Reworking upper on a 502 - $4600!!
 

Okay - just got quoted by my local shop for totally reworking the upper end on my 502's: new intake, carb, cam, valves, springs, seals, rockers, some head work...all to bring my POS 415hp up to 550hp.
Cost per engine: $4600.00 including labor and dyno time.

Thoughts? Comments?

Some history on the engines: Got screwed over by an a$$hole from this board who basically sold me crate 502's and passed them off as something else. Now I'm just trying to get them to where they need to be to get installed. Let's niot dwell on how I got suckered.

Of special note, included in the quote are "custom" Dominator carbs @ $895.00 each.:confused:

I'm not an engine guy at all - so educate me!

Craig,
Not sure but I don't think you will need both engines dynoed. Seems like if they do one and get both carbs setup on that one you don't need to do the second. If true, dyno is typ. $500 so make sure they aren't stick'en you with an extra 500.

Get more specifics on the head work being done, i.e. guides, seats, milling, porting, intake match, etc.

Rick

Thanks!
Ateco in Waukegan gave me the quote...those guys have been holding onto my engines for a year!!:mad:

um....i dont think you need any custom dominator carbs if your only making 550hp.... :confused: I'm assuming you are not having the rotaiting asembly torn down? and even if you take out the carbs, $3705 for a new intake, carb, cam, valves, springs, seals, rockers, some head work and labor seems WAY high!!! Whats he charging for Dyno time too??
The last engine i had assembled (454 hot tanked and bored .030 over, NEW crank, ALL NEW valves/springs/rockers, 3 NEW rods, 8 NEW pistons, gaskets...etc) only set me back $3800....i think a second oppionin is in order here G...

Sounds high to me.....the motors aren't in the boat right? so its an dis- assembly re-assembly job right? Sound like about double what its worth to me!!!my.02

And if there are any mechanics reading this and need a job - I'd be more than happy to discuss letting someone rework these engines.....

Craig,
If this is the same guy that you have been having all your engine delays on I would back the truck up load it and run! You have suffered enough on this deal.

Seems like Wally may have someone locally that you can trust.

Rick

PM Blown1500 he seams to really know his S^%$ he's in South Carolina I think......where are you?

G Force for that kind of dough you should be talking the complete engine not the upper end. You need to get some other quotes that guy is way over priced. Rick G.

Why would you need a Dominator on a N/A 502. I would think 800 or 830 cfm carbs would be sufficient.

These are rough guesses only:

$345 Dart Intake manifold
$360 Stainless one piece intake/exhaust valves
$325 Hydraulic roller cam
$375 Hydraulic roller lifters
$300 Roller rocker arms
$140 Valve srpings
$25 Valve Seals
$650 HP800cfm Holley carb

Total cost for only ONE engine/PARTS ONLY: $2520
Add the other engine and it comes to: $5040 (parts only now)

That does NOT include LABOR! If they are saying they can do BOTH engines (parts/labor/dyno test) I would say that almost sounds too good to be true! You said you had two 502's but didn't really clarify if that price is for one engine or both, but because it sounds too good to be true lets assume that $4600 is parts and labor for only one engine. Assuming you don't need new valve guides or machining for spring cups or anything else, here's a rough guess on the LABOR list:

$100 Remove pullies/dressing, heads, intakes, cams, lifters
$55 Degrease/disassemble heads
$125 3-angle valve grind
$34 machine for valve seals
$80 surface/mill heads
$250 bowl/pocket port heads
$50 assemble heads/set spring heigth
$45 degree in cams
$175 install heads, check piston to valve, intakes, carbs, dist
$100 remount pullies/dressing

Total LABOR (for ONE engine only) : $1014

Dyno time: $500 per engine

TOTAL cost for ONE engine including: parts/labor/dyno test is roughly $4034 (tax not included on the parts)

He's not too far off, but I may have missed something too! Get a parts and labor sheet from him with everything itemized with all cost of all parts, cost of machining operations, labor on assembly/disassmebly, etc.

BTW, I doubt you'll need 1050 Dominator carbs-----in my opinion, that's way too much of a carb for what you need it for---800's or 830's are good enough for what you're doing. :)

1050 should be fine without being worked.

Hell i'm makeing 550hp on my (mild)blower engine with a stock 1050dom and everyone keeps tellign me its too much carb for the engine. and i woudl ahve been fine with like an 850 or 900

Thanks guys - you've managed to put things in perspective for me and give me at least an idea of pricing/parts needed. After getting it up the a$$ on the long blocks I'm tired of getting screwed over.
But I gotta get in gear and get these things done - G-Force is in the shop getting a total cleaning from the sinking. The 454's are being taken out - so now's the time to do the engine/drive swap.

Kaama - I've got 2 x 502's that need work - and the guy said something about a "5 angle valve job"...
I was kinda thinking the same thing regarding the carbs - I was thinking 850's would be more than enough to do the job. The guy kept talking about what a great "fuel curve" he was getting with the Dominators.

I would think some about those dominators

oh yeah FYI my engine cost me $5500 and it was all new internals on a 30 over block add in the blower which i alrady had $1500 (cost me $1500)

Custom carbs.
 

A Nickerson stage 5 850 runs $895 and a stage 5 1050 runs $1095. For your motors a stage 5 850 will be perfect. For that kind of money I would go with some 310 Dart Pro 1 heads and sell the originals. More HP for less in my opinion. I have always bought my own parts and supplied them to the builder for him to put together. It is fun shopping and I know I am not getting ripped on parts. If you get the Nickerson 850 it is really unnecessary to dyno because he really gets them right on out of the box for your motors. My opinion!! Good luck!

I GUESS NICKERSON LAYS HIS HANDS ON THE CARB,AND MOTOR AND SAYS THIS WILL TAKE A 89 JET ,!!!!MAN HE MUST BE GOOD !!!NO HE OVER ALLOWS FOR FUEL ,JUST THINK WHAT A NASCAR OR NHRA TEAM WOULD PAY HIM IF HE COULD GUESS THE NUMBERS FOR THE JETS AND CIRCUITS ,HE'S IN THE WRONG JOB !!

NOT BEING A SMART A%& JUST TRYING TO HELP

KAMMAS RIGHT AND 850 FROM HOLLEY IS FINE AND THE PRICE FOR THE WHOLE JOB IS HIGH !!

SHOP THE PRICE THRU SOME MENTIONED ABOVE ,WOW THATS ALOT
GOOD LUCK !!!!!!:D :D :D

Both of you are right on the carbs,but he has built enough of then to know what engine combo's and location{sea level or do you live in Denver}to get the jetting and power valves almost right on the money, Hell I can take a box stock holley new out of the box, and make some minor adjustments and it will run ok on a lot of engine combo's. but if you are after every ounce some dyno time is called for

G, talk to Keith Brommelcamp. I believe the name of the business is Water and Wheels and is off Lilly Lake road just south of 176. I think the town is Lakemoore. He does alot of high perf work and has a good rep for being honest.

G-force,
It's sounds like this dude is WAY overcharging.
Here's a story...
Customer comes into my friends shop with a 311 Formula with a hurt (carb) . He want's to go faster.
So what he ended up with is his rebuilt shortblocks with new intakes , carbs , and cams. I believe a little port work and new Gil exhaust with all that and the labor I believe it only cost $8000.
These were not dynoed BUT the 311 went from 66 mph to 75 mph on GPS . We are guessing about 525hp.
So I think $4600 sounds a little high.

YEP AFTER 30 years I CAN GET VERY CLOSE BUT YOU AND I DON'T CHARGE 850+ DOLLARS ,,,,AND NEITHER SHOULD HE TO HAVE THINGS CLOSE ,I LIKE MY STUFF RIGHT AND THERE ARE TO MANY VARIABLES TO GET 850 WORTH OF CLOSE FOR ME ,ABOUT ANYONE CAN GET CLOSE ENOUGH NOT TO BURN DOWN THE ENGINE !

MY 2 CENTS WORTH ,YOU GUYS HAVE ADD IT

NOT TRYING TO ARGUE JUST HELP SAVE SOME BUCKS

I have used 4 of Deans carbs and they were all within 2 main jet sizes of being perfect. Idle good with no black soot on the transom!!! We are talking severly over cammed motors here according to the OSO crowed. My little 496 has throttle response like fuel injection with a "to large" stage 5 1050 from Nickerson right out of the box. Worth every penny of my $1095. Only my opinion, based on my experience. By the way most stock Holleys will run leaner than a Nickerson at WOT. I see guys with stock carbs getting sooty transoms and start pulling down the main jets to fix the soot problem. Man are they way off!!!:p

Never use more than a 3 angle valve grind on a marine motor. With a 5 angle grind the contact area is too small and the valve will overheat.

Yea, keep the seat width at .100, .075 minumum for valve cooling.

Yes,,,,what Tinker said on the 5 angle valve job !!!!!!!!!1

JUST DEPENDS ON THOSE VARIABLES AGAIN RPM ,COMP.,ECT....YOUR RIGHT MOST STOCK CARBS DO RUN LEANER THAN DEANS ,PERIOD AS YOU SAID IN YOUR NEXT TO THE LAST (ABOUT) SENTENCE VEN STOCK YOU SAID YOU SEE GUYS PULLING OUT JETS SO IF THEY START LEANER AND THEY GO EVEN LEANER ,YOU SEE MY POINT AND SPELLED IT OUT FOR ME !!!!
I'M GLAD YOU ENJOYED SPENDING 1096,ON THOSE RICH CARBS!1

JUST TRYING TO HELP !! VETTE USE WHAT EVER TRIPS YOUR TRIGGER !!!!!!

GONE TO THE DYNO TIL LATER BUT I'LL CALL DEAN FOR HIS HEALING POWERS DON'T WORRY I WILL NOT NEED DYNO OR WEATHER INFO ,,,,,SUUURE :D LMAO

THIS IS NOT WORTH ANYMORE DEBATING ,HAVE FUN !!!!

I am not really debating this, only stating some positive feedback about carbs I have used. I am not trying to sell anything or trying to negative sell anyone's product. I am only giving an example of some good experiences I have had using Nickerson carbs on HP motors that didn't go on the dyno. Some people on this board are in the marine business and I think that is very helpful, but many times their helpfulness is actually only a negative selling tactic which really doesn't work with smart consumers. As for $4600 it seems a little high to me. However if he is promising results and dyno numbers to verify them and if he stands behind his work it may be worth it. I know you could get it done cheap, but as we have all seen on this board in many cases you get what you pay for. Good luck!!

LOOKS LIKE YOUR YRYING TO TELL YOUR BEST GUESS AS TO WHY YOUR CARBS WORK AND I'M TRING TO PROVE THE CONVERSE !!
I'M IN THE MARINE BUSS. BUT NOT TRING TO SELL MY WORK JUST TRING TO SAVE SOME PEOPLE SOME WASTED MONEY
AS I SAID I'M GLAD YOUR HAPPY ,BUT
WELL ENOUGH SAID ,GOTTA GET TO THE DYNO ,WASTED ENOUGH TIME ,PLEASE FIND A TRUE TUNER OR ENGINE BUILDER ANYONE ,ANYONE CAN HIT AND MISS UNTIL IT RUNS

HOPE SOMEONE BENIFITS FROM THIS ,JUST REMBERED THE INDEXING THREAD ,WOW

I think the price is high for what you are getting, shop around and deal with a reputable builder.

Keith is a real great guy - a little slow - but really nice to work with. He's the one who dressed my 502's....
And who do you think does HIS engine work?....the same guys who have my engines!;)

Okay...so if YOU guys had to rework a 502 upper end - what parts would you put into it? I want around REALIABLE 550 h.p. out of my (current) 415 h.p.
I'll skirt the carb issue for the moment - but I do need an intake manifold. So...cam, spings, valves (or do I just purchase a new set of heads), intakes, rockers, etc....

Again...I'm the village idiot when it comes to engines. I have no problem buying parts and giving them to the builder if it will same some cash. I have WAY too much into these engines right now - it's getting to be a grudge f*ck at this point - I just want them DONE.

If that's all your looking for is 550 hp, your stock heads with some porting will work. Stay around .600 lift with a hydraulic roller camshaft.

G-I'm no expert but a 1050 is more carb than you need. A Holley HP830 will flow plenty, have better throttle response and idle better. CPPerformance has them for $620.
For Intakes, go with Dart single planes or Edlebrock Air Gaps. The Darts will probably make a little more HP up top. About $300 each.
Cams see this thread & go with the 141's
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...threadid=42146

With some head work and good exhaust you should be right in that 550hp range w/o a problem.

BTW, what are you doing as far as exhaust????

A Merlin single plane intake has smaller runners than the Dart. Probably better suited for a low RPM boat motor.

I would listen to JimV and Griff, they seem to be on the same track I am on. I like the Air Gap Edelbrock, 830 carb.
JimV seems to know more about boat heads than almost anybody and he does this for a living:D :D

Okay - finally got the parts list/pricing. Anyone have an e-mail address I can send a scanned copy to - just to take a peek at and perhaps comment on?
He's at:
$3410.00 Parts/tax
$2217.00 Labor

Hmmm...looks like he forgot about $1000.00 per engine when I spoke with him last. Now it's up to $5600.00 PER ENGINE.

I must also be one of the lucky few to have had good experiences with Dean's carbs too. Funny how two shops that dyno'd my engine said the carbs were "right on". Must have been a fluke. Come to think of it, there must be a lot of flukes around here.

JUST TRYING TO HELP!

Hey G, let me know if you would entertain shipping those a little distance, as I have a great machine shop and assembler I can vouch for. If you like, I get get you two together on the horn and discuss options and costs. I guarantee he won't BS you.:rolleyes:

I had him do all machine work and short block assembly on my 540. I handed him all the parts and I walked out for $1400. Dean helped me every step of the way with final assembly, WITHOUT SAYING IT. This shop never got the not invented here syndrome and knew of Dean well. Went back later and spent all day on the dyno for $500 and found 95 Hp hiding in the ignition system. ;)

Last but not least, I suggest going with your gut instinct. If you don't feel comfotable with the shop, LEAVE. Even if you do, watch and ask. If they get defensive, LEAVE (with your ****).

G-Force,
e-mail or call me. If this is for one engine, I'll save you a small fortune and make MORE POWER!!!! 704-574-4020 I'll even sell you the parts at much better prices and get you the right stuff!!

Brad Perry
 

Brad Perry, where were the 95 ponies hiding? Was it a fluke? Did the first dyno get the carb(s) to work???
Just trying to help!!

Looks like Blown1500 is going to have my engines in the next week or so.
Going to collect my engines ASAP and send them down to him to get worked on.
Thanks for all your help/advice guys....

A Dominator is a P.O.S. out of the box anyway. I had to send two back because of defections, 1 didn't even have jets in the secondary. I know from experience on a previous 502 solid roller motor that it is too much carb..an 850 will work much better. If you look at what a comparable Demon runs to a Nickerson massaged Carb there is not much cost difference. The main difference is Barry Grant does all the mods Dean does before they ship.

I gave BG all the info I could for my 632" (large solid roller) tunnel ram motor and they nailed my set-up, only thing the motor wanted was 2 MORE jets all the way around. It idles @650 in gear, never loads or hesitates anywhere. Bottom line is do your own homework and know what you are paying for. Maybe I have a fluke set of race Demons. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Another factor to consider might be how much an engine builder charges to tune and or modify that "stock" carb that might need some addnl attention. Most people don't work for free.;) ;)