Jetting/tuning For Procharger setup
 

I am giving serious thought to buying an intercooled M-3 Procharger for my TCM/Merlin 509.
I don't want to have the added expense of a custom calibrated carb (like Nickerson's) unless it's absolutely necessary.
My motor came complete with a "Hardcore" (Heh! Heh!) 870cfm carb (by World/Bill Mitchell) and according to the dyno sheet, it has in #74' main jets all around. That sounds lean to me so I'm thinking Bill Mitchell must have done something to the Power Valve circuit. If this is so, I may be able to jet the carb up to get decent performance. Any ideas on this? Has anyone had any experience with a similar setup? I don't mind spending time fine-tuning the jetting but I would like to get a safe ballpark number for the main jets to start with.
Also, what about plugs and timing?
I'm thinking about 30 deg. total on the timing, but don't know about the plugs. My motor has the big valve (2.30" int.) iron Merlin VR heads and I believe 9:1 compression.
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

It's necessary!
Think about how much you have into your motor. For a few hundred dollars, it's worth it to have Dean do your carb.

DAVE

You will never get any other answer here. Apparently Dean is the only man in the world capable of tuning a carb for a procharger,,,hope we don't lose him. Procharger says go about 10-12 jets up and work down. I don't have a lot of faith in them but I'm gonna try it and do like you're talking about,keep the timing down and watch plugs,EGT etc. I got tired of hearing just let Dean do it. I can rebuild my motor for the cost of his carb. I guess when you have a monopoly you can make a nice income. Nothing against him, I have no doubt he's the best it's just that I'm here for tech help. I don't see advice to "just send your motor to X or your drives to Z" but nobody want's to touch a carb (or even guess as to what he does)???WOW . I'll let you know after I blow mine up,hee,hee

Pro-Charger
 

I have had experience with a Pro-Charger-mostly bad. With the carb set up it is very important that your fuel is boost referenced properly. For every pound of boost you have to have one pound of fuel pressure. I set mine at 8lbs with no boost. Pro-Charger did not really work until I changed pulley to get 7lbs of boost. At wide open throttle fuel pressure was 15lbs. 502 c.i. motor ran 103 in 25 Eliminator Daytona. Note: Pro-Charger blower belt must be very tight or it will slip.

How do you tell if it's slipping? I have 5# pullies and am considering going to 7 after I get the bugs out. Are you saying it was easier to tune when you went to 7#'s?
I am using a Holley 750 DP with 72 and 86 jets and plan to go up to 84 and 98 when the boost is running,does this sound about right? I have an Aeromotive boost ref. reg.(ref off the blower box) and thought 7# base was about max,,how much will the Holley take before starting to bleed thru,,guess I could figure that out by watching the sight plug huh? Any place other than Procharger to buy pullies?Anybody wanting to sell 2-7# pullies(12 rib) Thanks

Hardcore:

There is a lot of expertise on this board regarding blowthrough supercharging. Dave F is right. You can't simply jet the carb richer. You need to modify the power valve circuit to get some semblance of fuel metering in response to changes in air density. This is beyond the ability of most mechanics. You do need a carb specialist who has proven he knows how to do it. Nickerson and a very few others have done it. I recommend Nickerson because I have done two dyno tests and one in water test with his stuff and it works. When you are done you will have $6-7K in your supercharging setup; the cost of having your new carb modified may be 5% of the total, but it can mean the difference between a rocket and a bomb.

Your 509 is a great base for blowthrough supercharging. We have seen 800 HP. There is more to this story, but to save typing I refer you to our website.

www.rtechperformance.com

Tom

My Pro-Charger was set up at 84 and 98 on jets. Nickerson did the carb. Most Holley carbs will take up to 9lbs of fuel pressure at idle before bleeding fuel off. When I first got the carb back from Nickerson the motor ran fat. I dialed the carb jets to 82 and 96 and it was still fat. I changed pulley to run 7lbs of boost and everything came together. I was one of the first ones Nickerson did a Pro-Charger carb for. It was 4 years ago so the way he does them has probably changed. I had problems with the motor running irradical. One pass would be good and the next bad. Belt was slipping on the big end. Tightened it up like a rubber band and ran consistant after that. I didn't like the looks and squeeling sound the Pro-Charger made so I broomed the Pro-Charger and switched to a 8-71 Littlefield. Ran PFM Gorilla fuel injection system and intercooler. It was sweeeet until computer problems drove me crazy.

so it squeels when it slips,plain enough I guess. Does belt dressing give a better bite? Do you have a measurement for deflection or just make it real tight?Thanks

I tightened it big time. No measurement.

Thanks Steve,I need the help

Thanks for all of the replies guys. I 'm almost certain I need to stay clear of the Procharger setup until I can afford fuel injection!
Does anyone know what Nickerson charges to modify a carb for this type of setup? Or do you have to buy one of his carbs outright?
I have rebuilt and modified quite a few Holley carbs in the past and there is only so much you can do to them.
I'm thinking that Dean probably bores out the Power circuit orfices to add the necessary enrichment there under boost as opposed to having the main circuit overly rich to compensate for the added airflow the blower produces. This way you get A/F enrichment only when you need it - under boost. This would mean that you don't get flooding at part throttle because you have such big main jets. ( I guess the only thing to do is keep it W.O.T.!!)
BTW: Holley makes at least a couple of different types of PowerValves. The "window" type with the square holes is highest flowing one. This type always comes in Holley Trick Kits. Anyone know what type and what In. Hg. rating the P/V in the Nickerson carbs?
I know I am oversimplifying, but after all, a Holley carb is a pretty simple piece of equipment, is it not?
I'm going to try jetting it up rich myself at first (if I buy the P/charger) and be careful and I'll let you all know how it goes.

that's what I did,opened up the power valve holes a little(very little) we'll see what happens

If you have a carb already, he only charges like 350 or so to modify.
To buy a carb from him is around 6-7 bucks. But thats with all the goodies. 4 corner idle etc.
Thats if I remember correctly.

My 2 carbs, pump, reg and fittings was around 1850.

DAVE

Dean quoted me 1050 EACH for a carb and 550 EACH to do mine. This was last month.
Maybe if I figure out what he's doing I'll have a new career,,JUST KIDDING GUYS, I won't blaspheme on this board,,LONG LIVE DEAN!!

was that a regular 4150 carb or a dominator?

Thats what he used to charge for dominators. Maybe he raised his prices?

Here's an update guys:
As luck would have it, I got water in my carb somehow and had to pull it down and rebuild it this weekend. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the carb is loaded with all sort of mods and good parts, including the following:
1.Dual Power Valves. These suckers actually have 4 large rectangular orifices in them. I don't know where Bill Mitchell finds them but I would definitely like to find some spares. They were screwed up so I had to replace them with the Holley High Performance 2 Rect. Hole types.Also the holes from the power cavity to the main jet well are definitely opened up to like 0.080" You can compare them to a regular 4bbl double pump and there is a noticeable visible difference.
2.Vent Whistles to prevent fuel slosh.
3.Chamfered jets. They were actually # 78s (although the Dyno sheet said 74s) on all4 corners. They look different from the Holley standard jet in that they are chamfered on both sides of the hole. This I believe will improve flow so they probably could flow like say an # 80 or so.
4. 4 corner idle circuits
5. Downleg ("dogleg") boosters with the bottom machined out (for stronger booster signal?)
6. Brass floats. I read somewhere that these can't be used with positive displacement forced induction because the added pressure will collapse the floats (they're hollow) Anyone know anything about this?
7. The needle and seat assembly appeared to be different from the standard Holley Trick Kit issue and they look to be larger. BTW: Any ideas on whether this should be changed for single carb blower applications? The standard High Performance Holley Viton seat is ).110". Holley does make a . 150" Titanium seat assembly that I want to get. I think that should solve any fuel delivery problem I have there!
8. Quick Change float bowls for easy access to the jets (you have to use a Holley jet tool though).
All in all this seems to be a nicely modified carb to begin with so I am convinced that I will stick with it (with
richer mains) and jet it carefully.

BTW: It is important to note that the Power circuit is the circuit which Holley designed to feed the carb at W.O.T. as opposed to the main circuit which feeds the mid range. If you talk to most Holley tuning gurus they'll tell you that you should jet the mains for economical cruise and then select a power valve to compliment your WOT use. BUT power valves are only designed such that they control the WOT circuit "tip in" point, NOT fuel calibration. The orifices behind the power valve actually control fuel calibration. Brad Urban use to make a kit which included a drill bit and tap set and a number of screw-in jets to allow you to drill and tap these orifices and then jet them for your particular application. I don't know if he still offers this kit but I'll try to find out and will keep you all posted.
That said I think I need to start looking for a Procharger now...

that was for 4150.

i have a 4150 being built now for a pro charged hp500 $1095

See, that's what I'm saying - if you have a carb thats already highly modified why should someone have to pay even $500.00 to have a few orifices in it modified? The other thing is, all of the fuel metering for all three circuits (idle, main and power) is done in the metering blocks. the only other metered orifices are the idle and high speed air bleeds which are located above the venturi in the main body. Most people don't even want to touch these unless you're dealing with a Dominator and there is a high speed mixture problem.
It must be that someone in the carb business could sell modified metering blocks to us poorer folk for say even $75- 100 which should take care of any fuel delivery problems we might encounter with the Procharger setup.
BTW: Cooltoys61: You might want to get a Secondary metering block with the power valve circuit in it so that you will have the ability to tune for the right fuel enrichment at higher cruise speeds when the secondaries are partially open.

Hardcore,

Keep us posted on your carb mods and how they work for you on your M3 setup. I'd be interested in your progress.

Hardcore:

Are you stuck on Procharger or would you consider a Vortech system with one of our supercoolers?

wondering what heat range you guys are using for sparks plugs.i have a pro charged intercooled hp 500. and it came with ngk vpower plugs r5674-7.seems to me they should be colder than the #7 heat range?.the carb from nickerson should be done next week.

Hardcore,
Hope to have it running in a week and procharged (tubes connected)right after. I'll let you know how the carb mods are doing. Thanks for the help, I'm listening, Allen

Sleeker Im running r5671-8 in my alum heads with msd 6al with no idle problems. The plugs always look black and hard to read. but they dont load up.

I was wondering about plugs myself. I have Merlin VR cast-iron heads and would appreciate any suggestions on plugs for the M3 setup on that. According to the literature that came with my motor, my compression is 9:1.
Also, what are you all running for timing? 30 degerees?

BTW: I have the M3 about half-way installed now. (I actually had it for a while but I didn't want Cayformula to know but he came by last night and caught me installing it!)
I actually got a really good deal from an OSO member on a MPI setup and had to order a carb enclosure from Vortech which actually looks better set-up than the ATI box. I took the #78 jets out of the carb and put in # 90s to start. I'll probably cruise it at half-throttle and check the plugs.
BTW HPJunkie: the Procharger book says that they like to see the plugs with black- soot on the threaded part so you're probably close to where you need to be on jetting.
I'll let you guys know how it turns out.
Oh well, back to the wrenches!:D

He just wanted to abuse my poor little old Formula 272SR1.

I just want to be around when he surprises some of the other guys around here.

HARDCORE you had #78 jets in the front and rear?.btw i just picked up a couple boxes of ac mr43t plugs i called nickerson who is building a carb for the motor and he said they run the stock plugs.plus there cool plugs so less chance of detonation and i can get them local.im ready to take out the kryptonite soon as i get the carb.i got a 91.6 on gps a couple weeks ago with the engine hitting the rev limmiter on the stock hp 500 ignition at around 5200rpms and the jetting way fat.the engine dynoed its peak hp at 5500 rpms it made 710hp.so i just put in a full msd system with a 5600 rpm chip and getting the new carb from nickerson.im hoping it turns around 5400/5450 rpms.if i hit the rev limiter (5600) now ill have to pitch up the 34 bravo prop and should be right on the edge of triple digits.this is with a 1.50 ratio bravo 1 i probably should have a 1.36 gear.

Sleeker:
I did have #78s on all 4 corners. That's how they jet Holleys when you have power valves on both ends. If the secondaries don't have a P/V circuit then the main jets would be like six or eight sizes bigger.
BTW: I think you had better order that 34 Bravo from now.
Cayformula: Maybe you should tell these guys that your "poor little Formula 272SR1" (more like SR71!!) has easily run 93+ on GPS with a full load AND severely under-propped. AND that in our recent local poker run you nearly kicked Andreas Ugland's!! ass in a 44' Buzzi Hull w/ Seatek deisels/trimax drives. If that isn't the fastest 272 Formula on the planet I'll eat it!

BTW: I have every thing installed and guess what - The blower belt is too short! WTF?! is up with that? Oh well, I guess I should buy a smaller driven pulley? Wonder what that will do with my boost? I guess I'll just run race gas for ass kickin and disconnect the blower and take the lid off the carb box for regular running!

Seriously though, does anyone know the quickest way for me to get pulleys and/or belts for the M3 procharger?

Did you try Associated for the blower belt? They do keep some in stock, not sure if long enough for your application though.

Ian T with the poor little Formula;)

Hey Ian. How's the weather over there in Jolly old England? I called Ms. Z. a while ago and she said they don't have any 12-rib belts in stock, only 8-rib. I guess I'll have to call CP and see what they say.

BTW - Sleeker, what kind of boat do you have and what blower system are you using? Also, what's your boost like? I have a 7.75 " crank pulley and a 5" blower pulley on my M3 w/ AW-504 I/C. Anybody want to guess what kind of boost that would produce on my Teague 509?

HEY HARDCORE.sleeker here with a new /different name.i have a 29 foot kryptonite,well really its a 27 with a 2 foot built in swin platform.it has a.030 over hp 500 with a procharger m1sc with the 12 rib belt.its all over kryptonites web site check out kryptoniteboats.com go to sport model and click on the 29 model the all yellow one is actually my boat lots of pics and also its in the owners gallery its right at the top of the page there are some motor shots with the pro charger.

Hardcore,
it will depend a lot on your heads, cam, exhaust etc....
For reference only; My M3/504IC 540c.i. with ported Canfields, CMIs, 741 cam and 8.5:1 makes 5 lbs at 5500rpm. This is with the 7.65 (the only big block pulley they make according to them) and a 4.5 pulley.
Too many variables unless your stock. My guess is you'll probably see about the same 5 lbs with your setup.
Dave

Thanks guys. I think the driven pulley I have (5"? - I measured 5-1/6" to outside of lip) is supposed to be a 7lb. pulley for the stock M3 MPI setup so I agree that I should see around 5lbs. on my motor.
My motor has Merlin 345cc Rect. heads w/2.30int. valves and the cam specs are like 226 deg. intake/ 230 exh. duration w/ .587" int. and .610" exh. and 114 deg. lobe separation.Also, I have Lightning headers (wet T/pipes).
Just out of interest, what kind of MPH gains have you guys seen w/ a single engine M-3 setup on boats of say 25 - 30 feet long?
BTW: Yesterday I called Procharger and they recommended I buy a 69" 8-rib (since the belt w/ my kit was a 68") just to check the size. I ccouldn't find one so I bought two Gates Micro - v 69" 6-rib sepentine belts from a local auto parts store and they fit perfectly side by side on my pulleys. I had to adjust the tensioner to maximum though because one was just very slightly longer than the next. So, no room for re-tightening. Does anybody know whether you can get like a 68 - 1/2 " 12 - rib belt?
I cranked her up and all I can say is this is a NASTY- sounding SOB! I'm going to try running it on the weekend.
Also, I noticed that the carb now has a flat spot just off idle. I checked it out and the Primary Acc. pump cam has a slow starting ramp. My guess is that w/ added boost at idle it now needs a richer shot sooner to cover the off idle transition (because of the extra air rushing past the primary throttle plate when you crack it open). So, the fix - I think- is a steeper accel. pump cam (I have tons of 'em). I'll probably play with the Squirters too. I have the # 35 that came in the carb now so I'll probably go to a # 37. Failing that, I'll put a 50cc ("reo") Accel Pump on the front bowl. I'll keep you posted on how the carb tuning works out...

Nice idea on the twin 8 ribs....:eureka:

I gained approximately 12 mph on my 28/5000lb boat with the addition of the SC.

Nasty sounding is right:eek: When we first fired it up I ran in and called Procharger and told them I thought it was broke:mad:
Throw the rpms to her and she'll sing pretty for you though:D :D :D :D

I use a 67" with my 4.5. I have to pull the pulley off and slide it back on with the belt around it to get it to fit.

HARDCORE,that belt is going to loosen up as it breaks in.with no tesioner left you might throw it or it will sqweel.id try the the pully removal deal with the shorter belt.are you runnig any kind of water restrictor to get some temp in the engine.sean

Thanks Krypto 1. I was thinking the same thing. I already tried the take off pulley deal with the tensioner all the way slack (I actually had someone pull out on the tensioner so the belt was straight) and the 68" 12 Rib belt wouldn't allow me to get the pulleback on the snout. It's just like a 1/4 " away. I even tried ridng it unto the main pulley (which has a shorter "lip on the edge) and f@cked up a couple of the ribs on the belt so I don't want top use it again anyway. Does anybody know whether you can get like a 68 - 1/2 " belt (12- Rib)??
BTW: I'm not running any sort of water restrictor but by motor was running like 120-140 degrees under hard use (1+ mile W.O.T. runs) before I installed the blower. Do you think thats enough temp? I'm not using the ATI thermostat housing either but a Teague S/S w/ 3/4" nipples to the headers.

that temp seems good.im having trouble getting any water temp.oil is only getting to 150. the water here in ct is only about 43 right now.the only other thing i can think of for the belt is get a new 68 and unbolt the tensioner put the belt on and try to get the tensioner back on.not sure if they make belts in 1/2 inch incraments.

OK that explains it, The only how water gets to 43 degrees down here(Cayman Islands) is in the fridge! More like 83 average all year round. Yep, sucks don't it!;)
That's a good idea with the idler pulley though.
The belt issue might resolve itself if I have to go to a smaller pulley - which I suspect I will have to. I'll try her this weekend with the "duallie-six-rib" setup and depending on what boost it makes I'll know what I need to order from Procharger.
BTW: You can't get pulleys from anybody else but Procharger and you can't even talk to them unless you give them your blower's serial number!

I ran the boat this weekend with the Procharger setup and what a difference! The boat feels like it's about 1000lbs lighter!
I didn't get to hold it WOT for long because I'm still playing with the jetting and timing, but a quick blast from about 2/3 throttle (80mph or so @ <1lb boost) netted 99MPH @ 5lbs of boost. I think I probably touched the rev limiter because I seem to be getting a lot of slip with my 27" repitched to 29" Accelerator prop. (I have 1.34 gearing). I just can't get enough of the boat out of the water with this prop (although in fairness, I was running with another person in the boat (my old archrival Cayformula!) with a full tank of gas (45 gals).
Anyways, judging by what I felt, it should run between 105 - 110 when I get it dialed. Right now the jetting (#90 jets) all around looks good but I think I retarded the timing too much. I just kinda guestimated - 30 deg. because my balancer doesn't have any markings except 0 - 15 and 34 deg. It might be more like 28degs though.
It "deisels" when I shut it down hot as well, even when I shut it down in gear at about 750 RPM.
Anybody want to say what kind of max. advance they run?
Also, I found that I had left a plug out of the carb box but it was a small one (like 1/4") so I don't think it bled off too much boost.
I did notice that it was kind of "lugging" @WOT when it was warm - like 160 deg. water temp. Almost it was hitting the limiter at 5600 or so but my chip (MSD) is @ 6000RPM.
I re-tightened the belt and it still felt funny. Almost like it was leaning out but the plugs look slightly on the rich side if anything (and thats how Procharger says they like it)
It's like the motor runs fine once its cool but when it warms up it acts funny. I have good fuel pressure (15lbs @ 5lbs boost) so I don't know what gives. I'm going step the jetting up a couple of sizes and also degree the balancer and play with the timing. It looks like the old boat might actually be an animal in the making.
Now for a 7lb. pulley and a 32" B-1 prop!
BTW: I got the P/charger belt on (barely!!) by following Kryto 1's advice. Thanks buddy. One of them "why didn't I think of that" deals.
To be continued...