Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

I have always been interested in the old Blackhawks, and would be willing to spend the money if it would give good top end.
If I would not have read all the threads on here about them I would have probably already bought one.
Can anyone tell me if it will even fit, or benefit?
1999 Wellcraft Excalibur 23' 502 mag.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

Blackhawks were discontinued...quickly. Maximize your setup with the bravo and you will be much happier.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

Teague in PowerBoat just did a story on Blackhawks. The only boat he said worked well was the P-29 Wellcraft.

Pair-a-Dice race team Mark Lee has one for sale if your interested with Blackhawks. 50-60k range x-clean.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

What about the Bravo 3? Do they still make it?
I guess I always wondered why no one else used the Blackhawks on expensive power boats.
How about the the Brao 2 or 3?
Or the 1:36 Bravo one. Isn't there a better Bravo one I can bolt on?

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

The best news you could get is that the drive you have is the best for your application. You seem to want to be told something different?

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

Good point OkieTunnel, I guess I am just not satisfied with 66mph and a 502 mag. I must have been dreaming when I though I would get 70's stock. I am ready to spend money and just want some advice from all of you who have traveled this road of frustration.
I think the key thing to understand is that I live on a lake with a 23' cap on length and none on HP.
I would sell all the other toys if I could have 40 some footer with multiple engines.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

From another post I think you need to check your compression. If you were getting a true 69mph with the Yamaha prop then that can be achieved again unless your engine was damaged. If your engine is ok then there are many things to explaore such as a shortened lower unit, custom props, etc. If you got 69 from a simple stock prop exchange there is probably 2-5mph above that waiting to be found.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

The Blackhawk worked pretty good on the old Team Exciter boat, too...

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

I have a friend that has them on his P29, count on fixing 2 drives a year. By the way, that is behind SBC's. I wouldn't think they'd live too long behind a big block.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

Airpacker has one on his cat. He broke the vertical shaft the first time out. The reason being was that he couldn't plane of because the engine was lugging. He had it firewalled and finally wrapped the shaft up until it snapped. He now has the drive ventilated so that it planes with out lugging the engine. If you look at the design, merc meant for this drive to be used with silent choice. The exhaust dumps in front of the props to help break them loose when planing. I utilized a simular system on my setup and it seemed to be working. The drive shifted softer than my bravo. But boy, when you trimmed it down, the boat sure did idle fast. Due to some steering issues, I've never had the chance to plane off though. This drive is not the bravo 3. Oh, yea, it uses the bravo shafts, but the housing is totally different. The housing is specifically shaped for the surfacing application and has the water pickup in the skeg. People might gripe about the low water pickups sucking mud, well imagine a skeg mounted pickup! The blade cross sections are also much thicker than the bravo 3 props. Not nearly as thick as a -6 or speed master prop though. The biggest thing to remember is that the hull has to be correctly designed to work with the drive. It must be naturally bow lifting. It can't have lifting strakes all the way to the stern. Often there will be rocker or notched transoms.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

I guess I would have to disagree with Teague in as that the P29 was the only boat it worked on :) My Eliminator went from 83.2 mph to 91.1 mph with nothing more than a drive change. Yes I broke one drive but that was due to 2 factors. One was a lugging problem but that was resolved as Cord said by ventilating the drive. The second problem was the drive I got was a pre production unit meant for training techs. The vertical shaft was not properly hardnened. I have since put approx 75 hrs on the drive and I run it hard 80% of the time. NO problems since the big bang. Would I hang one on a 23 foot V hull not designed to run one. NO because the loss of trim control, the loss of migrange cruise speed and the wicked docking speed would be to much to deal with. My cat naturally lifts the bow, good thing because it can't be trimmed to lift the bow( no leverage). It has to be running over 60mph to start lifting and settle the hull back properly.The rooster tail is a nice free added touch though :) Click the signature to see what I mean.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

The Exciter was designed with this drive in mind, I think. It jumps up on plane pretty good with a little tab. The current owner has not had a problem, although when he first bought it the drive was trashed from racing. It runs great, and pulls like a train in the midrange... low speed is a little tricky, though! Good rooster, too!

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

here are a some black hawk props we labbed and polished.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

I did not mean to say only boat but I did. :(

"Quote PB 8/04 Teague: there were very few stock production boats that the Blackhawks worked well on, yours is one exception" referring to the P-29.

Mark Lee, co-pilot of Pair-a-Dice PX-77, has one for sale and I've run neck to neck with him on poker runs. He sure grabs the air when running. I'm not sure how his has done reliable wise, but never heard anything when I was with him.

Sorry Air!! and I'm not saying Teague is GOD either, just his tech talk. :)

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

DT42,

Thanks for the ad. Yes, my P-29 is for sale for 60K or so, but not much less, and for all of the Black Hawk bashers out there - I have been running my set for 3 years and the only problem I had was from was from under water objects (which I could not belive I hit because the BlackHawk is 7" higher). The upper gears and bearings on a BlackHawk are stronger than a Bravo (matched, beveled, and hardened) and I have been told that the BlackHawk with the updated gearset and bearings will take up to 600 HP. The first generation will take 500 HP. Try to put that into a stock Bravo.

Milord,

If your friend is blowing up Black Hawks, then they have over 600 HP per motor, or they are coming out of the hole hard.

Cord,

The LAST thing the BlackHawk was designed for was silent choice. Where did you get that from??? I would love to see those facts in print. Silent choice was not even around or an issue in 1994. The BlackHawk was designed for boats that have natural lifting ability and rode on the last 6 inches of the transom. Typically a cat application was the best for the BlackHawk, however, there are (3) V hulls that respond quite well to the drive. Donzi, Wellcraft, and OuterLimits made the three hulls. Two of them have LOTO Speed records. There is your trivia question for the night. Which 2 have speed records running BlackHawk drives?

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

Hey DT42,

I remember that Poker Run (2001). We were in the air a few times. That's when you have to be a good throttleman. I can remember one particular flight running around 80 when we hit that hole on Winnebago that was about 6 feet deep and 15 feet long. We both came out in flight, side by side, with the sticks back counting Thousand One, Thousand Two, Thousand Three, HIT IT!. That's what offshore is all about...

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

Cord,

Just curious. The picture that you posted that shows a BlackHawk with (2) cleavers got my interest. The original BlackHack had a 'big-eared' (3) blade Mirage type prop first to scoop up water, then throw that into the counter-rotating cleaver. The props have to be installed on the spline and be 'timed' to accomplish that. The (2) five blade cleavers shown in your picture do not appear to be timed, and I question the amount of water you will pick up with the the first prop to make the second efficiant. How fast does that boat in the picture run??? (BTY - anyone that needs help timing BlackHawks, do not hesitate to call or email me...

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

Ran the blackhawk on a Baja ... worked great. Less working of the throttles in the blue water rollers. I am a Blackhawk fan ..... just keep it cool and change the oil regularly. Small, lighter boats seem to be the best applications.
I ran a ballast tank in the front of the boat to help keep the bow down and adjust for varying water conditions..... Maybe why the drive worked so well in my application.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

This seems like the perfect point to add that I have a brand new one with the latest gears in the box. I think it needs a good home. Please forgive this commercial announcement.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

HAA, we forgive you. BAM BAM I may need some trim pump parts. Still working on it.

Mark, I remember that run exactly as stated. I know I was WOT and we seemed to be side by side for the whole first leg 15 mi....that was cool.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

Ot-I know that you have a pair on the back of your boat, but let's look at the pic that I posted above. I'm going to simplify this for the other members that are not as familiar with the drive as we are. Do you see those slots in front of the props? That's were merc piped the through hub exhaust. This was done to ventilate the props loose when planing and shifting. I assumed that they were using silent choice to do this due to the restrictions of the standard wishbone and transom. On my boat, I don't have silent choice. Instead, I connected a hose to the block off plate and ran that to a point above the water line. Gary also suggested just removing the exhaust bellows. Wish I had thought of that because it would have been much simpler.

As for the speed records, I'm certain that several people were using them for this purpose. I know that Archer made a good run for the kilo record. I believe that they rolled the boat (P-29?) and never got it though. I also believe this would have been done on the west coast, but that's only a guess.

Those props were on a Donzi Blackhawk. I presume that this is one of the boats that you were refering to as the drive working well on. I guess that credit should be give to Donzi for redesigning the hull for the drive, but we both would have to admit that results seem to be mixed. It almost seems as if Donzi put too much rocker into the hull and ended up with some freeky handling issues. Anytime you have to drop tab to retain control, you have some handling issue. Anyways, the owner of the Blackhawk was at Lake X having it dialed in. At this time Merc was already planning on closing the facility down so they sold him the props for a song. I too have wondered about the timing of the props. I wasn't sure if there was anything to be timed though. They counter rotate, so they will never be in phase, right? Something I'll bring up to Gary the next time I see him. Anyways, the cleavers above will never in time. The reason being is that the front prop is a 4 blade while the rear prop is a 5 blade.

Check out the pic below, notice the two bolts on the back cap? Do your drives have those bolts? I all but positive that my drive doesn't.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

Cord, what are the props in the upper picture in your Last post?

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

Those are some custom made Hoss chopper props. They're 27's, so they're a bit small for me. With the cup coming around the tip like that, these may just provide the bow lift you're missing. We'll see.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

I have a set of BlackHawks on my 31SS Sonic. Since switching to the new gears I have had no problems. The boat runs great and I have no compliants, but you do have to learn how to manuver around the docks.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

In what way is it different? I would have thought it would have been a little easier.

Roby

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

robyw1,

Since you have (2) counter-rotating props on each drive, when you put a BlackHawk in gear be ready. It moves forward in a hurry. On the other hand, you can really get some fast 'reverse' response when you need it. They do take getting used to, but it does not take much to tame them. That question brings up an interesting point. If carberated, your idle may need to be set higher than normal to handle the demand of the BlackHawk when going into gear. On most factory setups with the BlackHawk, EFI engines were used to compensate for the load associated when going into gear, and keep the motors from 'snubbing'.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

But shifting the Hawk is like BANG!!!!!, I hate that part. It literally shudders my whole boat and usually elicits a comment or two from people around the dock. I installed a neutral safety switch override switch so i can fire it in gear.

Robyw1, my cat idles at approx 7 mph. Makes dock and trailer approaches very interesting to say the least :)

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

I wasn't joking though when I said that my bh was shifting softer than the bravo. BUT! I had this ventilation thingy and I was trimming the drive up so the props were near the surface. Trimming up like that also seemed to kill the speed. If you guys wanted to experiment with my technique, it would be interesting to compare notes.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

Cord,

Right On. Trimming up does help slow the wake speed down. I have to pull one out of gear, or else trim up, but I don't like doing that to the universals. AP, my BH's shift nice and smooth - no bang. Not sure what's going on with yours. I also have EFI and small blocks, so I imagine the torque is a lot less. The EFI really does help smooth things out tho...

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

I wish I could lower the idle speed out of gear but my 500efi idles at 900 and thats that. Shift it and it hits hard.It wasn't ever programmed to have a Hawk on it so maybe thats the difference. I am going to play with more ventilation this winter,like a snorkel that extends above the water by a few more inches to see if that will soften thngs up alittle.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

Why not send the computer out to somebody to reprogram it? They should be able to lower that idle very easily for minimal cost. Whipple woud be one person to talk to. I'm certain that there are others out there that have broken the code.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

Mine is setup on two 502 efi"s that have just been rebuilt. They idle about 900 as well and I have no problem with them making any kind of a hard shift noise. You should have that checked out. Like the others have said, you do cruise at idle very quickly. I think mine is more like 10MPH or so and I get some dirty looks sometimes driving in no wake zones, but I have learned to deal with it. I do not feel comfortable letting anyone else drive the boat in a marina or close quarter enviroment though. If you were to lower the idle speed the engines will die when you shift into gear because of the load being put on the engines.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

My ECU's were reprogrammed to compensate for the new cams and to try to lower the idle speed but we have not gotten it just right yet. Sometimes when I shift the engines still die. I expect to have the problem worked out in the next few weeks.

Well I am out of here for the day. My company (BEA Systems) has given everyone the day off for the end of our quarter. Here at the Dallas location they rented Sneaky Petes on Lewisville Lake in TX for the day for a company party. All of us are taking our boats out for some fun. If anyone else is in the area by sure to say hi. I will be out there all weekend.

31SS Sonic
"Shameless"
ST31

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

Tyler Crocket Marine is who is being used to reprogram my ECU's.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

One of the reasons Merc put Blackhawks behind 502EFI's is the mild cams and the low idle speeds. The 502EFI can be made to idle at 600 rpm. If you use a Blackhawk behind an engine with a big cam you will have problems. They tend to break components when shifted at too high rpm and they idle much faster than single prop outdrives.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

I have a carbed engine and it idles at 750. Drops right in without dying. Does lug at idle with the drive trimmed in though.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

my 500 efi thinks it has a little more cam than it does, used 1.8 to one rockers instead of stock 1.7's Idle is a little lumpy so slowing the idle down isn'tgoing to be easy without a serious reprogram to adjust timing and idle air bypass. The problem then would be stalling at shift I am sure. I think a big part of the hard shift thing is the fact that it has 2 31pitch props in the water( big load). I will try Cords trim it up deal today and see how that works, otherwise I'll stick to the shift,then start it method I have been using.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

wowwwww guys what allot input about the blackhawk, i like the fast cruising speed, i use the boat allot for cruising, but like to go fast when i need to, i would like to buy a usde one ore a new if the price is OK, i have a BAJA H2X with a 454mag MPI would the drive give me 5 mph more gain?? i was just asking for info on the drive @ speedwake and here it is . i have some another question now i run a Bravo1 with 1.50 gears and a perfect EXCLERATOR 23p from Houston propeller!! i hit some times the rev what gears and prop pitch do i need on the blackhawk any help would be very helpful!! sorry for the bad spelling.

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

Airpacker,
my Inglis is not so good please can you explain what all this means thanks allot!!

NO because the loss of trim control, the loss of migrange cruise speed and the wicked docking speed

Re: Bravo 1 to Blackhawk?
 

Bubba.

What? What are you trying tosay / ask?