of the rails. The regulator can bolt to the Merc electronics box with a simple bracket. The regulator does not necessarily need to be in-line (ahead of)with the cool-fuel . Call Aeromotive, they will spend all day talking to you if needed. No charge. Been there/done that!!
:D

Dude, I'm sorry, but you have to stop the semi-accusations because those in the know, know the real deal. Yellow seals or not.

You blew your own boat up and that's that. When the alarm goes off - you shut down, unless you're about to be run down, especially on a high-perf motor. Anything else and the whole build goes south, as well as all the post-mortem diagnostics. It has been mildly pointed out to you before but your're not getting the hint. Fishing around until someone agrees with you does not fact make.

Hey man, I feel for ya, I've toasted a motor before that no matter what, was essentially my own fault. Yes, and it sucks. There's a lot to be said for stock motors (that's why I'm running them now - until I get the itch again). Please enough with the little off-handers here and there.

That's a beautiful and well-kept boat you have there. It's one of the best handling and running 24's I ever been in. Jo makes a great boat and stands behind them for life. The engine builder you speak of has a great reputation and the previous owner was meticulous in it's care.

I'm not picking a fight and this is not a flame, just a firendly nudge to move on.

Take care (it's an ffing fast boat) and good luck to you.

Hey Shooter,

I certainly would not fault Mark. He is a top notch individual that was just as suprised if not more than me that this ocurred.

As far as me blowing up the boat, its kind of hard to do when you notice oil in the bilge after leaving the dock in a no wake zone for the second time driving the boat . . ever! I never even got to drive the boat fast because I wasn't used to it yet and it scared the hell out of me. The oil was there from day one and I think it was there when Mark owned it, he just thought it was from an oil change when he spilled in the bilge. I believe him and thats why I didn't jump on him or anyone for this issue.

As far as "your" engine builder is concerned: I was hoping that the reputation you speak of would at least demonstrate more concern for a 10 hour engine than it did. The actual builder seemed very concerned when I could speak to him, it was his wife who never let me speak to him or passed on my phone numbers. I don't expect anything when purchasing a used piece of equipment, especially high performance equipment, but I would at least like to know the potential cause of a failure to avoid it in the future. A reverse rotation seal is a potential failure. You can read that on any seal manufacturers site. I never once mentioned the builder, even though he did not know that yellow was reverse rotation and informed me that he has installed this seal in numerous boats. Which is simply negligent.

If I blew the boat up, why would I be so damn concerned about the cause? I'd know that it was my own stupity and move on. You assertions are erroneous and unsubstantiated. I wish the cause was that easy to figure out. So tell me, how did I blow it up?

By the way, I started this thread because my engine builder informed me about Procharger having faulty fuel pumps and regulators a while back. They sent me a new regulator, and now I'm researching the pump. This thread had nothing to do with the seal or failure. Just trying to avoid a future failure. So if you have info about the pump I'd appreciate your input, otherwise say hello to Mark for me and let me gather my information in peace.

The Areomotive pump was originally designed for automotive use. The use in the marine industry caused the detachment of the internal magnets from the marine's use of alchol in the underwater fuel tanks. This additive is used to stabilize the fuel while storing it underwater.

The second cause will be the cavitation of the pump when it runs out of fuel after it reaches full regulated pressure. The pump over heats due to the lack of cooling new fuel and the flow through it.

This is why Procharger and Areomotive recommends plumbing the excess pressure back to the tanks. In my set-up, I lost the magnets after 200+hours. It was set-up with 3/8" lines and a recirculator through the cooler back to the head of the pump This was a decent set-up, but not he best. The true set-up was recommended that I change it all out for 1/2" lines with the excess being returned through the cooler back to the tanks. This does included all of it - fuel / water seperator, lines, tank switch (expensive), and the tank feed tube (inside the tank).

After the rebuild, so far far so good.... Only one season with 50+hours.... My engine is a built 454 w/ M-1 running mid-600's pushing the boat to 86.6mph (GPS) at 4200rpms and 5lbs. Had to cut the throttle because my little 21' Cole was flying way too high..... Will see what I can handle next season....

Good luck, Red Racer

What you read above & do a search on "meltdown" is all the research you need to do. Be sure to install a 100 micron hi-flow filter AFTER the pump (in between) and before the fuel rails. This catches anything "lost" thru the pump and is as recommended by Aeromotive for the original install. I burnt an engine also, that's how I learned..... it's not the engine builders fault.
Check the tiny filters in the individual injectors and you will find trash there. However, the injectors in the bad cylinders will be almost blocked. That is what did the damage. This "defect" first appearred last April (2002) before Aeromotive knew anything about it. The problem was marina's added extra "dryer" (alcohol) to absorb water in the fuel. This caused the pumps epoxy to break down. So, the fault lies not with Aeromotive or the refineries..... but with the marinas and individuals adding after market fuel additives. :rolleyes: Get the pump repaired by Aeromotive (one day turn around) put in the extra filter as specified, rebuild the engine & go have fun!! :) Welcome to the world of Performance!! :cool:

Hey guys, I thought I was the only one with Pro charger fuel pump problems. This past summer (June) I installed a set of M-3 Pro chargers on late model 502efi's in a 35ft Cigarrette. Installation was "buy the book" per Pro charger. Only running 5psi boost, 1/2" fuel lines from tanks, hi flow filter sep..Pumps are red Aeromotive a-1000's supplied by Pro charger. Boat ran great for about 10hrs, then lost starboard side engine. Tore it apart ,found 1 totally melted piston, later found the pump would not pump fuel. After costly$$$$ rebuild, was up and running again. Boat ran great until October then lost port side engine. Found 3 melted pistons. I could't understand why the engines were leaning out, I'm running 35-36lbs fuel pressure @ idle, regulator is boost ref. on intake manifold. If I bump the Idle pressure up even a couple of lbs the motor floods over and runs rough, fouls plugs. I just got the other engine back together ,lots more $$$$$. After reading this thread I'm thinking of scrapping the aeromotive pumps and regs.and go to maybe some Barry Grants or something. Any suggestions? I'm loosing my faith in Pro charger. I can't afford to make the same mistake.

Its not Procharger, its the fuel pump laminate deteriorating and clogging the injectors or jets. According to the feedback I've received, we need to install 100 Micron filters after the pumps. Switching to new pumps would solve the problem, but I'd still install filters.

Pantera24, this is just my opinion but, installing filters after the pumps would do nothing more than trap the defective pump particals and stop them from reaching the fuel injectors, now I am left with a deteriorating fuel pump that doesn't supply the engine with adequit fuel pressure , eventually a clogged filter after the pump, and most likely another melted down engine. The problem is the pump. Just my .02 cents. Also I don't blame Pro charger for the pump failure, but if they are aware that there is a major problem with the pumps they supply with their kits, they should issue a recall or discontinue use of that product. It is my experience that the average boater does not do their own mechanical work and they don't understand the technical part of it. All they know is that " it ran great before I put the blower on it." I guess I'm saying it just gives Pro charger a bad rep.

Frankie, sounds like you were NOT reading stuff on this board last summer when I went thru this experience and documented the entire thing on Offshoreonly (see "meltdown").
The problem is not a manufacturing defect. As stated above, the extra levels of additive alcohols is the culprit. It disolves the epoxies used in the pump. Aeromotive will rebuild or replace your pumps if still in warranty period or fix them for a minimal cost. The pumps have now been redesigned with mechanical pump fasteners rather than the epoxy. Procharger was aware of this problem last May....I told them about it. Therefore, they should have advised all new buyers of the problem & gotten the new pumps from Aeromotive. You can blame their technical dept. for that!! Call Aeromotive, they will work with you and do it quickly. I found them to be very helpful. I wouldn't be surprised if the Barry Grant or other pump may have had the same problem, Aeromotives A1000's are all redesigned now. They are still the best.

blown formula, you're right I wasn't on this board last summer so I didn't read about this "stuff". It just SUCKS that the consumer has to find the short commings of a product the hard way$$$$! It's OK just Break-Out-Another-Thousand ! They shouldn't charge you a nickel for an updated pump. After all the fuel pump is an engine's life line,and in the Hi-perf boating arena ( especially supercharging) if that goes under full throttle you're Dead In The Water Bye..Bye engines, instant death. But it seems to be a kick ass pump if it'll stay running, so I'll give them a call, see if they'll make it right. Thanks for the tip!

Blown Formula
 

Did you see my pump style? Here it is again, I was informed that it was a boost pump, but it is the only pump in the fuel system. What pump are you running and do you run a single pump or main/boost set up?

Thank You,

Kirk

Kirk, that is definately NOT the Aeromotive A-1000 pump. Your pump looks similar to the stock Merc. EFI pump. Looks like an inline booster pump. Did it come with the M-1 kit? The M-3 kit comes with the red A-1000 pump which replaces the stock Merc unit, the system still uses the fuel cooler, but replaces the stock pump with an interface. Also the A-1000 pump has -10 inlet & outlet ports. Hard to tell from your photo but your fittings look like 3/8. (restrictive) . I'd use the larger red pump. Frank.

Frankie,

It is the booster pump form the M-1 kit. However when the engine was rebuilt, they removed the other pump and this is the only pump in the system. It had been running fine with this pump. If I upgrade, what brand and model number is the Red Pump? Also, what fuel pressure should I see after the regulator? I'm running a MPI system on a 454 engine with the
M-1 Procharger.

Thanks to all the help form everyone, hopefully the knowledge gained here will help me avoid nasty situations by installing the new engine and fuel system correctly the first time.

Sincerely,

Kirk

Aeromotive A1000, mine ran 45# @ idle, boost compensation ran it up to about 60# flat out. The regulator procharger gives you must have the TOP fitting plumbed to the plenum. The bottom is a fuel dump to the intake in case of a regulator failure and connects to the air intake @ the charger inlet.:D
I sent you an answer to your pm......

NAY !!

The 100-micron screen filter goes BEFORE the A1000. Keeps trash from hurting the pump innards. Apparently, an A1000 will pump gas with 99 micron sized trash just dandy.

You use a high flow 10-micron paper cartridge separator filter AFTER the A1000 to filter out the stuff that will clog injectors, needle seats, and carb jets... This filter goes AFTER the A1000 but BEFORE anything else.

Boost indexed regulator very close to fuel rail/carb OR after fuel rail/carb. Return line thru a fuel cooler and back all the way to the tank.

Old "meltdown" thread shows link to Aeromotive that addresses the filter issues in great hairy detail.

Correct.....I rest my case!! Good Show McCollistin.
george

Fellows, I guess Aeromotive gives a different recommendation to people in Kentucky. The tech guy who was great to talk to recommended fuel tank......high flow fuel/water seperator like the Keith Eikert model......fuel pump......aeromotive stainless steel inline filter....regulator....fuel rail.....return to tank! This is what I did in the fall. What do you think? Why does procharger recommend 35 lbs. fuel pressure at idle?
Eric

No, it's not folk from KY, it's just guys with Eliminators that get the bogus info...

here's the link you need

http://216.242.145.16/products/content_p.phtml?pk=10

blown formula, I have the idol pressure set @ 36lbs ( read from liquid filled mechanical gauge on reg.) if I try to run 40lbs or more, the engine floods over and runs rough. How do you run that much pressure? I did have the ECU re-programmed but the injector pulse should only be lengthened on mid range and top end??? Also the boost compensation is on a 1:1 ratio, thats 15lbs. from idol to W.O.T on your set up. How much boost are you running? Are you checking pressure with a mechanical guage or an electrical mounted on the dash? I don't care who makes them, the electrical guages are NOT that accurate ,always off by a few lbs. or more. Your reply is appreciated. Thanks, Frank.

I have the same question about how you can run the base fuel pressure that high. At 38 lbs. I have a black transom and wet plugs. Also, thanks for the link McCollinstn, are you not running any kind of water seperator? Maybe, they consider the Keith Eikert unit high enough flow to suit there specs. By the way I am using a gaffrig electrical fuel guage with the sender on the port of the boost sensitive fuel pressure regulator. Thanks for the help I want to get it right.
Eric

blown1500 What kind of spark plugs do you run, stock ACMR-43T's or something colder ? I like to NGK'S 5673-8 in Roots style blower motors with iron heads.

separator AFTER A1000.

Same here seperator AFTER the pump.
I run an idle pressure of about 43 psi, But I had my ECU reprogramed to NOT use the warm up mode as an enrichment. Procharger recomends 35 psi because they know without the stat in place the ECU stays on the warm up mode and makes it rich. Didn't like that set up. Also didn't like running with out a stat, Up here the water doesn't get that warm, and when it does, it's usually late July. So I run a 120° stat with the warm up mode programed for it.

Claude,
Just purchased one of Pro Chargers water temperature signal conditioners. Any ideas how this will effect required fuel pressure? Very rich at idle with 35-38 psi and no conditioner. Anybody use this?
Eric

Hum?? Thats new to me Eric. Is it posted on there web site. I went there and couldn't find any info?
Claude

the 45# @ idle I run is set with a mechanical gauge @ the fuel rail. There is also electric gauges on the dash.. I am not certain what Arizona Speed did to my ecu, but below 42-45 #, it does not idle well. My transom is still pretty clean even @45#. Better a little extra pressure than run lean when flat out also. Tell me, did either of you guys install EGT sensors & gauges??? If not, I recommend it highly!!
I am, like the others running a "pre-filter" before the pump & a water seperator/filter after. If I knew a year ago what I know now, I'd still have $10 K in my pocket!!

If I understand correctly, the signal conditioner makes the ECU think that the motor is running at full temperature so the rich mode is disabled. This is what allows you guys to run better fuel pressure and have clean pipes.