Aluminum heads
 

I'm looking for two sets of fully ported Aluminum heads (coated) - does anyone have a competitive source for these? I was looking for Canfield but an not locked into them - just want a good flowing head. Thanks for any help.

Re: Aluminum heads
 

What's up Craig looking to blow up drives are we!!!

Re: Aluminum heads
 

AFR makes a great head, flows well and is coated for marine application.

Re: Aluminum heads
 

AFR (Air Flow Research) has one of the best flowing heads out there. They have a coating refered to as "hard anodizing" which is about a $190 option. The hard anodizing is especially beneficial with salt water applications.

Check out their website: Airflowresearch.com

Re: Aluminum heads
 

There was a thread here a few weeks ago about this same topic. Do a search. I ended up going with Edelbrock aluminum heads. For 750.00 each they come already hard anodized and also come with HD stainless intakes and Inconel exhaust valves. The reason I went with them is because they are a direct bolt on piece. Nothing has to be changed/moved. Yes the AFR's will outflow them but they also have raised exhaust ports which meant I would have to rework my CMI header setup. (I have twins engine setup) Also on the front where your brkts mount you would have to drill and tap larger holes for mounting. I spoke to Edelbrock, Dustin Whipple, and a few others and they all said out of the box these heads would give me 45-50 horse over the cast iron ones. Also I wanted aluminum because I am upping the boost from 6lbs to 8 lbs and aluminum gives you more safety when doing so. Do your research before buying. As I found more flow/HP isn't the only thing to consider.

Also having worked in the automobile industry for 24 years, I have learned that car makers do alot of durability testing on the stuff they use. Mercury also uses the same heads on the 525 motors. They have a reputation to keep, and I'm sure they tested the hell out of these heads before going with them. Again they may not be the best out there, but I am looking for a clean no hassle install and many years of trouble free use on the water.

Re: Aluminum heads
 

How does Dart race heads compare?

Re: Aluminum heads
 

Dart/World/Brodix/AFR/Canfiled/E-brock all make good products, but all are just a part of the combination. Select a target goal that you want to shoot for then build the combo to reach it.

Chris

Re: Aluminum heads
 

Canfield heads come hard coated and you could choose between a few different combustion chamber sizes since there are cnc'ed to suit.

Re: Aluminum heads
 

does anyone besides Raylar make alum. heads for 496's yet ??

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I'm leaning towards the Canfeild heads - how are they prices vs. the Edelbrock's??

Re: Aluminum heads
 

I checked on the Canfields. I was quoted 1900.00 per pair which included springs and retainers but did not include hard anodizing, so add another 200.00 or so.

The only reason I didn't go for them was that the exhaust ports were raised 1/2 inch and you would also have to drill and tap the holes on the front to mount brkts etc.

I just re-read an above post and the ones I was quoted on were NOT cnc'd. That is a few more bucks.

Re: Aluminum heads
 

350cc Big Block heads, full roller cam assy "starting at" $2158.00/ Many upgrade options avalible.
Hard coat was extra.
BTW, I have them on my motors and wished I would have had them hard coated.

Re: Aluminum heads
 

Good heads cost a lot of money. My AFR's flow 380 in./290 ex. at .6 lift. I started with AFR 335 CNC heads but didn't get all of the performance increase I expected so I sent them to Jim Valako for a chamber and exhaust port. They are unreal now. At .3 lift the exhaust flows more than a stock Chevy at .7 lift. It comes at a price however. I have over $3000 in each set and I think I got a good price. As a good salt water alternative, Jim can port a set of Dart Iron Eagles to just about the same numbers for less money.

Re: Aluminum heads
 

I was told that Canfield is actually making the Edelbrock heads now - not sure if that's true or not. I'm hoping that we don't need to make any exhaust changes - I don't want to have to do that.

Re: Aluminum heads
 

Canfield does make heads for other companies, but E-brock is not one of them.

Chris

Re: Aluminum heads
 

Canfields exhaust ports are raised .600 just like AFR's. I thought you were looking for fully ported heads. From AFR my intakes outflow Canfields by an average of 11%. With work from JimV. my exhausts outflow Canfields by an average of 15%. I'll post the numbers if anyone really wants them. They probably outflow Edelbrock by 30%. Cost is always an issue but you get what you pay for.

Re: Aluminum heads
 

Aluminum Heads are the funk...........

Re: Aluminum heads
 

$1350 for the edelbrocks. cpperformance.com

Re: Aluminum heads
 

Well you guys, I suppose we could probably argue over this for a good long time, and would have to respectfully disagree with some on this, but I would tend to believe a longer duration camshaft is really only necessary where the flow of a certain head design needs help. I know the correct combination for a certain application is paramount, but I also believe there is potentially more power to be had in a set of heads than a longer duration camshaft.

Anyway, as far as aluminum heads go, whether it's a less expensive brand vs the more expensive ones, I still think that if a person can swing the "green" they're a good investment, have some nice advantages over the cast iron heads. :)

Re: Aluminum heads
 

Here is why I went with the Edelbocks:

1) My new boat is supercharged with stock engines and was NOT set up correctly.
2) Going from cast iron to aluminum will help me when I add more boost as they can cool better.
3) The Edelbrocks already come with the good intakes and Inconel exhaust valves.
4) I spent 3000.00 for two pairs of heads.
5) I can sell my cast iron ones on Ebay for at least 1500.00 for both pairs, thus my net cost is 1500.00
6) It would cost me more than 1500.00 to buy the good valves and have them installed and have some port work done on the cast ones.
7)Everything bolts up the same as stock
8) If I want I can have some port work done for even more power.
9) All told for a small investment I can have a nice set of heads and good performance for around 1000.00 over stock and everything will be new. All told about the same cost as a valve job on stock set, but I will be farther ahead overall.
10) But most of all I can be cool now that I have aluminum heads man :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D :D

When all the dust settles I should have 100 HP more per motor than originally set up, and this comes from the heads, some other minor touches and a 2 lb increase in boost.

Re: Aluminum heads
 

I have had 8 sets of AFR heads go through my shop. None of them came close to their advertised numbers on the exhaust side. They also post numbers with a "cheater pipe" which makes the numbers look better. They have a problem with the cnc program that gouges the venturi area below the seat insert. The intakes flow very good, within 1.5 percent on my bench. I would recommend anyone have them flow checked before making a cam choice. When the exhaust ports are fixed they will flow 330 cfm w/pipe.

Re: Aluminum heads
 

Hi Jim: Have you had any Brodix heads go through your hands? How do the BB-2X or the new BB-3X stack up to the heads mentioned above? What I notice on the websites and flow charts from head manufacturers is that flow numbers on the intake do go up with larger models, but exhaust numbers don't seem to move as much. How is that supposed to work, especially with blowers?

Re: Aluminum heads
 

Tom,

I have not seen the -2 X or 3X yet. The advertised numbers look good though. Good point on the exhaust numbers. It's been said that a boosted motor is the same as running a N/A motor one atmosphere below sea level. I can agree with that for the intake side only. There is a ton more cylinder pressure on the exhaust valve with boost. In the big blocks the 1.880 valve seems to flow the best. The cylinder wall will shroud the valve if it gets much bigger. I tried up to a 1.940 valve with little gains. I guess all you can do is add duration.

Re: Aluminum heads
 

Jim, how many more degrees of exhaust duration vs intake would you suggest in a blower application. Intake flowing 400 cfm exhaust at 305 cfm.

Re: Aluminum heads
 

Jim, funny you should say that because I also have different views on this subject.

I left Dustin Whipple some (ridiculous questions as Richard Cranium 572 put it) in the TMP 1600 thread to answer since he said he knew everything about supercharged engines, although he didn't answer them. So here goes some of my views.

What do my I/E ratios need to be in supercharged apps? I believe they need to be between 70 to 90 percent.
Why? The engine is still a pump and when you build a high eff. pump you try to build it to have very low frictional losses and extract as much energy you can from the fuel you put to it. The object is to get the maximum VE you can for the CI you picked and have as much USABLE HP you can get in the RPM band it will live in. A lot of times this does not mean bigger ports or cams just the best combination that yields the best results in the REAL WORLD it operates in. Once you have this combination, now It's time to supercharge. You don't build a supercharged engine, you build a eff. N/A engine you supercharge later. Believe it or not the more eff the N/A engine is the more comp. ratio you will get away with with less octane fuel. This is because an eff. engine will burn the air and fuel more eff. and completely. I have my own views on what the best static and dynamic comp ratios need to be, but I'll keep this to myself. So your I/E ratios need to be the same for a high VE NA engine.

Does my exhaust runner need to be bigger? NO
Why? Because you did not change the pump when you supercharged this engine. It's my belief that the exhaust only needs to flow more if you change the CI once you have an eff. combination.

What lobe sep. angle does my cam need to be? It needs to be the same as it was.
Why? Because when I made this good combination (depending on what the app. is for) the best cam that yielded the best usable HP for my app. did not change. Just because I now supercharged it doesn't mean fuel and air will be pushed out the left open valves on a tight lobe sep. angle. This does not happen. The air has just changed around my motor, my motor doesn't know it just got boosted. It thinks I just moved closer to sea level and the adjustments that need to be made when this really does happen need to be made now. It still has to be tuned different.

Does the speed of the intake runner speed up when supercharged? NO
Why? Because my pump didn't change. The air is now denser and still moves the same speed as before. The only thing that will change the speed in the runner now will be more RPM.

As far as exhaust valve sizes, I want to point out the bigger the valves get in the head the less material you have between the valves and when you build more HP you build more heat so the thinner this is on a supercharged endurance engine the more you need to cross you fingers.

Any time you build a supercharged endurance engine you also have to keep in mind all the heavy duty things you must have to make it live and then try to build it to have the most NA HP you can for the app. It's used for.

All the things I've said are my beliefs and are food for thought weather you believe them or not.

Re: Aluminum heads
 

GPM Honestly I would be afraid to give advice for blower motors. I used to do a lot of blower motors a few years back but most of my attention is N/A engines because the majority of my customers have bravo drives and we are making good power with our N/A 540's.

Maybe one of the blower gurus can help out.
The more I learn the dumber I get.

Re: Aluminum heads
 

Exhaust duartion numbers are determined by the following factors, I/E% ratio, CID, RPM. Importance of each is listed in order with I/E% being 50% of the equation.

The following is a general rule of thumb that I have found over the years of designing cams for NA, Blower, Turbo, and NOS engines.

At 75% I/E ration the cam should be a single pattern.

For every 2 degrees less of I/E ratio below 75% you need to add a degree of exhaust duration to the exhaust.

For every 2 degrees more of I/E ratio above 75% you need to add a degree of intake duration.

Now CID and rpm both play into this with each being around 25% of the equation, but if you use the above you will get pretty damn close.

How do I know this to be true. Over 12 + years of feedback on dyno's and real world testing in circle track, marine, drag, truck pull, road race, and air racing.

Chris

Re: Aluminum heads
 

I'm just curious, thinking about what Tom Cat said about BBC heads. The intakes flow keeps getting better while the exhaust seems to be staying the same. When you start forcing 800 or so cfm into each cylinder what does it take to get it out. How does the 75% IE ratio work in this situation. Would you figure 75% of the 800? How much hp is lost because the cylinder hasn't been evacuated.

Re: Aluminum heads
 

The best NA engine is the best foundation for centrifugal supercharging, at least that's my experience. So I like NOBODY's take on this. I still wonder about the exhaust flow. Higher cylinder pressure means more pressure differential across the valve and port, and denser exhaust gases, so the exhaust on port any higher HP engine will automatically flow more exhaust mass . What happens when you dyno an engine with one of these heads that makes 400 CFM on intake but only 250 on the exhaust. If you then bring the exhaust up to 300 what is the result?

Re: Aluminum heads
 

I heard a QUOTE one time that said----
When you build a turbocharged motor why worry about how much power it makes NA just put the turbo on and keep adding boost till you get the power you want
Answer---
If I have a lazy dog and I put a turbo on him, then I have a lazy dog with a turbo on him

I think the truth behind this is you can have a lazy motor with too little of cam and heads and also be lazy with too big of cam and heads, either way you have a lazy motor. If you then supercharge this motor you WILL have more power, but not what you could of had.

Re: Aluminum heads
 

With dogs, cats, and farm animals aside. I was just wondering what a couple more degrees of duration on the exhaust side of the cam would do on a 1400 hp engine. Right now there is an 8 degree difference, thought someone might have tried a 10 or 12 degree spread.

Re: Aluminum heads
 

GPM,
What the I/E % ratio?

Chris

Re: Aluminum heads
 

76%

Re: Aluminum heads
 

NO!
I want to talk about farm animals!

Re: Aluminum heads
 

GPM,
By adding to 8 or more degrees of duration to the exhaust you are going to just blow power out the pipes over the average powerband of the engine.

I had a good conversation with an engine builder in a different "arena" last night and the topic of duration split came up with his particular engine type. It has an I/E of around 80% and he runs reverse splits in his stuff. As far as the "majority" they think he is crazy but one of his customers is the fastest "cam only" cars in the country. My point is the "establishment" has gone with large duration splits over the years. It is my belief in the next 4 to 6 years you will see more and more single pattern, tighter duration spreads, and some reverse stuff as cylinder heads get better. Look at the OEMS. GM now has a factory car with an engine that has more intake duration then it does exhaust.

Chris

Re: Aluminum heads
 

Here Bill, I will give you a list of customers you can call:
Midwest Motorsports
800 262 5033 Ask for Brett Meier, the owner
Has multiple dyno results for Marine, Circle, and Drag. Multiple cam tests over the years.

Performance Unlimited
954 438 0237 Ask for Marty, the owner Multiple replaced cams on dyno'ed combinations. I think Laz will vouch for Marty that he builds some nice stuff.

Gary Watson Racing
409 753 2370, Ask for Gary, the owner. No dyno results just track improved combos.

Shaw and Sons Machine
270 678 2565. Ask for Jeremy. Multiple BBC combo's with duration splits based on I/E ratio

Thunder Racing
877 516 7223 Ask for Geoff, the Owner. Multiple dyno comparisons on camshafts based on I/E ratio.

Balls in your court Bill. You can call any or all. All of wchich know me and one of them I don't do any work for but I respect his views on making power. All of which have done multiple cam test, cam changes on combos with all types of cylinder heads including high flowing stuff. Also I would invite you to call John at Canfield and get his view on cam duration based on I/E ratio. Then I would call Joe Petelle at HVH and ask him about cam duration on exhaust with high flowing exhaust ports.

There you go, I have supplied the resources now you do the investigating.

Chris

Re: Aluminum heads
 

Tomcat,
Please explain to Bill about Midwest Motorsports involement with your product with a twin engine Black Thunder that they did the engines for using your set up. Please give us your opinion on Bretts engine knowledge since he has been grouped as a "Circle Jerk" track guy.

Chris

Re: Aluminum heads
 

Bill,
I have supplied several customers as reference to back my findings up. I don't know why you find it so hard to call these guys. If I do it you just call BS. I even supplied you some with toll free numbers so you are not out of pocket.
or we can do this;
A neutral board member willing to test camshafts that has no affilation with either of us. Each of us will send him a camshaft based on the rpm range the engine will run in. The member is to supply all the information on the combo. We each will then select and send cams for the test. The one that makes the most average HP will be declared the winner and the looser will pay for the the winners camshaft. The board member willing to do the test keeps both cams.

So if you want will through theory and past experiences to the side and just prove it here on the board.

Chris

Re: Aluminum heads
 

Bill,
I don't have a shop. I do sit behind a computer everyday and design/quote/ and sell parts. I am not on the front lines anymore, gave that up years ago. I would think a person of your background and knowledge would take up this test since you do this work everyday and in your own words " I think in theory and have nothing to back it up. So since you can pull "what works" from the industry you should have no problem making more power then this redneck from TN.

Chris

Re: Aluminum heads
 

Just a note guys-- I'm not liking where this thread is going. I suggest you guys chill out or someone will poof it.

Everybody has their own ideas/opinions. We don't need to get so uptight about it !!!!