Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Ok, I have been seeing high oil temps as I have previously mentioned here. I have the temp sender mounted in my remote oil filter pad. This unit is the Fram HP6 setup. My Gafrig gauge tells me I am hitting 250/260*. I did a test this past weekend to see what is really going on. I taped a thermocouple to my oil filter, plugged it into my Fluke meter and when my dash gauge said 250* the Fluke meter said 203*. My question??

Has anyone compared the temp of the oil filter to the temp of the oil going through it?? I know they wont be equal, but 40 some degrees is quite a spread. I have a suspicion that my Gafrig is goofy!!

Thanks for any input.

Dick

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Although I haven't measured the filter temp, my Gaffrig sender is tapped into the base of the remote oil filter. I get 240° after a hard run. I tested my sending unit in a pan of boiling water and it was dead perfect on the gauge.
You can do the same to check yours. Just make sure the water is boiling rapidly such that it is turning to steam to make sure the temperature is as close to 212° as possible.

Good luck.

Greg

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Take the engine Oil Temp probe out of the housing, and rig up 13.8v source (or what ever your regulator is set for on the boat) and gage in your garage and place in boiling water, should read 212 on the gage, if not then calibrate with fingernail polish mark on the glass for 212 so you will know. (Check the TC also this way to verify it reads correctly.) TC's do not always function properly either. Also, contact on outside of filter would introduce the heat loss of the filter body and also how well the TC was "touching" the filter body.

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

I have shot my filter with an IR temp gun and got similar differntial as you did with the fluke Mr G. Just curious, what temp is the engine coolant running when the oil is at 250F?

BT :cool:

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Hmm... I used an IR temp gun to check my oil filter and it read the same as the gauge so I figured the gauge was correct. A liquid like oil has enough mass to hold heat for quite a while. I would think that the temperature of the oil in the filter would be almost identical to the oil coming from the engine. Especially since it is moving all the time.

Check your Fluke thermocouple by putting it in a glass of ice water. It should be 32*. Then put it in a pan of boiling water. It should be about 210* at our altitude. If it is correct then I would say your gauge is off. Good luck.

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Thanks guys, all good ideas! I will use them to check further.
Water temps are showing in the 140-150 range. That is with a Stainless Marine crossover and 142* stat.
I have trusted the Fluke for years, and have boiled water to check it. I will try the ice cube trick. I had the thermocouple taped to the housing, using a wad of tape right over the junction of the thermocouple. There is a possibility that it may not have made good contact, but I was confident that it was.
Gafrig has two different oil temp gauges, I am wondering if I have the proper sender. I have two, so I will swap them around and see if things change.
Now if i can boil the water right in the boat, that would be a big help..

Thanks guys,
I will let you know how this turns out.

Dick

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

[QUOTE=MACDAD260]Hmm... I used an IR temp gun to check my oil filter and it read the same as the gauge so I figured the gauge was correct. A liquid like oil has enough mass to hold heat for quite a while. I would think that the temperature of the oil in the filter would be almost identical to the oil coming from the engine. Especially since it is moving all the time.

QUOTE]

I'll check my temps again when I get up and running again... Wind can have a significant affect on IR surface readings.

BT

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Ok, just finished boiling water. The Fluke saw 212* when boiling was well underway. I couldnt get 32* in the ice water, but did see 28* on an ice cube in the freezer and 34* on the cube in the ice water. Wasnt too worried about the ice side. I trust my meter is pretty close at the 212* mark. Doug, I may be a little closer to sea level?? :) over here by the Lake!! :) :)

I called Gafrig today, not sure which one I ened up with, just used the number in my lastest catalog. But Ron told me that I should see

126 ohms at 250*
64 ohms at 300*
35 ohms at 350*
not much of a scale if you ask me, but I was able to see a solid 265 ohms at 212*.

So I come to the conclusion that my gauge is working properly. So now I ask myself, why the high oil temps. I just rebuilt the sea water pump and I have checked the oil cooler, no debris in the water passages. I do have a Keith Eckert remote oil stat, that I have not bypassed, because it is a pain to do.

I may not have enough water passing through the headers to keep the oil cool, but I dont have that water psi gauge yet. Santa forgot me on that one.

Next thing up, is what causes high oil temps in a motor?
Detonation, too much timing, etc??
I am presently running about 30* timing with the dist locked in. I started at 34* but backed it of because of my rod ratio and not wanting to get too much timing? No one seems to be able to pin it down as to where I should be on timing with my long rods. I have not had the time to run it at different settings to see if things get better or worse. So where do I go from here.. any ideas!!

Thanks
Dick

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Mr Gadgets....check the oil flow direction through the cooler.....it should be going against the flow of water for max cooling and not with the flow of water.......maybe something to check out. :)

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Yep, what he said. Worked on mine.

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Removing the water tstat dropped my oil temps 30F with a cc system. Tried everything before that with little or no improvement. I was amazed. Now I run 200f cruise and 230 wot oil temps in 2 engines.

BT :cool:

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

valve springs!...running some lift in that engine are we???

250-260 @WOT or cruise?

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Dick,
just a recommendation, get that Fram filter out of there ! Back in the race car days we had MANY issues with Fram filter. Most of the time we would notice a loss of oil pressure, change the filter and pressure was back.
Last month Lenny had a customer that lost oil pressure in a 330, after the motor was out pan off, and several oil pumps later we were talking and he mentioned the Fram , told him to change it and sure enough oil pressure was back. I know this has nothing to do with your problem, just a heads up.

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Hey again thanks guys.. all good ideas!!
The oil flow is against the water flow, first thing I checked.
The oil will heat up the harder I run it! If I run for several miles it slowly climbs up to the 250 mark. If I lean on it more I can make it go as hot as I want, well till I chicken out.
Was that a Fram HP6 that was causing the problem on that boat? My buddy has run that setup for 5yrs at least and no problems! I waited to change mine after he had success!!

Not too much lift, it is a flat tappet cam, I think, yes cam card says .677/.703", I/E. but I just replaced the valve springs the end of last season, should be good there I am hoping.

I am tending to lean towards restricted water flow! The last boat I had this cooler in, I had dumps on the top of the tail pipes to shed more water. I dont have that on this boat. Forgot to tell CMI to add them. I am considering adding a tee after the cooler and before the motor to see if more water flow helps. I was told by a reliable source that there should only be a couple of degrees difference between the input and output water through the cooler.

What do you think guys.. keep em coming, It makes me think!!
Thanks

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

that is a good amount of lift...stock coolers???...waz not saying the spings were bad...more seat pressure=more heat.

"the cam card"...i hope you did cam timing on the engine?...your cam timing can play a vey large role in your issue...

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Dick,
Now that you mention it I don't think those were the HP series oil filters.

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

This site http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfi...ilfilters.htmlhas some info on Fram filters. They were not very complimentery.

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Damn, better get that dura guard off my engine!!

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

I think I saw that article on the oil filters, still waiting to see something specifically on the HP6. My buddy tore his motor down after 3yrs, I think and his engine builder said he could have reused the bearings in the bottom end.. so something is working.

The cooler I am running is 3" x 15". I was told it would do 900hp. Didnt have a problem with the other motor and boat with this cooler. And yes I spent a good amount of time getting the cam in there where I wanted it. With the flat tappet cam, I see 140lbs on the seat and 380 over the nose. I am hoping the setup is right, just not enough water going thru it.
Tonite I built a manifold to bleed off water just after the cooler, used a 3/4" ball valve and will run a hose out the back to try and see if more water helps. I need to hook up a water psi gauge, just too many mesquitoes out there tonite.
Tomorrow is a furlough day ( day off without pay), I wish everyone would pay their taxes so I can continue to work for this "Cool State" as the new Gov puts it! But I look at it this way, I could stand to loose a few pounds and I get to go boating on a day off. What more could a guy ask for?? Well time to hit..
Thanks again for the input. I will let you know how it all works out.

Dick

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Here is an update on my problem. I borrowed a laser temp gun and did a little bit of testing. When the gauge reads 250* after a decent run, I see about 200* on the in/out of the oil filter pad. I shot at the fittings because they are all the same color, and should give me consistent results. Well seeing that my oil temp is at 250 the stat should be wide open and forcing most of the oil through the cooler. Well in and out at the oil cooler are 160* and 140*. So I suggest that my expensive KE oil thermostat is just another expensive part that takes up room in the engine compartment and all it does is cause problems.
I bypassed it tonight, but then did some checking. I have been down on top end power so I figured it was time to check the valve lash. When I put it away last fall it was running good. But right out of the box this summer and it just doesn't seem to want to pull on the top end. Well I found one exhaust valve with .034" clearance, so I suspect it is time to rebuild the motor. Another fun summer project. I just may be using my wife's back up boat for the rest of the season..

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Those IR guns don't read right on the brass fittings.The readings will vary with the color of material you shoot it at.There is a fancy word for the theory behind it that an engineering bud of mine told me.If I remember ill let you know.

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Its called "emissivity" Harrison. Fancy IR guns have a pot to adjust for emissivity.

BT

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Believe me I didnt trust it, but after several times looking at things, I think I eliminated the emissivity problem, to some degree. Shooting at the same type and style of fittings should have gotten me close. I have bypassed the tstat and will now wait for the new cam and then go test again.. Gotta love this boating thing!!

Thanks
Dick

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

I have been having a oil temp problem for a while and it is totally resolved. For a couple of years I was running approx 190* oil temp and last year it went way up so I replaced the oil cooler with a new mercruiser 800 hp cooler. It wasn't the problem. After a rebuild this winter the oil temp was reading very high, up to 260 + and without beating on the motor. I turns out their are check valves in the motor which in case of a clogged filter it allows oil to flow to the motor and by-pass the filter/cooler area. We closed up the check valves and the problem is totally solved. I cant get the engine hot if I keep the throttle open for hours.

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

I am running a Merlin super tall deck block and I can remember what valving is included, but I always plumb it so all the oil is forced through the filter/cooler, so that shouldnt be an issue. But it is a very good point.
Thanks
Dick

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Well here is an update to my situation.
I got a chance to run the boat yesterday. I was in the process of tuning the EFI and only made one pass on the river at wot. I did make three or four passes as i was tuning and worked my way up to wot. The Cutler EFI is self tuning and that is the process. Anyway. I saw oil temp at 180 after the second pass. I was up to about 4k rpm at that point. The next pass was worked up to 5400rpm at wot and the temp went to 220*. In the past I have done the same tuning procedure and saw 250* after the same amount of runs.
I ran on the Big lake and it never went over 225*, but I was unable to run over about 4600, but I did that for a 12.5 mile run. So I am leaning toward the KE Oil stat being the problem. I believe it was not forcing all the oil thru the cooler, only part of it. Not sure why, but I mean to investigate. I paid good money for that stat and want an answer.. I will keep you posted..

Dick

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Blue Thunder is right on if my feeble mind is still working. I believe the color Black has the highest rate of emissivity.

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Just wondering why you think a rebuild or cam is ness. because you lash is off on one valve. Could be the lobe but I'd check the lift there to be sure before I tore it down,could be it just backed off the nut a little. I'm sure you knew this though.
Also I've always read to paint manifolds, etc, that you want to disperse heat ,black. Assuming, of course, it's out of the sun. Any truth to this and maybe related to the emissivity? Sorta like the little toy I got at the space center as a kid that spun the vanes when placed in the sun because they are black on one side white on the other?.

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Glad to see you're making progress on the oil temp, Dick. I run a Perma-Cool T-stat and I sometimes question it's value although, I do believe that when the oil warms up all of it is going through the cooler. It's just that when the oil is cold it still allows some oil to go through the cooler, too. Does Merc use a T-stat on the HP motors? If they do where is it located and why don't we all just run those? They seem to work. I am all for letting someone else work out the kinks and then steal their ideas. :p

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Cooltoys,
Check my post on Pot holes in cam lobes.. that will explain what I found. I did replace the cam and set it all back up. Ran the snot out of it on Sunday and my oil temps have not gone over the 225* mark. Well the gauge is not very well graduated, but the needle goes a bit over the 220* mark. I am liking what I see at this point. It still takes a while for the oil to get to temp, but it did that even with the stat in place, so it just plain wasnt functioning. Theroy was good, but in my case, practical application was not good. I want to know why. I spent hard earned money on that thing. But for now I am boating and that is what counts. I will be working on a different way to not cool the oil until it gets to temp. But too many irons in the fire at this moment.

Macdad, I am not sure what else is out there. In the begining of the boat rigging, I did my research and thought I was all set with the KE part. I will look at other stuff, when the cold weather hits, but for now, I am a happy camper. I ran from Muskegon to GH most of th way at speed yesterday. Even managed a best of 76mph in the slop. And like I said, I havent seen over 225*. I need some flatter water so I can make the whole 12mi run at 5000rpm to really test the system.

Like my buddy said... problem solved!
Thanks for everyone's input.
Dick

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Dick: This was a good thread that you posted. I have read yours and others that have had similiar high oil temps as well and I am curious about more info on your motors. Are you using a high volume or std oil pump? Did you ever get to the bottom of the T-Stat issue?
Thanks - Gary

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

That's what I do as well.

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Dick,

Did you ever see what was wrong with your KE thermostats?I have two of them and I think they are acting up also.

Thanks Nordic95

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Gary, I am using a HV pump that I get from Steff's, who made my pan. It is a Melling HV pump if I believe.

The solution:
Well actually, I removed the KE unit and found my oil takes as long to heat up as it did before with it installed, but my oil temps only go to about 220* maybe 230*. So I am convinced that the KE unit was not shutting off completely, allowing oil to bypass the cooler.
So this year I designed a differnt type of oil cooler bypass. I am bypassing the water through the cooler until oil gets to temp and then run the water thru it.. The oil temp comes up much faster and stays at temp.. At this point I have not mounted the actuator, and have been operating it manually.. But I do like the way it works.

Still havent found time to send the KE unit back to have them look at it. Just another high dollar part on the shelf that doesnt work.. Maybe this winter.. nope too busy doing drives .. well soon I hope I can send it back..

Hope this helps..
Dick

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

I had a similiar problem a couple years back with the same KE oil thers. :rolleyes: Thought I might've connected the hoses on backwards. NOPE, It turned out to be that BOTH units had thermstats that were stuck closed till they hit temps of 250-260. I took them apart and boiled the stats, would'nt open, even at 230*. I had to put them into a oven and bake em. It took between 250-260* to get them to open. Replaced them, and the engines ran at 215-220 @ cruise and 225-230 at wot.

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Thanks Dick, it does help me to understand more. In case your interested, I seem to have the same plague too with high oil temps (+250*) concerning 500hp motors built for my Fountain.
Eddie Marine 3"x15" coolers
Mocal sandwich T Stats (High Flow units)

First run - 240* - Mocal sandwich stats were suspected of not closing at the proper temps to direct oil to the coolers. Pulled them off and hand tested them on a stove with hot oil in a sauce pan to verify temp. At 240* they did not close completely, so I sent them back and BAT Inc (Mocal) R&R'd them and returned them. Next, I retested Tstats and this time I saw 187* closing temperature before putting them back on the motors. After running them again, I still had 240* so issue was still there for me.
Next, I plugged one bypass in both motors and retested. Temps might have dropped by 5*to 10* hard to be sure since gauge graduation spands from 230* to 320*. I did notice a decrease in oil pressure by about 10psi overall (hot and cold) I had to pull a motor to plug bypasses on both motors. Not fun since a 32' Fever does not have much room. Uhrrg!
This lead me to read more of this plague many suffer and after reading several more postings concernig high oil temps from modified motors, it seems to me the common denominator for this issue appears to be more related to using a HV oil pump. I too have the melling HV pump in both of my motors.
I think the next step for me is to pull both motors back out, drop the pans and put new std oil pumps in over the Christmas holiday.
Hey, but on a lighter note, it's great to still be able to go boating in December! Thanks again, Gary

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Gary,
Have you tried running them without the tstat? Not sure how that unit is setup. I dont know anyone that is running standard volume pumps. I do have all my bypasses plugged to force all the oil through the filters and cooler. Without the KE unit, I have a hard time getting 230* on my guauge. After a long run, maybe 15miles it would go to and stay at 230* this past summer.. I am also running a 3"x15" cooler.

I did the boiling water thing and the stat opened and closed very close to proper temps. I didnt however do it with oil, that maybe the culprit??

I like the idea of HV pump, but I dont know how much heat it creates.. I am happy with the oil temps I see at this point.
Another cause of hot oil is detonation and improper oil control as it is tossed off the crank. What kind of pans are you using and how do they wipe the oil as it is thrown off the crank throws?

Dick

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Dick: I have kicked around the idea of running without the oil T-stat just to see what it does and may do so just to understand more about the variables of this heat issue.
All of the bends in my plumbing are soft radius 90* Aeroquip except for where the oil enters the T-Stat sandwich plate and it immediately hits a wall and is then directed over to the line for the cooler or filter. (dependant on temperature).
Then on return from the cooler, there is similair repeat (restriction) as the oil would then slam into the T-stat mechanism and be forced up and through the filter. So if yours is similair to mine, I can see how it may make a difference. Here is a link to a view of the mocal unit at the bottom of the page: It is the SP1T-HF unit.
http://64.202.180.37/files/sp1t.pdf
I too leaned towards the HV pump during the design. However, before the changes I made to my motors, oil temp stayed around 180*cruising and maybe 200* @WOT with the stock 2"x13" cooler!
Our (yours and mine) cooler size increased to more than double the capacity of the stock cooler. Looking mathmatically, the area is represented as A=3.14 r^2 (pie x radius squared)
For area of the stock cooler , it would be = 12.56 in and 28.26 in for the area of the 3 inch coolers we have. Volume calculation would show even a larger number difference.
My motors gained about 100hp, but at cruise speed, I may only be using half or more of the motors output.
Since temps went from 180* to 240* at cruise and no other changes were made, it seems to me the overlooked factor is that more heat is being put into the oil. If nothing else but the e HV pump has changed, it seems thinkable that oil is not moving fast enough through the system for what the pump's capacity is able to put it out. Friction from a HV pump could be transferring more heat to the oil than we think. The anolagy I think about is a high horsepower car trying to push a load up hill, spinning the tires and generating a lot of heat.

To answer your question, I am using a stock 8 qt mercruiser pans with stock windage trays. Timing is set at 12* and I am using 22* advance HP modules.

Gary

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

What kind of oil PSI are you seeing at cruise speeds? I run about 50psi at 3500 with the HV pump. All my lines are #10AN which is small and have all 90* radius bends.
I have a hard time thinking the oil pump creates that much heat over what it was. If that were the case, others would be finding similar results.. I would eliminate the T-stat and see what happens. I take it you had the stats previous to the motor mods?
My stat is step differently.. and should work in theory, I was very surprised to see such a big diff in operation after removing it. Especially after testing the stat in the pot on the stove..

Your timing sounds very reasonable. The stock windage, well I dont know?? But I think it would be easier to take the stats off and try it before removing the motors and then the oil pumps dont seem to fix it..

Are you getting proper water flow thru the cooler, that could be another issue?? Just thinking out loud. I used the temp gun to look at water and oil temps around the system.. that helped. Are you monitoring oil temp before or after the cooler??

Dick

Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
 

Before plugging the bypass, I saw 50psi cruising @3500rpm as well. After plugging, it dropped 5 psi maybe because some flow was by-passing the cooler.
The stock HP500 from Mercruiser, I have been told is plumbed in -8AN, so your -10AN plumbing should have been big enough.
I have to admit that initially, I did not put much stock in the oil pump putting heat into the oil either!
However, after discussing all of this with a mechanical engineer/ co-worker, he put more emphasis towards the HV pump being the issue. He referenced a blower making 5-7psi of boost going into an engine. The blower works similairly in that it is a pump and transfers a significant amount of heat to the air/fuel mixture. Couldn't argue with that point.
I have read many other posts, where others are experiencing what we have and no one has been able to put their finger on the issue. Some others did reference using a HV pump which is relative.
My Tstats are new, since Mercruiser did not put them in their 502/mpi motors.
H2O pumps are relatively new and I have made sure there is no bent, kinked hoses or restrictions. Plenty of water seems to be traveling through the cooler and the oil temps are taken before the them.
OK, just to see, I will pull the T-stats off tomorrow, reconnect the lines and try to retest the boat in a day or so just to see if it follows the same pattern as yours did. Will post the results.
I appreciate the dialog buddy,
Gary