1977 30' Scarab Hull Stability
 

Hello,
I had previously been offered a Fountain 10 Meter hull for around $13.5k and was considering it, but have recently came across a 1977 30' Scarab with hull bracings in the $2-4k range. I previously had a 88 30' scarab, and had it in up to 4' seas, but nothing bigger. I was wondering if either of these boats (Especially the 30' scarab, due to the price) could handle bigger waters - I live in Southern Florida and would like the posibility of going to the Keys / Tortugas / Bahamas - These waters can get rough - my first Scarab was a DEA reclaimed boat, so I know that these boats can go in open water, but I don't want to be calling the coastguard. My other concern (posted several weeks ago) was hitting 100mph. I know the fountain will, but i am not sure about the 77 Scarab. I guess 85 would be good enough if it can't, considering the low price. If you suggest other hulls, don't bother suggesting over 34' because I can't accomodate that length. Thanks for any advice,
Paul

The 30 scarabs are tanks and if structurally sound (no stringer or transom rot) will handle any seas. I think the 100 mph is not going to be easy on that boat, if even possible.

I can remember boating in a 30' scarab back in the seventies. This boat had trs drives and I think that was the big limiting factor on the speed. That boat would only go about 75 mph with twin 454's . I can remember that the boat handled well in tight turns with the bow trimmed down. But whether you could make it go faster, I don't know. Good luck.

100 not a chance in hell. maybe with massive HP but hittinga 100 was NEVER considered by the designers of that hull.

The 10 meter Fountain will also take BIG hp to see 100.

Neither the Scarab hull or the Fountain hull (that you have mentioned) is a good platform to build a 100mph boat.

Either hull will make a fine boat but you need to have a professional take a look at them to determine if there is any evidence of rot or structural issues. You do NOT want to buy a hull and then have to pay twice again to have it made sound.

30' vee hull Scarab or Fountain? Either will make the Bahamas runs in mild conditions. You don't want to be in a 47'er in bad conditions.

Speed? Crate motor 450hp 502's and Bravo drives will push you around 67 to 77 in those hulls, with the Fountain being lighter and thus faster.

This 30' Wellcraft Scarab runs 100+MPH
OSO member ben perfected

Fountain is a much better built boat. I have had both, an old fountain and an old scarab years ago. Can't compare the two. Fountain is much faster with equal power. A Fountain back then was hand laid in the mold. A Scarab was what they called a chopper gun boat, sprayed in the mold. Quite a difference. Fountain is my vote. Just my $.02

LS

10 Meter Fountain

30' Scarab II

not saying it won't go 100, with enough HP you can make a sail boat hit 100. but i'd think think there are some much better hulls to start with if your looking for the century mark.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...threadid=66185

ther eis some info on older fast scarabs. It was mentioned that an older 30 runngin 85 is "really wild"

Thanks for all the replys; part of the problem is I am trying to do the impossible: A fast, Cheap, Stable boat that can handle blue water. Therefore I have to compramise. Cheap is a requirement, so the fast and stable will probabily take some cuts. My old scarab did 80's with two rebuilt 454's (but those were built way too agressive and didn't last long), so I was thinking something in the 540-600 cid range with forced aspiration, but that will be a topic for discussion in the future. I don't want to cut every ounce out of the boat for a few MPH, I want a boat I can overnight in with the wife. I just registered to be a Platinum member a few hours ago; I will be able to download all the pretty pictures when that kicks in.
The only reason I am so interested in the scarab hull is the low price. The back end is cut for TRS drives the seller tells me, how hard would it be to get a bravo to fit (Or would I actually be better with the TRS?)
Thanks for all the information,
Paul

The old TRS drives are a more rugged than a standard Bravo. Jury is out on whether they are more rugged than a BravoXR.

TRS requires transmissions inside the hull which pushes the motors forward a foot. This can eat up space you need to service the motors. Not sure about the space in your engine compartment.

If you are after bluewater reliability then look into some PSI pulse drives. Bulletproof. Cheaper than Bravo XR's if you're buying drives and transom assemblies...

540's or 572's won't need supercharging for 650 reliable hp (which is more than either TRS drives or Bravos can handle for any significant length of time).

You keep mentioning stability. Most of the performance vee hulls you would otherwise consider will share the 8' beam of the two hulls you are looking at. I am having trouble following your thoughts on stability.

Ride? Comfort? Those are dependent more on length in a bigwater veehull - and the related ability to "bridge" wave crests. A 30'er is a 30'er. It's going to pound you more than a 42 but less than a 27.

If structurally sound, the Scarab hull and the Fountain hull will both be "safe" from the standpoint of whether they will break in half or not in the ocean.

Now, if you are telling us that you plan to drop a pair of supercharged 572's into a 30' deep vee and run it wide open thru big water, then I'm not going to feel comfortable telling you that it will stay in one piece.

Course, your broken back and collarbones will more likely than not convince you to back off the sticks before the hull breaks in half so I reckon it's a moot point...

Thanks for the information. Regarding the "stability", I currently have a 26' Chris-Craft, and that thing rocks and pounds infinitely more then my old 30' scarab ever did, so I asumed if 4' could make that much difference the 3' between the scarab hull and the fountain 10 meter (around 33 feet?) might have a similar effect. Maby it's operator error / hull design / lack of counter-rotation / something else, but I presumed it to be the length difference.

With the horsepower, most of my operation is on the moulth of the Caloosahatchee river in Florida and the Gulf of Mexico - close to the shore going up and down Florida. My primary concern is being able to go fast in these calmer waters (80-110 mph, depending on hull / money). However, it would be nice to be able to make occasional trips to the Bahamas and the Keys / Tortugas, albeit not at 80-110 mph - just a way to get the wife on the boat, etc. Even 30 would be fine in medium-large seas, as long as the boat wouldn't roll / flip / break in half.

I would love to be able to get a hull in the 35-45' range, but my current lift and dock would need to be redone, not to mention the increased cost of a hull that big (and the gas consumed to power it). Besides, I couldn't store a trailer that big at my work, where I have kept trailers before.

The biggest constant is the length of the hull, due to the said constrictions. It would be easier for me to get #6 drives and supercharged 572's instead of TRS's and 454's then to get a 38' hull instead of a 30'. The more expensive drive would be essentally transparent to my wife, whereas the bigger lift would involve heavy machinery in the back yard....

With the TRS versus bravo drives, I have never mounted an entire drive assembly, my old Scarab already had drives. The holes on the back of the scarab hull I am looking at are for TRS (so the engine mounts probabily are too) - would going to a bravo or those PSI pulse drives involve re-glassing the back ?

Thanks again for all the replies I've gotten so far
Paul

The fountain 10 meter doesn't have a lot more hull than the Scarab.

If speeds over 80 are in your plans, then you have no choice. The Fountain is the better hull of the two you mentioned.

The Fountain, though, (correct me if I'm wrong) has a delta pad and a notched transom. The notched transom reduces the running length of the hull. The delta pad makes a flat pad on the rear section of the hull. The shorter running surface will not bridge waves as well. The delta pad will make "landing" off of waves much less cushy. (be aware though that a "flat" attitude across wave crests will not jar you as badly in either hull).

#6 drives will run you in the neighborhood of $35,000 each. I cannot imagine that you would decide it to be wise to invest that kind of hardware into an elderly hull such as these. A SSM3 is a much better and more affordable option.

Any drives other than TRS will require complete plugging and reglassing of the transom (which is no big deal).

Side to side stability of these hulls will be better than your 26 simply due to their increased mass and more wetted hull surface (longer lifting strakes will dampen side to side better). In any vee however, countersteering will be your best weapon against side to side nausea.

m

My 78 Scarab would go 72 with twin 420's that i had put in. I ran the old log exaust manifolds. Better exaust probably would've seen 75. The boat weighed 6800 dry. Not too heavy for boats of that era. It handled like a wheel barrow because of the cheap stock steering. If you want to go fast in anything, you have to use hydraulic steering.

Going 100 in this boat wouldn't be too hard. a pair of 800's, a pair of speedy 3's, and a set of hydraulic steering. All of that stuff is not cheap and you would probably find it in a used Fountain 10 meter cheaper. There are a few outfitted like that floating around.

That's an old boat. Expect to replace all electrical, hudraulics, etc. And the scarabs were known for transom rot. The amount of hp to get it near the speed you want will cost more than you expect,.
My advise for a 100mph stable boat.
Get a 30' Chris Cat. Solid construction, fast hull, reasonable price. Twin 500-600 hp motors with TRS or SSM IIs or IIIs should get you there for a lot less than any V hull.
Gary

Thanks,
The biggest problem I've had with going to a cat is the lack of cabin. Even the smallest V hull has a place to store gear / sleep / etc - but I don't know if even the biggest cat's have cabins. I don't want a houseboat, otherwise I wouldn't be posting here, but I do want something where me and my wife could sleep / eat / etc - when the need arises. If anyone knows of any other hulls for sale that meet my requirements - deep V 30-34 feet, fast, and oceanworthy, please let me know - the only reason I've limited myself to the Scarab and the Fountain is those are the only hulls I've seen for sale. I've gotten several other suggestions for hulls on my previous post, but finding one for sale is challenge. I also don't want to spend $30k or $40k on a complete boat just to re-do everything.

Does anyone know where I could get a SSM II / III drive (other than the classifieds)? I've found numerous places selling rebuilt / used / new Bravo's, but not any SSM drives. I'd prefer used / rebuilt drives, for obvious reasons. I've checked the classifieds, and there are some SSM III / IV's for sale, but no price given. Would XZ drives be comprable? There is a pair for sale in the classified section for $7k, $3500 per drive seems like a good deal to me. There are also some #5's on there, but I don't know if i have $18k for just drives.
Thanks,
Paul

If you honestly plan to run 750 hp thru drives in the ocean, then XZ's are NOT the answer.

SSM3's are around, and if you need some with somebody to stand behind them contact sterndrivespec or Marc at Bam.

I believe the Chris cat was available with a cabin.

The 36 Talon/Hustler has a cool midcabin behind the rear bench seat.

The 32 American Offshore(is that the right boat?) does too.

The 42 MTI has a Hyuuuuugge Cabin. Queen bed. Standup bathroom with makeup mirror,etc.. Dual side by side Barcaloungers in the "rec room".

Can't get one for $40k though.

There are some sweet boats out there ready to go for reasonable money - just ask Cuda.

42' is kind of large, but if I could sell my wife on it (See "Flipping boats" post), I might be able to pull off the extra $$ and the lift changes. Still a back-up plan as of now, as the canals where I live are only 50' (+/-) wide, and it would take more time / money / hastle. If it could accomodate two / three people sleeping with some sort of sitting / eating area, it just might work. when you say over $40k, you're talking just the hull, right?

It's a good suggestion, but for the short term, the Deep-V still looks the most promising (and affordable)

Thanks,
Paul

My friend had his 42 MTI listed for sale for a while, but is now keeping it. It was listed for $489k.
2002 model with 575SCi's and BMax drives...

You can maybe find a nice older 30' cat with twin 454/502's for high $50k (and that would include motors).

This would be a far better platform to build a 100mph boat from.

high $50 with motors could be an attractive option if it had a decent cabin. The stock motors would allow me to get started without killing myself (See other post), and the cabin would make long distance/ overnight trips possible, but the increased cost would delay me some. I was eventually hoping to add things like A/C and whatnot, a Deep V would obviously have the room for this, but I don't know about a cat. I guess I need to find some pictures of their cabins. 100mph even when I have the capability would only be a temporary occurance, due to the engine straign and the heavy fuel use.

Thanks,
Paul

Hi Paul,

Please allow me to jump in for a sec. Let's first take a look at what you're trying to do from numbers standpoint... 100mph in a 30-something foot v-bottom will take some juice: 700-800hp, IIIa's or V's, at a minimum, 6's for good reliability. Since you're looking at an older hull, it should be beefed up as well, possibly new tanks, maybe even blueprinting the hull.

So you're looking at $10-15k x2 for power, 25k for drives/gimbals/transom work, (60-70k if you go 6's) 5-6k for transmissions, 6-8k for decent steering, and 20k in misc rigging stuff (you never can tell what creeps up). Then you'll want to paint it (15k) and the Mrs will want the interior/cockpit to look pretty (10k).

So where are we now? We're in the 85k-100k range for a sweet 100mph boat, and one that you've put your heart into.

My point? At this stage in the project, you're trying to save yourself 9k between the 30' scarab hull and the 10-meter hull. This is about 10% of the overall cost of the job, and IMHO, there IS NO comparison between the two. Heck, a simple brainfart somewhere in this project could cost you 9k. ;-)

A good friend of mine had a '88 30' Panther with 365 Mags. and Bravos. It ran 70-72.

I have an '86 10-meter with HP500's and TRS's and I get 80mph. TRS's are power HOGS, so I'd be in the mid 80's with Bravos.

The main difference between the two? One word: re-entry. My Fountain sounds solid as a rock re-entering off of a 6-footer, whereas the Panther had a pretty distinctive hollow thud pounding into the waves. This likely has to do with the major differences in hull construction that has been discussed above. The bonded deck-to-hull joint is a major structural advantage, too. My friend sold his Panther soon after I bought my Fountain, and is now looking for a more solid ride, probably a 35 Cafe Cig. Now those are decent hulls, but with the added weight, you'll need 1000SC's to get you to 100mph (just a guess).

Your other choice, take that 85-100k and find yourself a mid-'90's 35 Lightning here on the board. You could be heading to the Bahamas in it tomorrow, vs the year or three it could take you to put one together yourself.

In either case, post pictures! We all enjoy seeing projects happening, or guys showing off their new rides.

Good luck,
Brian

just though, think about resale. will you ever be able to sell your 100k 100mph 25 year old boat for anywhere near what you put into it? doubtful.

The resale value is a valid point, but part of it is the challenge, and knowing it's done right. My current boat is in less than perfect condition see "flipping boats ? high speed turns" - I would hate to get a hull that's high performance and has great powerplants but a screwed up electrical system or whatnot. The other advantage is I can do it in stages. I pay for everything cash, so doing some here and some there has it's advantages. I could get the drives and the engines and put on the blowers later. The cabin could be done much later, since it's not the highest priority (for the sort term). Painting would be done long after everything else., it doesn't matter what someone thinks of your boat if they're behind it. I would rather invest more in drives and engines, and less in the paint and interior. I DO need a functional cabin, but not an ornate one.

Right now I have around $10k to spend in addition to whatever I make on the sale of my Chris-Craft, So either way it'd be three years for me to have my 100mph boat. (So I'll have between $20k and $30k for stage 1)

Resale value is a good point, but with any luck I will have this boat 10+ years (wife won't let me get a new one for at least that long), so by then I wouldhave gotten most of my money's worth out of it.
Thanks,
Paul

A 100 Mph is achievable with any scarab hull. Just will take more Hp. Just make enough Hp and that solves anything. The other question is, do you want to do 100 in a 30 foot scarab? I know I would. Hell, I would strap a big block to 16 foot starcraft and give it a whirl. I wouldn't't recommend it though. If your set on a 30'scarab I would try to find a newer one like a panther. the 10 meter fountain is also a good hull. Its just a "reggied up" old Excalibur. They are both time provend hulls.

hahahahaha "Reggied up" ROFLMAO! Reminds me of the posts about the evolution of boats...Caveman named " OG", jumps on floating tree....... Someone else cuts off limbs.. Less drag... notices tree goes faster.... names floater, Later-OG.... or .. .LOG . hahahahahahahahahahaha

PaulR,

If you lose interest in the Fountain plz let me know. I would be interested in it.
Speaking of which, I know where there is a 35 Mistress that is as strait as an arrow, just needs power and drives. It's at Banyan Bay Marina in Lauderdale.

Bryan

lucky strike

man thouse are GREAT photos post more. :D
Did you notice that the trees in the back ground got bigger but your neighbor never got rid of there tank? :D
Paul yes if you do not go for the fountain it would be great to share a photo and info on it so someone else can build a good HOT ROD.
Brian talk to us about the MISTRESS. Man that might be right up my alley. Rag's

Hey Paul - if you're open to a Fountain 10-Meter Executioner, the '84 (250 original hull hours, '89 factory cosmetics) I've been seeking repowering advice on has 0-hours on her set of rebuilt SSMII's ($8k invested with receipts). The 454/500 hp's are in dubious shape but with only 25ish hours on them, they have lots of good gear that could be transfered to 502's/540's. She ran a strong, smooth 75 mph on flat fresh water rigged that way. The 3x axle aluminum trailer has never even been titled (2000?). Bottom line, with new engines and minor TLC, the boat is very respectable and you could be in the water and overnighting within weeks, not years.

I'm ASKING only $20k NOW because I genuinely don't have the time or inclination to use her once the 502/500hp repowering is completed. I'd like her to go to a good home. She's presently awaiting engines in Storm King, NY.

Anyone???? I'm willing to listen to reasonable offers just to not have to poor more money into something I can't enjoy.

e-mail me privately at [email protected] or call 914.473.3014.

Love the strongbad icon ragtop.
Wow, thanks for all the responses. For everyone's information:
1) My origional fountain offer came from my post
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...threadid=63509
from the user turbineboat. However, he has not gotten back to me, so he may be using it for a project again

2) The 30' scarab came from ebay,
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3646200130
I bid up to $1000, but did not meet reserve. The seller was going to send me photos, but I have not heard a respose in several days. IF anyone is interested in this hull, contact me and I will give you all contact information I have.

3) I am very interested in both the 35 mistress and the 84' 10m Executioner. What's an approxomate price on that mistress? If it's on the high side, I might make an offer on the fountain. Lauderdale is a lot closer than NY, but if it's really expensive I am not interested. mshea, I might e-mail you when I figgure out which direction I am taking, I currently have three good options including yours. If you have any photos please post them. What state of the repower is the boat in ?

4) I found the following on Ebay, and am also seriously considering it, especially if no one bids on it:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2453020503
This is a good option because it is already running at a decent speed, is 100% assembled, and allows me to upgrade. However, I won't be able to get as fast as the fountain or the Mistress

Thanks for the replies,
Paul Rohrbaugh

Hey Paul
I think that I have the stinger sold. I sent all of the paperwork to the buyers lender on Fri.
Thanks
Josh

Paul,

The Mistress is a 1979. I looked at it personally and it is very nice, original cond. Some teak in the cockpit, the cabin is loaded w/teak. The asking price is 15k, but they need to get rid of it. I would have bought it except we are about 2k away from each other. I know, I know but its all I've got in cash.
call Frank 954-650-1761
or Bill Sr. 754-234-5506
It actually kills me to circulate this as I would love to buy this boat. Realistically, it won't last until I get more$.

Bryan

Thanks to everyone for all their advice on hulls. I have decided that with all the respective costs, building a boat from scratch will wait for several more years, if I ever attempt it. I found a 30' scarb on Ebay, and when it did not sell, I made an offer to the seller. I have sent off the deposit for this, which will cost me $20k with delivery to Florida.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2453858863
He says it runs 75 GPS, and 940HP could possibly produce even more in a boat that size.
Seller claims to have a recent survey, which I should be getting shorly. Anything I should look for (potental problem wise)?
Thanks,
Paul

Paul,

I bought Mshea's 1984 10 meter. It is cleaner than he described it. This site is the only site for go-fast boats...

I'd love to see some pictures of how it went and how it looks :)

but yeah, I can't really rebuild a boat at my house, and something that runs as soon as it hits the water but still has upgrade potental seemed to be the best option.

The person selling the 1977 30' is still selling it, if anyone is interested, I can have my son put the pictures on his website as soon as he gets it back up.

~Paul

Transom/stringers

paulr -- You stole that boat. Know why the exhaust tips are turned down? Because that SH!T is gonna be noisy! That looks like a dry exhaust system (Hardin) on there. When you crank it up it is gonna sound like a WWII bomber warming up. Look it over closely, but that price is WAY CHEAP.

Paul,

Nice boat. Dry exhaust ehh? Sweet, that'll sound awesome.

On my 78 the hull and deck were not glassed together. Just screwed. The hull was very flexible. I don't know if later Scarabs were done differently. If his hp numbers are correct, the speeds sound about right.