OPA speed brackets
 

OK one more time for those of us who are a little slow (me)
How do you calculate the speeds to determine which class a boat will race? I understand the rpm x prop pitch formula but what % is allowed for prop slip? I am looking for top speed and lap averages
Thanks mw

Re: OPA speed brackets
 

Ok

P5 65 average 70 max
P4 75 average 80 max
P3 85 average 90 max
P2 95 average 100 max
P1 105 average 115 max
10 % slip
If at the race we do your calc and your boat is off. We will run it with you and make the proper adjustment as we are aware all boats have a different slip. These were the rules for 2005. And they will be the same for 2006. I hope this helps you out. If not Email me Smittymarine@aol. Smitty

Re: OPA speed brackets
 

Anthony had done a great job with props and rev.limiters.The P5 class are all within 1 to 2 mph.As seen in Camden, 1st place place postion changed 4 times.

Re: OPA speed brackets
 

Cant get any simpler than that. Thanks for the clarification

Re: OPA speed brackets
 

The complete rule book is on the "paperwork" page of www.oparacing.com.

Re: OPA speed brackets
 

Mike if we run your boat in the current rule configuration,we have to run in P1 against Jay Muller in his 40 FT Motion,or if we watch our GPS We might be able to run P2,With the top speed of your boat and the rules it will I am sorry to say, hard to be competitive,damn you have Bill Gazzell running a 30 ft Spectre running in P3 or P 4,100 mph boat,at least when it ran with its previous owner,twins running against singles is all this as we have already proven fair,no,.get a solid book of rules ,Smitty told us last year that the twins would not be in the same class,but you still have a 38 footer running against a 27 foot single,and you have in P1 a 40 foot motion watching how fast he goes because he is racing a 36 skater with half the power,that is not right,put all the boats in there proper classes and alot the of the problems will take care of themselves,Why in p1 do you have a max speed that actually is much slower than some of the boats are capable of,you have one boat that can run 130 plus and one that can run 100,not fair to have a boat run against a top speed rather than actuall racing for who had the best set up for that particular race on that week it takes all of that out of the equastion,but then again some people want to be able to have just enough edge so when that need it they can stay out infront,jUST MY 02

Re: OPA speed brackets
 

I'm sorry, but tired of the whinning.

I'm one of those 27' single motor only 425hp that ran against 38 foot boats with twins................most fun I had racing all year!

It ain't a perfect system, but its the one we got right now, try to make the best of it. If you don't enjoy speed bracket racing build a SV or SC and race OSS or SBI where you have spec class racing, thats not what P-Class is all about.

I'll tell you what, I cover your OPA entry fee :D

Brian

Re: OPA speed brackets
 

Bill first of all, we said we would not run the twin engines in P5 and we did not. P4 is twin or single. If you came and watched. Every dog has his day. In the ocean the Big twins have an advantage. In the calm they are sitting ducks. Camden for instance. Dominated by single 27 ft boats. Cambridge, twin 30 ft Panther wins with single 27 on his A@@. Point Pleasant, Lavey craft F1 boat single 425 ran right with Auigie. As far as Muller, We Propped him down for Camden and ran P1 just to complete the field with the ageement of the other P1 Boats. Cambridge he ran PX . Everyone wants to win. And place themselves where the feel they can. We also work towards that end. Nothing personal Bill, but for all your comments in the past years, you still havn't hit the water. I hear no complaints from the racers. Your input is more than welcome, but common lets get it wet. Smitty

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Come on Bill, your not talking about our boat again? The boat must be getting FAMOUS! Anyone want to buy her? Bill? Good starter boat.

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Smitty and Augie,I am not trying to piss you off,I have a boat that I can run I just cant see racing it in P1 or P2 where it should be because even when I try to prop it down it does not fit in the classes you have unfortunetly.I am a huge fan of the P classes,but feel there are some needed changes,thats all.Also we were told last year that the twins and singles would not run together in P4,correct me if Mark H and I were not told that Smitty,that is the main reason that Eddie Simmons has not been racing with OPA,as for Faster Daddy,I am not whining,I am stating facts that in fact would benifit you,it should not matter what the water conditions are you should be competitive against one another week in and week out,Period.

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Bill I already spoke to Eddie Simmons. he is racing. Their boat was so far off the mark on Point Pleasant, you cant expect the rest of the fleet to slow down and wait for you. Ask Mark H. He was telling me how suprised he was when Lavey tore them up. The Lavey doesnt even run 80. How fast is your boat? The Limit of 115 has been to keep the racing safe with smaller boats on the same race coarse. Never did we state that P4 would be a single engine class.

Re: OPA speed brackets
 

Hyper1...

We've been through this topic time and time again. Your perfect world exists. its called Spec class. and you can find it with SBI or OSS. If thats what you want, go buy a boat to race with them.

You will never get the parity that you are seeking in P class because you have 5 classes to fit too many different boats and powers combos. Is it perfect ? NO. Does it work? Sometimes. Its been stated in other posts, If you want to race, build a boat to fit into a specific class. Im not sure what kind of boat you have, but if you cant prop down to run 115, you dont belong in P-class. Im sure Its difficult to have one of the fastest Poker Run boats and then come and try to fit into a P-class.

If you really want to race, and its sounds like you do. Go buy a boat that fits into a specific class.

What bothers me more than anything, is not someone complaining that the rules are fair or unfair. But a non current racer or equipment owner who complains all the time and makes little or no effort to get out on the water. If you don't think you can prop down and fit into a class, fine. you will not race and thats your choice. Therfore, you should have NO say in how the rules are developed or enforced.

Just my opinion....No offense intended

PS...And, if possible, could you please use spaces between your sentences? Your posts are difficult to read. :)

thanks

Re: OPA speed brackets
 

Oh ....one more thing. We were never told that twins would not be running in P-4. We were told the more Dominant P-4 boats would run P-3 and the more dominant P-3 boats, would move up to P-2. This would make it possible for the more dominant P-5 boats ie: faster single/27,28 footers to move up to P-4 and allow for the smaller 24, 26 foot boats and SOBs to have some fair competition in P-5. That didnt happen because the boat count, early in the season, didnt warrant it. The only way to get the faster more dominant 27/28 foot boats out of P-5, is to make it possible for them to compete in P-4. I shouldnt neccessarily say faster 28 foot boats, Because there are some 24s that are faster than some of the 28s.

Once again...just my opinion.

Re: OPA speed brackets
 

Hyper, not to pick on you, but if your going to biotch about the rules, at least offer some reasonable solutions. Just biotching does nothing. If you can't clearly see an answer, then niether can anyone else.

We know it's not perfect, never said it was....

Why don't you run in PX with JEM and some others in Cambridge?

Re: OPA speed brackets
 

Smitty, I think the racers in general don't have as big a problem with the brackets and speeds of the brackets. It would seem to be the question of how will you monitor and enforce the rules. This is going to be what really keeps people coming back for more. Now the stakes are higher with purse money and people are going to expect a fare shake at the money. What ideas do you have in mind to make this happen? Are you looking for suggestions or do you have this taken care of?
I am so proud of OPA and all the momentum that is building in P class.Keep up the great work guys.
GREAT PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS
AVERAGE PEOPLE TALK THINGS
SMALL PEOPLE TALK ABOUT PEOPLE
I think OPA are GREAT PEOPLE
MD :D

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Bruce what makes you think I am not an equipment owner or going to race because you are wrong I just dont happen to agree with what I am seeing,I will be at the meeting to here what everyone has to say and than make my decision at that time.Ron P I am not biotching and I have presented solutions in the past as well as many others but they were not interested in them,Mark has made many suggestions as well but also he was told,no changes will be made.Do you still have your B&M sucks signs,see I have been around for a while and I do appreciate all of the efforts that go in to promoting this sport,you are going to have alot of boats this year thanks to those efforts and Mr Haggin,lets hope it lasts.Bruce sorry about my typing and running everything together,not one of my specialties.

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[QUOTE=1HYPER1]Do you still have your B&M sucks signs
QUOTE]

Wow did that come from the Way Back machine.

Wish I had a photo of that. Dems were the days! :D

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Ron I do have photos of the signs,I will send them to you I will hook you up.Blasterbro,I will not go and beat up my equipment to say I had fun,I want to win and have fair competition period.PS my boats are not crap.I hope Reggie doesnt read your post.

Re: OPA speed brackets
 

You just don't get it do you!

We are competitive, week in and week out! We are not asking for any rule changes we like the challenge of running with different types of boats. Like I said before, it was the most fun we had racing all year.

You on the other hand sound like you are affraid of a challenge or the competition. My young girls don't bi$%h and whine as much as you do. Just my .02

Brian

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I think everything in the organization has improved in the past two years.I would like to see the results reported more accurate on the OPA site and here as well. I been beat in P-5 before but I don't want to hear it this year when I come out to spank you guys! :D :D

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thats the spirit :drink:

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Mad dog,
I know your not P-5. I was just refering to your post as most guys are happy here with OPA! I know I am. :evilb:
PS: Smitty I will commit to as many as possible but I am homeless building a new house and in a winter rental that goes to 6500.00 per week Memorial day so you understand my priority. I will be there as much as possible!

Re: OPA speed brackets
 

Thanks Randy. Our ears are open. We need to always keep in mind, that there is always room for improvement. The P classes are pretty easy to regulate, as long as the effort is there to enforce it. You are right, no matter what you have for race sites, or how much you have in a purse, If the racing isn't fair, you have nothing. We will use the prop calc and rpm. Everyone must have an MSD rev box. Mounted on top of the motor, with all wiring exposed. We will issue chips. If your boat proves not to perform at the calculated rpm, we will run it with you and make the nessesary adjustments. If you have a merc motor we can plug into it to check your RPM merc motors will not need an MSD box. If the effort is made by tech, the classes will be very close. There has been a number of calls in ref to F1. If someone wants to take the lead on that, we will extend the purse and run the class. Engine rule there has always been a topic of disscussion. I am all ears. Smitty

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In my opinion in OPA F1 should run in P-class. With 3-5 different motor options and different drives options its not a spec class any more. I would rather run in P class against 10 other boats than 2-3 that would show in F-1. If it could ever get back to one motor then maybe it would have a shot. Why add another class and dilute the existing 5 classes? Spec racing is great but it also requires a lot of tec at the race and I don't feel OPA needs the extra work.

Another idea is speed run all the boats prior to the race at calm water events. We all have it backward.The racers should have to prove to the inspectors that there boat cant break out of the bracket. Most guys break out and wait for there team to get caught. If they don't get caught they win. :mad: Also at the end of the race speed run the first place boats in each class again. If there is a speed seen of more than 2 mph over there class then they are DQ. This would force everyone to run full throttle if they have a shot at winning. Yes it takes time and man power but would be one way of insuring no sandbagging.

You said you were all ears!
MD :D

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David Jobes and I won a race in P5/APBA the first year, Pop and someone else took the boat out and ran 70.9 and we were DQ'ed. That boat wouldn't have a chance now in P5 with purpose built A class race boats with 600+ Hp running P5.

Re: OPA speed brackets
 

Okay,

I know this is an OPA post and I primarily race with SBI/APBA, but in an effort to ensure both organizations keep their rules somewhat the same, here's my two cents:

The more rules and restrictions you put on the P-classes, the more you create a spec class...I think Bruce eluded to that already.

Typhoon's post about running the boats in calm water has merit, although I'm not sure about the feasibility. I've had comments about my boat having 630 hp (now only 620 hp after rebuild) and how well that engine should get us around the course, but when I tell folks the boat weighs 6,200 pounds, then they think twice. But I do know there are P5 boats we've raced against that have a better horsepower to weight ratio than we do. Is that fair? Yes...it's P-class racing...not a spec class.

Nonetheless, anyone that whole heartedly objects to that idea of having their boat run to verify the speed, I have one comment: "stop sandbagging!" :eek:

Sean

Re: OPA speed brackets
 

Several of these ideas have merit but one must consider the limited time, personal and resources, In an ocean race where is the calm water to test flat out ?. It is not a perfect world, so some compromises must be made. I am sure if a team feels strongly that they are in the wrong class the opa would address the situation. The reason I wish to race with the OPA boys, is that seem to be having more fun then any other race body out there. After all this should be fun! Surely nobody races for the money, there aint none mw

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I fully agree with Randy. I have suggested running a "qualifying run" with each boat in the past to just be told it is logistically impossible!
If you ran each boat with a qualified tech inspector on board to make sure it's WOT to a radar gun!! Come back from the run, take a peak under the hatch to make sure all is well, seal the hatch!!
I know that this will take time, but it will add to the excitement for both the racers and fans alike!
We could do something like an 8AM Saturday morning meeting mandatory for at least one member of each team. Speed trials from 9AM to Noon or so. All we end up doing on the Sat before is hang around anyway, more boating time! :D

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Im listening,sounds like a good idea.

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In Chattanooga this last year, Pop and crew put on speed runs on Friday and Saturday as part of the overall event. The closed course run on Saturday was on the race course.

Speed runs are doable, they'll take time, and most likely water conditions will change throughout the day...but if you make it part of the advertised event, maybe you'll get some folks out there to watch the qualifying speed run on Saturday because they can't make it to the race on Sunday.

Sean

Re: OPA speed brackets
 

put back sealed GPS to check top speed in every boat ,problem solved before this gets to crazy.

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I still agree with that suggestion.

When P class was first introduced, top speed was to be based on absolute best conditions. ie flat water, cool temps, light on fuel, 10-12 slip% etc etc......and, in APBA P-5 boats should not be able to run more than 70 on GPS. SBI was max avg speed of 70, which meant your boat needed to do 75 - 80. Thats what many of us set up to. Now SBI reduced their max avg lap speed to 65 and many have set up to that and OPA followed suit. And our boats will run 70 to 75.

I think we should consider going back to GPS. Its not costing us anything to race this year, so I think OPA should find a good GPS, test it, and have every team buy one. $ 200 - 250 aint gonna kill ya.

It would save a whole lot of time and BS. It worked with APBA and it can work now. I know we tried it with OPA, but we didnt use good GPS units and there were problems. But if we get decent units, mount them properly in a foam case, it should work fine.

I think its going to be tough to keep tabs on 20 to 25 boats on the course at one time. There is too much room for error.

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All valid points. The Gps even with the best of units are not fool proof. There will be spikes. No matter what you buy, how do we address that? The Prop calc if properly enforced, is very acurate. Can be backed up with a test run with Tech before the race. Or Speed runs, difficult to do, in some locations. One thing we could do is schedule a day and a common place for all. Test run the boats. Find a prop and PRM that gives you your fastest speed. That will then be the largest prop you will be allowed to run. Obviously you would want to be allowed to prop down for rough situations. Once your speed is determined. We will seal your Msd rev box, Your Motor, and drive. If the seals have to be removed for repairs, you will have to come back and re test the boat. Or If the racers are really interested in fair play, This will be a banner year for us. We have put forth a hugh effort to change the sport. Set your boat up Legal for your class and lets see how good you are.

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I like this idea.....still run what ya brung but sealing the motor and drives ensures no changes have been made after the tech.

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Then it's agreed seals are a good idea :D

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I would only feel slightly more comfortable with the GPS solution if there were 2 sealed units onboard. I know I would hate beating my boat up and racing my heart out, just to be DQ'd by some electronic glitch. Its not even a glitch, GPS's triangulate from space, not from sea level. Some good air and long hang time translates into a lot of distance covered on a flat surface.

I like the prop calc method. The only variation is the slip calc, this is unfortunately a huge range. A heavy old deep 24 deg bottom boat will make the prop slip 20% or more, compared to a new lighter 22 deg bottom boat, which may only slip 5-10%. Thats a 14 MPH difference for the same prop spinning the same RPM on two vastly different hull designs.
Why don't we assign slip percentages to hull type? Like newer lighter stepped hull boats, say 8-12%, twins, a little less. The older heavier tanks, 12-18% slip allowance. Slip% can be determined as a group. Just an idea to tighten up the competition a bit.

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Your still talking about alot of time and effort .GPS is still easiest simplest, most accurate, and thats coming from someone that lost the National championship in St.Pete. by a GPS of 90.4 in P-3,a short spike coming into the finish, that had no effect on the outcome of the race.I still believe that GPS is the way to go. Bottom line, I think you can assign a boat to the proper P class with a prop calc. but you need the GPS to control it , and insure good competitive racing.

Walt :drink:

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Prop & RPM Calc, with the sealing of the MSD box and prop checking sounds like the best and easy way to me.

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I don't know if you are only looking for input from just the racers that will be racing, but I will throw my idea out here anyway and if it works great! If not? At least I know I tried to give some input.

Here is the idea.

I did something in Camden that no one really knows about. Maybe one other person but that's about it.

I stood on the Battleship and snapped off photos of every boat as they went by on each lap.

Later that night I came home and popped the photos into the computer. With each photo taken, a time stamp, down to the second is built into the properties of the photos with the exact time it was taken.
From there, knowing the distance of the course, and knowing how long it took to do each lap or the entire race for that matter, I came up with the average lap speeds and total time it took to complete the race for each boat.

So here is my suggestion for you guys.

Have a video camera or two on tripods looking out to the start buoy with a timer on the video.

When the race is over, review the tape or DVD and record the times of each boat whether you want average lap speed or just base it on the total time it takes to complete the course for each boat.
This illiminates the scorers on the turn boats and any chance of human errors from a score boat.

This way, you know exactly who has broken out and who did not..

You have a total distance to cover with keeping under a certain mile per hour. Know what your distance is and do the math. Obviously if you come in under the least amount of time it should take, then you were running faster than you should have.


I don't think reviewing the tape would take as long as it would to tech inspect all the boats.
I hope this may help, and possibly just keep the rules as simple as possible.

Whatever you choose, be safe and have a great season!

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Shark,

Your idea has much credibility. It is also extremely close to the way lap times are figured at SPB/APBA races. It's simple, straight forward, and anyone positioned relatively close to the Finish Line can do it.

This also brings to mind the importance of big, clear numbers on your boat. If your numbers are not readable, how do you expect to be scored accurately? The SBI/APBA rulebook has very clear guidelines on size, background, and placement of numbers.

When boats are running deck to deck, the scorers have to read the numbers at an angle before they reach the Finish Line. Otherwise, they can't see the numbers on the boat behind the boat in their line of vision. Big, clear, numbers will help to make sure you get scored properly.

Good to see you back.