The controversy seems to be isolated to the P5, P4 classes. If they are breaking out, then maybe the speed brackets are too low. P1, P2,P3 never brokeout, and never came within 5 miles per hour of their average breakout speed, even at NC and Marathon the flatest races. Simple changes may help significantly. Start the P5 class 6 mph higher and have the average top end speed 7 mph different. Have each classes average, start at the lower speed classes top end, but finish the top P1 and P2 were they are and you should resolve 90% of the current problems.

I.E...................Average/ Top.................Aligns with
p-5....................71-78...........................f-1
p-4....................78-85............................svl
p-3....................85-92............................svl-f-2
p-2....................95-102............................s.s, s.v
p-1....................105-115..........................s.c, s.c.l

You'll notice the average speed in p-3,p-2 and p-1 are still the same numbers; they blend well also with pro-series classes. The final consideration maybe to (as P-5 did). Limit P-4 to 34-35 maximum length boats, which would only effect one boat and I understand he's moving to P-3, but need to confirm this information. Nothing has to change in the other P classes. This would eliminate alot of controversy. The boats would almost police themselves and the Tech crew and Inspection People would have an easier job. If your response is favorable I will bring these ideas up at the meeting in Ft. Lauderdale. I'll run it by Smitty from OPA in the meantime.

Thanks,
Walt

oooh them look interesting enough

Walt, interesting concept, but I don't think it's addressing the real problem with P-class racing. If you raise the max avg/top speeds, teams will simply figure out a way to squeak a few more mph from their boats, and we'll be right back where we are now, with breakouts.

I believe the problem is a verification issue - both in pre-race tech inspection, as well as on the race course with scoring. Rev limiting only works on boats with ignition systems with changable chips, and some teams don't have the capability to do it. And for the teams that can, rev-limiters are still not fool-proof. Gear ratios are another variable in the formula. These are not easy to verify, so Tech has to rely on the honor system while performing prop calc. And how do you verify or check prop slip? -another variable in prop calc.

Another problem is with scoring. Is the course measured pin-to-pin? With GPS coordinates? Or is it measured pre-race with a pace boat taking a sweeping run around the race course? Was the boat running at race speeds, hugging tight to the pins? Or taking a wide line in and out? NC is a good example where MANY teams broke out (this has been beaten to death in other threads), and we (I was one of them) find it hard to accept that "fast water" did it. Something else was amiss. P-classes are the only teams affected by a mis-measured course; a SV or SC team could care less it the course is 6.87 miles or 6.37. Big difference for us, though.

The old APBA (and GLSCS) P-class method using sealed GPS's worked very well. I have my own GPS on board and it's recall was never more than .2 mph different from the sealed GPS reading. Most of the time they were a match. I also knew when I was close to breaking out - instantaneously. No need to come off plane before the start/finish line to wait for the clock to catch up, no waiting for hours after the race for scores to be calculated. Tech would cut the ties off the GPS box at the ramp/crane and you had your answer right then. Instant gratification.

Would raising speeds make a difference? I have room to get 78 avg, 85 top speed from my boat. Most other teams do, too. But until there's a solid method for verifying these avg or top speeds, we're still going to have teams breaking out, and contesting whether they actually did or not.

Good thread... we need to get this figured out.

Cheers,
Brian

I also don't understand the importance of average lap speed. Would someone please help me on this.
If every boat was checked prior to the first race for max speed whats the problem? If you are local or with in 1-2 hours away you could even go to Smitty's and be tested anytime. This can be done in the bay anywhere.It would not have to be done on the race course. Its a starting point to put boats where they belong. After a race the winners should be run again to verify the boat was not capable of breaking out. Again it does not have to be on the course but just a straight line WOT run for aprox. 1 mile. Like Walt said, it only seems to be a problem in P5-P3. If thats the case then you are really only checking 3 boats as a post race inspection in the water. 1 inspector for less than 1 hour. Like I posed before, we need to prove we CANT break out to be in a class not the other way around where we breakout and wait to see if we got caught. If we all follow this its back to WOT racing all day and not this craze bracket style racing where you are looking at a stop watch . Maybe Im wrong in thinking we all want to run WOT (wide open throttle). Speak up if you like WOT or if you like stop watch racing.
MD

Brian,I agree if you look at the other posts I'm much in favor of GPS over average speed and state the reasons why . I offer this only as partial help, and not a solution .I still believe that average speed cannot work and you have to control by top end speed, GPS is the only way currently to do that .I have fallen on deaf ears for 2 years supporting top end controls over average controls .I suggest the speed changes as help ,to help prevent incedents such as the worlds.

Walt

I Agree With Walt The Gps Top Speed Worked Good For Apba Never Had Any Problems Average Speed Has To Many Variables Just My Two Cents

Harry

I have posted on this topic before, I would eliminate any and all GPS from the boat to begin with, if you set up your boat to run in a bracket then why would you need a gps. I have seen many on-boards race videos with the throttle man checking out the gps instead of just paying attention to what is in front of him. I set up my boats to run their respected class and never have I had to worry about being at WOT. A gps on board will not fix the problem it make it worse for the sand baggers.

Randy said it best, run before a race with an official at WOT, then at the end of the race if you are the winner at WOT again with an official, it will take some time and effort but is is the only way this will work. If we all set up are boats to run a class where we belong non of this talk would take place. Bring what you brung is all good when you run in your proper class without holding back.

Randy-,-Pollo Tropical,
I think we're making progess it sounds like we all don't see the significance of average speed ,but need to come to agreement on how to control top end speed.I agree with pre-race prop-rpm calc's. In a perfect world it could end there, but we need controls.Differance in pre-race conditions to post-race conditions ,amount of fuel ,do you fill back up? Human error ,favoritism do you,can you keep the race course open longer,etc. may result in 1-3 mph differances. It brings me back to in boat GPS, If theirs a better way lets do it,but pre-race post-race inspection rides could present a whole new set of problems .

Walt

MD,
Why don't you get much response to your "do you want to race heads up" questions? I believe that is because most are not willing to give up an edge. Some/most don't trust the system to police the boats that won't/don't comply to the rules.
OPA has started to implement a system that is based around props and rev limiters. Great start! This is very similar to my recommendations in 2003. What can OPA do better?
1. Commit to test select boats pre-race.
2. Commit to test all winners post race.
3. Establish written rules and corrective actions for those that break out.
Do the breakout's still win this race? I say yes so they won't be tempted to back off. The corrective action can be implemented for the next race.
Post race testing would not be necessary if the water was such that the fleet was under the target speeds.
P-Class racing could grow and thrive if it had consistency, credibility and integrity.
OPA, keep going you are almost there.
Ben Perfected

I can agree with changing to top speeds verified by GPS and pre-/post-race runs.

I'd recommend top speeds be 10 mph higher than the current average speeds. That should accommodate for the 7 mph (SBI/APBA) difference in the prop calc/average speed, plus 3 mph for misc. factors (i.e. lighter fuel load, flat water, etc.). Also, since I expect most boat owners have currently set-up their boats to run at the top of their class, we won't have to go out and purchase new props, change rev limiters, iginition systems, etc.

However, changing to a top speed alone will not stop the sandbagging. Therefore an inspector should also run the boat to verify the top speed.

Sean