Blown 502 Mag efi Makes 1000 HP?
 

If I were to install new injectors, port the intake and plenum area and use a fast or haltech stand alone EFI controller can I make 1000 HP? The questions are : Is the intake too restrictive? I question this because of only spinning about 6000 rpm. Does anyone have any experience using this manifold and throttle body with higher boost ( 7-12 Psi)? Thanks Greg

( Ya think Dustin might know?):confused:

doesn't the mpi have cast internals???

No 502 has cast componets. Only the 454's, mainly the ones referred to as 7.4 Liters.

Ron

If you can make it... How long will you make it?

my b

Im talking about the std 502 Mag efi unit not the 454 mpi or the hp500 efi. The area of the throttle body is about the same as a 950 holley, and I have all of the stuff fuel rail sensors etc. I would just like to up the boost to 10-12 lbs. Greg

Hey Greg, you tryin to make that Eagle fly.
I don't know if I would trust the stock crank or rods for that much HP. Are yours after market? I think you have forged crank and pistons since you are already putting out around 800HP, right.
Sounds like a fun project.

I've run 11-12 lbs boost with this engine and made 744HP with all stock components. Just need a big intercooler and blower. With all the right parts-cam, heads, etc., could see 8-900HP. 1000HP would be tough but could get very close with a 540 and all the right parts and 10-12lbs boost.

With race gas and enough boost, dang near anything can make 1000hp. Just a matter of whether it will hold together or not.

Kid down the road had a 348 Ford motor showing 1000 on a dyno. Had VP race fuel and close to 30 pounds of boost at 7000rpm. I think it stretched every head bolt and main cap bolt in it. They had planned to drop it in the car right after the pull, but they have gone back inside it for mysterious reasons...

I did a 454 Mag with Brodix heads. The intake was extrude honed at AZM. Running a 2000 CFM throttle body and 6 PSI boost it made 789 HP @ 5500 RPM. I don't think the stock bottom end would last for very long if you ran it hard though. This engine has been together 2 years, but spends 99% of it's life below 4000 RPM.

bobl,
I have a 502 mag thats been balanced and blueprinted, Have the brodix bb2 plus and a 741 roller cam. Im running a Nickerson carb and am happy with the top end but there some issues at idle and some midrange inconsistancies. Thats the reason for the EFI thoughts. Do you have the 502 efi intake with the side mounted throttle body? I have some reservations on that lower intake. How much did extrude hone charge you. Like you I spend most time under 4000 rpm also. Im only at 5-6k for short bursts. I cant go 90 plus for long on my boat. It would be built for drag racing. Did that 2000cfm throttle body come from AZM ? Did it fit the manifold without mods. How big were your injectors? Greg

LOL :D:D:D

Was the reason Hiroshima!

Hi Greg:

I think that manifold was designed originally by Lingenfelter to develop low end torque especially for use with the Blackhawk drive which needed the help with two big surface piercing props below water at low speeds. Other than the throttle body orientation the MPI and HP500EFI are similar and make similar power all things being equal.

I'm biased of course, but for that kind of HP I would use an aftermarket EFI based on a single plane intake and FAST ECU. I'd get help from jspeeddemon and others on programming. There was some talk about an intercooler/carb box that would work with this layout.:D

Tom who was talking about that? We could cut the top in half.........and then......... HaHa. No really I was trying to think in tomcat terms as far as that goes. The real deal is that I have one of those and it has the injector rail and all and I wouldnt have to buy a manifold or throttle body, but I could start to learn about the EFI stuff before spending more cash. Greg

HPjunkie, it's the sidemount whipple kit, with their 2k throttle body. It uses the stock 42 lb. injectors, with a piggyback ECU and 2 injectors in the throttle body. Whipple has since done away with this setup and gone to the top mount with larger injectors. My customer had the extrude hone done previously so I don't know exactly what he paid. I think around $400. He originally had added the BB1(rectangle) heads, small cam, intake work, stainless marine exhaust and reprogram. He gained about 7 MPH and was not happy with the results, so we went back and added the Whipple....he's happy now!


Bob

Can it be done, yes, but it's not really easy or cheap. First, you need to send the intake to Az. speed and extrude it, cut the runners. Second, 42 or 50lb injectors will not be enough, even at 80lbs of fuel psi, 1000hp is out of reach. I have some 65lb'ers which are the biggest available in a high impedence. With these, you'll still be hard pressed. You could put 2 more 65lbers up stream if you have to run the MEFI ECU. So, you can go with 8 96'lbers if you run a FAST or Accel DFI system but then your fuel rail will need to be modified or replaced. Third, your gonna need a big intercooler and big centrifugal SC, probably need 11-12lbs of boost with some really good aluminum heads, 540ci, big cam. A turbo would make it easier, probably would only need 9-10lbs with all the good parts. We don't have a SC that can mount sideways that will flow enough air for 1000hp.
Dustin

Dustin are you saying that I would need 96lb injectors for 1000HP? I figured 72 but someone mentioned that since there is horsepower loss due to belt drive I needed to support 1200 hp and he/ they recommended 83 lb injectors. At 83 or 96 can they idle ok? Another person suggested that I should run 2 sets($)!? 1 for idle and the other for top end augmentation. I am currently running a procharger M-1 that I picked up on the board with a blow thru Nickerson. I am interested in learning about efi and have this manifold and machine shop service handy. Now I can only make 7 psi in the intake below the carb at 6000rpm without over speeding the blower, so I know Illl need a bigger blower but was hoping to not have to spring for a throttle bodie and intake as well as the computer and complete fuel system all at once. But if it won't idle steady and the fuel rail won't work or be too restrictive at 6000 vs my carb then maybe Ill pass. Even with a strip dominator with a 2000 cfm 4 barrel style throttle I am concerned about the big injectors not working right. I like the profile of the blow thru it fools a lot of people with a stock sun hatch. I also have a connection for 2 turbos. Whew thats a lot to say what do you think

Dustin, I'm sorry but I emailed you last night before you replied here about the 2000 cfm throttle body. Thanks for you help. Greg Maurer

Greg I have been reading your post and you have received some excellent input. Holley makes a manifold that already has the cast in injector bungs, with a 4150 flange, Probe industries makes a throttle body, to mount your throttle body to, and I concur that you need at least 83 lb injectors and really probably should go with 95's. I have this setup on a M-4 with 12 lbs of boost and it is definitely a powerhouse. I can't see why a 502 cubic inches would be that much different, but the reliability would be a significant concern at this power level, related to crank, rods, and pistons. your margin for error, ie:lean, detonation, would be very tight. I will give you more details if you like. I run the FAST computer on mine, very user friendly.

Jspeed,
Thanks, how many cubes are you running and what horse do you estimate? I'm concerned about getting a good map going before melting down. Can those maps be shared like on a cd or floppy? Are you running a wide band O2? Does probe have a website? Are you sequential or batch? How do you idle with 83 # injectors? thanks for the reply Greg

I am running two 572's (1010hp) that were built as blower motors. After blowing up a few I did find out that much horsepower needs some serious internal componets to live. You are setting yourself up for heartache chasing maps, injectors, intakes and ignition. Your base engine will not make it. Start from scratch with a bigger cube engine and build with the right stuff. Everything needs to be overkill. Fuel delivery is very important. Hugh fuel lines, pumps and return lines. Drivetrain needs to be state of art or problems will arise. Cooling system? Oil system? Intercooler? Now you need to look at your outdrive........

I am running 548 ci which is a 4.530 bore with a 4.25 stroke crankshaft. I used 95 lb injectors, and have the WB O2 sensor, also use exhaust pyrometeres welded in to two cylinders. My system is bank to bank which is between batch and sequential, you can share files easily by email. FAST gives a base program to start and tune from there, it is not that complicated. I don't use IAC, and with my cam using a 114 CL, my idle is strong. With the FAST I can dial the timing up at idle which really helps. I cannot see any negatives to the fuel injection and blown combo at all, in fact it is much more tuneable than carbureated. It's like having a carburetor with a whole bunch of circuts instead of 2 or 3. It is just newer and people get afraid of what they don't totally understand, I think.
What type of exhaust are you using. Several others on the site are running fuel injected FAST and ACCEL systems and seem to be pleased as well. Probe industries has a web site, what you need is a 90 degree elbow for a 90 mm throttle body to a 4150 manifold. How much of your system are you planning on using?
I bought my throttle body for $200.00 off of Ebay. I imagine if you bought everything else you could use your computer, and I think they make a wiring harness for driving low impedance injectors with your computer.
However if your diving in, you might be better to sell your system and purchase the aftermarket system completely, rather than mixing and bandaiding.
I tried to dyno the motor three years ago and wasted a futile day trying to get the Procharger setup to work blowing thru the carburetors. I eventually got it close by placing the motor in my drag boat and tuned it till close, then installed in my Eliminator. Ran well but sooted the transom awfully bad. This combo still soots a little at idle but not running judging from the water mark.
I'll will guess it is 1000+ but can't really say for sure. But it is a 550 ci bbc with Canfield 355 that flow 385 on intakes and 280 on the exhausts on the bench, 12 lbs of boost. Someone put that in a Desktop dyno using a .655 lift symmetrical lobe design with [email protected].
Limited time this year due to lots of rain but I will tell that this motor pulls like a monster from a 70 mph punch, actually having to feed the throttle sparingly to keep it from breaking the prop loose.
Hell just let me sell you the whole deal and I want to move up to a twin engine boat anyway and build two of these monsters. It's ready to go all top to bottom, with just a little tuning left to do on the top end.

Yeah it gets a little stupid trying to tune it on the top, that's exactly why it is not completed. I have it plenty fat and just need to make several passes to lean it down, will always leave it a hair rich for margin of error and air changes. I agree with you about plug readings and WB O2's. I also use a pyrometer in the exhaust, so I triple check my data. First time I've ever had a motor run almost identical plugs in every cylinder, due to not having problems with fuel droplets suspension, becasue there is none. Especially when your cramming 12 lbs of boost thru that high rise intake, darn thing looks like a tunnel ram with a single carb top anyway.

Drag racing setups in boats and cars is some what different than offshore boats. What works for 6-9 seconds will not always work for hours under hard load at 4000-6000 rpm in a boat. A common theme seems to be 540CI block or more. 1000hp need a total setup to live from the crank to the prop. Mercury racing gets big bucks for their package with a number six and 1000hp for a reason.

Yeah you know that is definitely true, but Mercury, Cobra, sterling, or anyone else doesn't have anymore reliable parts in their motors than I have as well as many others on this board. The difference between them and do it yourselfers on this board is that they have a known combo that works, from repetitively building an exact package. As well most have a dry sump oil system. I feel real comfortable about my 4340 crank, billet rods, JE blower pistons, a nice set of aluminum heads, 12 quart oil pan, Jesel rocker system, Inconel exhaust valves, severe duty intakes. Further I built mine for around mid twenties including my Procharger and fuel injection. Mine has not one drag racing part in it, however it accelerates like a drag car in my 26' daytona. I certainly would feel comfortable holding mine wide open for more than 10, 15, or 20 seconds and have done it many times. It's just that it is fast enough that it's hard to find somewhere to do it where I boat. You can build a combo that is on the edge, maybe only reliable for short blasts, but that is the difference between forged and billet stuff. The reason Mercury and others charge so much for their hardware is they have a lot of overhead, and they are setting the industry standard. There is less than $25,000 of hard parts in any of their combos, add it up yourself. They may chrge 50,75, or $100,000 for motor and drive combo. However you can build a comparable copy of their stuff for half the price, if you have mechanical ability to do it. Their isn't any black magic in their valve covers, just good parts. My intention is to duplicate my combo on to another motor and put them both in a large cat, so I can hold them both wide open for long hauls. Nothing holding you back but dollars and sense.

One more very important thing that wasn't mentioned???
Which gen 502 are we talking about??? I have had problems with the gen 5 at 7 + psi boost blowing the head gasket where the vally wall is thinest around the missing head bolt??? thus resulting in milky oil.... I didn't have problems at 6 psi and 50 lb injectors for 300+ hrs. But once I switched to 7+psi of boost, I've blown that part of the gasket twice in 40 hrs:( .
This winter I'm swaping for the next gen block with the extra head bolt:cool:
good luck

An old engine builders trick is to take a punch and dimple the area around the cylinders and between them to keep the head gasket from walking. I have as much as 12 lbs of boost and never blown a head gasket yet.

Mine is a gen 5 and have run 7 psi for 2 years about 120 hours and newer did the gasket. Keep in mind that I'm at top rpm/speed for 10 seconds at a time. That is also what I was referring to when I mentioned a "drag" motor. Some of you guys want to run 20 miles wide open at a poker run. My 25' boat goes about 94 mph and It doesnt do big chop or other wakes so I cant stay up there long, I do get there quick and usually win by the time I hit 90 mph. Most time is cruising from place to place at 25-4000 rpm. I do have the big chevy parts forged crank, 7/16 rods with new bolts, and Je pistons all balanced and blueprinted to spec. In an offshore application I would like better parts also.

It is not always how FAST YOU GO but HOW LONG YOU GO FAST!!! :D :D

Sorry M BAD

Good point! I like that! Thats what I'll tell her. Greg

Greg we got off the subject a bit, I will be glad to help in anyway that I can for you to achieve your goal. Let me know, I can take pictures, make a list of parts, etc.

Lets see a pic of your setup JS. Your throttle body is a since blade or is it set up like a 4 barrel carb, primary & secondarys?

Jspeed, Your right got off the subject a little. This fall I plan to remove the procharger box and run a bonnet like the guy with prochargers in the parts for sale section. (with the carb) Then its time to pull it and fix the oil leaks and reconfigure. It seems that the ultimate would be twin turbos, intercoolers and throttle body(s) with the fast system type of computer. I know a couple guys running the Haltech unit and making huge numbers with their turbo setups like this. An easier but not necessarily cheaper route would be a big vortech or procharger, TOMCAT intercooler, throttle bodie ( is it IE or Y) And EFI computer. The second route would be no exhaust work but less power than the turbos. I'm a little of the turbo thing because of the exhaust work and the torque hitting the drive at relativily low speed VS. the belt driven blowers spooling up at around 4000 rpm or so. I heard that those turbos pull like crazy just off of idle. I just happen to have the 502 efi intake and throttle body and started this thread to find out wether I should spend any time on it or just take my time and buy the other stuff. How many cfm is your probe body? This is my current setup below. How far from Rockford Il. are you, Id like to check out your boat if your close, if not the board will do. Greg

Jspeed I have EMI's with ss risers, what intake are you using? Fuel rails? Greg

Tomcat will jump in soon, but on your setup you have 5 elbows and the intercooler expansion and contraction. Going to the 'hats' are not coast guard legal and will have a problem of leaking out the throttle shafts. I would price the tomcat IC and box with using your SC. I bet you would be very surprised with the results and not even have to go to the vortech SC. Can you say 100 HP increase!

Junkie

No bonnet!
Boat Go Boom!

Speed Demon, I agree with you 100%. My point is the same as yours, that a known combination is the only way to go. Mine are also custom engines using a setup known to work. My thoughts are bolt-on parts will not make a reliable 1000hp with a 502 mag.

Greg, TJ- I will work on getting a picture of my setup to post and you will get an idea of what you can doing away with the box. I actually have my Procharger off the boat and ready to send to ATI for repairs, but that really isn't the important part of the setup, it still mounts in the same location.
Greg-I had customn made fuel rails made by
EFI specilaties for about $200. out of bllet aluminum, they are really nice. My throttle body is a 95mm single blade, this thing idles real well with the blower on it, ok without blower. I use Lightning headers on my boat, honestly I don't think that is all that important, have seen projects where exhaust didn't make a huge improvement on blown applications. Intake is a Holley fuel injection manifold, new for this year,looks just like a Dart intake. Real tall at carb flange, you actually look straight down the intakes, the flow has to be phenomenal.
Brad- I am with you, I am glad we agree, that means we are both real intelligent,hahaha. But 1000 hp on the 502 parts won't take a whole bunch of punishment, before it caves in.
I assure you can build all the power you want without screwing around with turbos, using fuel injection on procharger, ask TJ he has tried that already, he now has a procharger.
OK, I'm excited already, when do we start picking out the parts? I love a new project, even if you are 500 miles away, I am in Charleston, WV. Let's build it big and mean, and take no prisoners.

ttt

Can't believe I never saw this thread,as some of you have seen I came close to making 1000hp using modified 502 mpi efi system on a 540 w/m3sc (944hp/962ft lbs tq) but just like this thread thats old news. I'm looking for a few more hp from my combo this time around of freshening it,I'll post anything exciting,Smitty