buy XR's or upgrade B1's?
 

I have some 175 hour 1995 Bravo 1's that have been running showers and HiPerf lube their entire lives behind some 502 Mag carb motors. The previous B1's were 1991 models and I lost three of them before upgrading to the 95's and their better clutches (and added showers).

Now I am getting ready to send 750 horses thru them.

I have an option to buy a pair of nice XR's for $9,000. Should I upgrade my existing 1995 Bravo 1's or should I buy the 2002 XR's.

Will the XR's be stout enough or should I add some upgrades to them before running them hard?

Will I be just as well off to upgrade my B1's ?

Thoughts?
Opinions?

Buy the xr's, I have a new one for 6,000 obo, but I only have one

MC, Talk to Mr.Gadgets he would be a good one to ask. He modified his and can tell you the ups and the downs about it.

Check with Curtis at Billet Marine. He has a nice XR upgrade kit that uses the B1 u-joints. You will have to install the gimbal upgrade kits if you put XR drives on, if your gimbal SNs don't start with OM. I think the upper housing near the u-joints are thinner on the XR drives.

If these are used drives, be sure to check the upper gears very closely. Several people, including myself, had problems with the teeth on the gears. We think Merc had a bad run of them that hit the market last spring.

There is a long thread talking about this around December. I think the thread topic had something to do with gear lube.

IF YOUR BOAT WEIGHT IS TO HEAVY,XR'S MAY NOT HELP YOU WITH THAT MUCH HP.

I would buy the XR's...I know someone who's pushing about 700+HP trough some on a 42 Tiger with no issues.

I still "think" I want to stay with a Bravo-based drive, as opposed to a BMax or PSI.

I'm just trying to figure out whether I should get my std B1's sent to Teague or somebody versus the XR swap.

Boat is around 9000 pounds with full fuel.

"...Several people, including myself, had problems with the teeth on the gears. We think Merc had a bad run of them that hit the market last spring".

First I've heard of it. Are you saying used last year as in the 2002 Bravo drives or older ones?...Where can one read up on these problems and how to detect them?...

What is the cost of the upgrade to the Bravo?

Here's a link to a thread that talks about the XR gear problem.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...ighlight=rbtnt

I have the first Bravo Curtis at Billet upgraded to XR and have run 650HP through it for the past two seasons with no problems. Its on a 29 Warlock. I'd definitly check Billets upgrades out. His Bravo to XR conversion ran about $2600.

www.billetmarine.com

MC,
I would take a serious look at buying the XR's. Of course I would pull the top cap to look at the pinion gear. If you look at that thread you can see the wear in the pinion gear. I had the same thing happen to my XR upgraded Bravo. It wore out the pinion gear but not the driven gears.

If you look at the upgrade, you must also consider the lower prop shaft upgrade. Merc does have a package to replace the parts. What I am saying is compare apples to apples. The XR drives come with all the pieces in the upper and lower. If you talk to Curtis, who is very knowledgeable, see what the cost is of doing all the changes that you would get by buying the drives. The XR has the steel tower already in it. So your drive needs that too. I dont know what Curtis includes in his package, but so long as you know what to ask for.
If you have a heavy boat you do just the upper and , well it might be better to have the heavier shafts in the lower.

There is a lot to consider, I have been researching this and will be building drives in the future, if you would like to discuss it.. give me a call at home, I can maybe shed some light on it. 616-335-8446

Dick

Gadgets,

Been waiting for your input...

I've about decided to go with the XR purchase. I did find out that the drives I am buying DID have the wear issue on the pinion and have been rebuilt with new parts. Not upgrades, but standard XR parts. I know the seller well, and these have been run behind "turned up" 575SCi's for 45 hours before failure. I am assured that the parts that went in it are not from the soft run of gears.

I have looked at billet marine and max machine's websites and understand the different upgrades. It looks like I could puke more money into my B1's than the XRs are going to cost. I can also sell my B1's since they are good reliable undamaged drives (or maybe I should keep them around as spares?).

My only worry was that I would receive a lot of advice to throw some upgrades into the XR's as well. I do think I will replace the top caps with Max billet caps cause I still think the cast crap cap is a real weak point. Billet marine has a good cap that is cooled internally with water passages, but I feel a solid aluminum cap with the fins on it is stronger and will cool equally well with a top shower. Other than that upgrade, I think I'll leave the XR's alone unless any of you guys think I should do more...

One thing you can do is use the new XR cap from Merc. It has fins, a steel tower, and extra oil cavity above the tower. I just purchased one from Sterndrivespec. It includes both bearings and Oring and is about half of the others in price. All you need to do is check the distance of the thrust shim to case surface to make sure it is the same and bolt it on. All though I have been doing pinion centerline measurements and adjusting the shims to get proper gear mesh and some people dont. But you should be able to just switch caps. One problem is the new Merc Cap has a steering boss on the tail end of it. Used on the ITS system. It can be cut off, but it is added alluminum to remove heat. So I will leave it on until the outdrive police make me cut it off. :)
You can also get studs from Merc, but if you are running a drive shower, you may only need two them. I mention this because I have a couple extra now.. and looking for some longer ones to mount the shower with. The new cap is much thicker than the stock one. But looking at the cap itself, it is a quality piece, much stronger than the stock Bravo cap and it is priced right..
Talk to Kaama, you need to get different gimble bearings and a trim limit kit to use the XR's on the standard Bravo gimbles. Merc I think has a kit.. again talk to Sterndrivespec... 315-676-2979. He as been the best with pricing the Merc stuff..

Dick

Gadgets, is the new XR cap still cast aluminum? I don't feel good about a cast piece. I'm not wanting to spend unnecessary money, but will pay extra for a billet cap. NOW, if you mean the steel tower is steel in all the places that absorb the bearing loads, and that the steel piece is trapped in the cast cap, then I feel better.

As far as the ITS lugs, I thought the ITS attached down LOW on the drive..??

MC,

I bought I Teague Platinum XR complete (less gimbal and transom pieces). It's got the upgraded vertical and prop shaft. The top cap is also a billet piece with additional width. They're about $7k and you'll need a gimbal bearing kit to convert.


Regards,

Mark S.

Personally,
I would have went with Billet marines XR upgraded bravos.
$2500-$2800 for the upper (lowers never break) as opposed to the $7000 + for a XR .
I've also heard that the XR case is weaker than the standard Bravo because the machining they did to fit the new not needed huge u-joint assy.
I have a XR converted Bravo at the moment (not Billets) , a friend and I did 4 of them , so far only two have been tested
(720hp 565) and have had zero problems. We have around $2000 in each upper. On my own one I will be adding Billet's top cap/cooler.

Just my opinion

26,

Okay, if I told you that I could buy the freshly rebuilt 2002 XR's for $4500 each then would that change your decision?

Billet Marine quoted $3400 each for the uppers. That's a good $600-900 more expensive than your numbers. At your figures, I'd have been more inclined to consider the upgrading.

I plan to run studs on the back cover and the top cap so I can inspect with each lube change without worry of stripping the threads out of the aluminum cases.

(seth enslow should definitely know about scars, but how would he know that pain goes away? I've never seen or heard of a time that he was not horribly wounded...)

MC.. the cap is a cast unit with a steel tower installed in it. It is much thicker than the stock Bravo, but not a billet piece I believe. I was told it was billet, so I may be wrong. If you like I could maybe take a pic.. It does have six holes in it so you can bolt into the back cap, but I am not sure what the ITS back cap looks like. Let me see what I can do with the camera.. give me some time to get it figured out.. and you can see what it looks like..

Dick

Mc,
Go to the Photo section, Members Galleries, I posted them there, but they are pending approval. So I am not sure how to search for them, but I named them
XR ITS Top Cap 1,2,3.

Let me know what you think.. the pics aren't that good, lighting, lighting, lighting.. :)

I found pictures on some website that showed the ITS system. Looks cool. BAM also shows them on his parts lookup. Seems like the top cap was $185 and the back cap was $265 (don't know why the back cap was so much).

MC ,
I guess I thought you wear paying $9000, I was reading without thinking.
I would agree and buy the XR's then have Billet do a few upgrades on them. Like his bearing kits and the upper cap.

Mc what are the part numbers for those caps. I think the prices are reversed?? ..

Dick

Yeah, it was weird. I'll go back and get the #'s.

Rear Cover Assembly XR std #12717A1 List $232.25 Bam $198.12
Rear Cover Assembly ITS #840839T1 List $195.05 Bam $166.42
Rear Cover Stud #16-57932 (3/8-24 x 1.75" SS) List $4.90 Bam $4.78 (2 required)

Top Cap (Cover Assembly) XR std #92068A12 List $207.05 Bam $176.67
Top Cap (Cover Assembly) ITS #840838T1 List $263.50 Bam $224.87
Top Cap Stud #16-840851 List $14.05 Bam $13.69 (4 required)


75832T1 U joint std List $49.95 Bam $46.65
862132T U joint XR List $115.95 Bam $98.97

This is all stuff right off his website. Don't know if he offers OSO discounts or not.

ok.. I see.. is there a pic of that back cap?? I might add that to make it that much stronger..

Yeah, there's pictures. It's in the "parts lookup" section.

I heard that it's the TOP CAP (not the back cap) that is the weak link.

Yeah, Kaama, but Gadgets is talking about a new ITS top cap that is set up with two extra bolt holes to secure it to the new ITS rear cap for added holding power.

I'm not sure that the extra bolts will do much unless you want to use the lugs on the top cap and back cap to attach a tie bar. If you were to do that, the extra bolts would add rigidity to the REAR cap I think.

But one thing's for sure - they won't HURT.

Thats what I was thinking.. the more rigid the less flex..etc.

MC,

If you do get the XR's I might be able to use your B1's Let me know what you might want for them.

Hey, great.
What's your timeframe?

I'm bad about starting things late, and I don't want to hold you up. I work well to deadlines, though, so don't be shy, just let me know on the time..

Price? Dunno. B1's/1.36:1. 390 hp is all they've seen, and they act fine, no shavings in the oil, etc. Showers on them their entire life (they are both replacement drives - I learned my lessons on the originals). One not-bad chip on one skeg from the forklift truck (I can fix it if you want). I can surely get you some pix. What sounds fair to you?

email me if you want: [email protected]

%&^$#*( Of course they have to be 1.36 That means new props or change the gears. Man I wish they were 1.50. This is the pile I am rebuilding now. Would be nice just to bolt on and go. Let me way out the options.

What I meant was that I didn't think a stronger rear cap was neccessary---just the stronger top cap. (?)

Russ: I got a set of 23 Mirages on them now. I reckon they could stay with them. What props do you have to trade right now?

These Mirage 23's/1.36:1 drives run 72-73 with a light load on a 1991 F311SR1 with 502 Mag carb motors (415/390pshp).

For "whatever" reason, the boat was always a mile-an-hour faster than an identical 1990 311/502 boat with 1.5:1/25p. Goes against conventional logic, but was also a dead-heat with a 1991 292SR1/502Mag boat with 1.5:1/25's as well. Boats in question were owned by friends and we even switched drivers on occasion and ran them. Same result.

Let me know.

Kaama

Of course the top cap is the best bang. The rear cap with its extra holes to the top cap probably won't do that much for drive integrity or top cap stability, but it definitely won't hurt.

Any time you have a large access hole in a casting, it can be a flex point. The stouter the cover and the more secure the fasteners, the better chance you have of reinforcing that opening. The top cap fits the bore which acts as a filler to reinforce the case since the bore will try to eggshape as the case distorts. The rear cap is a flat mount, which does not work as well to prevent distortion, BUT if it secures via two studs to the top cap, then it can offer some measure of additional reinforcement.

I do agree that the amount of reinforcement is not very significant given the geometry of the case and the expected thrust loading.

Aren't the top caps for strengthening left hand rotation drives only???

Nordic

Yes and No.

The billet or steel bearing tower is a much stronger anchor for the gear and shaft bearings in regards to the top gear (LH rotation drive). With a stock cast cap, the thrust load on the cast bearing tower can approach the failure strength of the top cap. This is indeed the most critical weak point on a LH drive.

BUT, the aftermarket caps offer more than a secure bearing anchor for the top gear. They typically offer a thicker structure to provide more stability to the Bravo case itself in reducing case distortions. They usually offer fins or water passages to dramatically increase surface area for heat transfer to cooling water when used with showers. Thye are also thick enough that high strength studs can be used to secure them without worry of cracking the cap from the extreme hold-down force of the studs and fine-thread nuts and hardened washers.

Teague and Imco are now recommending the cap upgrades for both sides.

But YES, the need is FAR greater for the LH drive for the upgrade.

Mcollinstn,

I still have some serious thought as to replacing the drives keep me informed on your situation.
I have 25 Mirages worked over a bit.
Russ