Ok maybe a different way........
 

Ok I have to get this off my mind. It was great hanging in Chattanooga all weekend and seeing old friends and racers. OPA did a great job as well as Pop. It was one of the best race sites I have ever attended. The current GPS, big motor , prop down , dry sump , huge power and stare at the GPS works for some but I still feel there is a better way to race. Yes I failed miserably at the ORL deal this Spring. Nobody would bite. It's obvious sealed motors aren't the way to go. Mercury is out of racing as far as the smaller open cockpit boats 24-30 ft. The engine builders are back in and they should be. So why doesn't some organization atleast run minimum weights, put engine rules/ specs back in, go back to pre/post race inspections, run WOTand put some art back into the smaller classes. I can't believe I even care but I just can't let it go.

A-Class was incredible ten years ago. How do you like this list of registered A-Class boats in 1996? Info by Phantom1.

Ale House Racing
Archer Marine Scarab
Ballistic
Breathless
Christie's Photographic
Cool Running
Damn Donzi the New Generation
Duces-R-Wild
Excalibur
Final Notice
Final Persuasion
Flash Point
Fortune and Glory
Frank's Marine
Hart Throb
La Baby Argentina
Mediamaster
Mr. Zip
No Limits
Not Guilty II
Off Limits
Optical Illusion
Pantera Racing
Performance Marine
Phantaseas
Pitman Photo Express
Powerplay Racing
Pure Energy
Quarter King
Rain-X Express
Scatterbrain
Shogun
SMG Express
Standing Room Only
Stressed Out
Subluxator
Tabu
Team Chicago
Team Exciter
Team Hardcore
Team Hogs Breath
Team Intercoastal
Team Progression
Team Saber
Team Thoroughbred
Tina-Team Mean Green
VIS Auto Finance
What's Instore
Wizard of Oz

I have talked to some who are considering a single engine class with a power/weight ratio formula. This way no matter what motor you have you can run.

There are a lot of details that need to be worked out. Motors would have to be dyno'ed and then the weight of the boat would be calculated based on the dyno HP.

I agree, all out single engine class racing is very exciting, the question is what is the formula to make it work.

It has to be cheap and easy. Easy for the teams and inspectors. How about, one gear ratio and measure the sweet spot speed. For example, in class 2 it would be 60-90mph. Then add weight to the quicker boats. The boats get run with 2 prop sizes before the first race and the engines are sealed. Then add weight to the quicker boats. The min weight for that specific boat gets marked on the transom and everyone monitors each other at the crane.

All good points taken but no speed restrictions. Let the best prepared team win. Surely somebody can make this happen. Keep the motors simple enough so we can afford them and they will last. Rough water will be the equalizer in the end!

19 foot Bayliners with small block Chevy's/Alphas

:D

This would work in a long distance offshore race. On a 5 mile course with turns, weight never seems to work.

I think what you are forgetting, is the water. Flat water is the GPS nightmare. In the rough, it is not even a factor. If those boats in Chattanooga were all wide open on that long flat coarse, half of them would have exploded. Our attrition rate is minimal due to chipping back the engines. This is the reason for the number of boats at the events. Example Papa Dukes ran two complete seasons on One motor, and it's still running. We are after good competitive racing while keeping the costs minimal. Answer is more rough water, but then you destroy the hulls.
The problem in Offshore has always been the constant changing of rules and equipment. There has never been any consistancy. Well guess what....as far as OPA goes....Consistancy rules. NO CHANGES ON MY WATCH............Smitty

I think there are a lot of boats in OPA that are in there limites..I think its up to the officals to make the call if a boat is sandbagging or propped so far down with big HP that there acceleration is so quick that no boat stands a chance, It shoud be up to the officals to make the call to move that boat up in class or add weight....

We have had great racing in Class 3 this year and both us and Wanted can not hit the 95 mph speed...

I think you are right on the acceleration numbers.....to water test a boat is good for the sport to keep the boats in line....but checking the acceleration speed is just as important...keeping those numbers some what close to all other boats in that class would make it much better racing....

With a possible brake down of:

Class 6 - 50 to 70 mph acc. time
Class 5 - 55 to 75 mph acc. time
Class 4 - 65 to 85 mph acc. time
Class 3 - 75 to 95 mph acc. time
Class 2 - 75 to 100 mph acc. time
Class 1 - 80 to 110 mph acc. time

If there were a big differance in acceleration times from one boat whos is always winning to the rest of the fleet....that would be something to look at....
Just my opinion.....

Pull the 2003 rule book and go from there. A centrally located race with one of the existing groups, couple of months into the season could be interesting. You might be surprised who shows up if the cost can be kept low and someone finds some prize money. Even a good grudge match might draw out the boats. Corpus Christi would be great. Why isn't one of the groups racing Corpus? Thats some bad ass water, a good venue, and nice people.

My question is, why fix something that isn't broken?
In rough water, the GPS works pretty much to see if you have completed your laps and stayed on the course. In flat water it requires concentration to keep your speed under control. So whats the problem? OPA has had a perfect year, safe, well attended and growing larger every minute, while still remaining a group that helps one and other and still laughs and has a good time. If these A class and Spec classes and other systems were the answer why are they gone? I'm not knocking anyones opinions, I just think time would be better spent helping Smitty with whats working right now.

Louie the Rigger
"Strictly Business 206"
Class 2 National Champions
Chattanooga Mile Speed Record Holders
and Course Record Holders

PS gotta go get a new helmet, this one shrunk!

Where did all the old boats and racers go? Why did they all quit racing?

Also why is there a boat, crew, and racer registration fee in most orgs. than on top of that an entry fee. Why not just an entry fee. Makes it very expensive for someone to just try racing the first time.

Constant changing of rules and classes

Louietherigger and Smitty have the right idea. Keep up the good work. And focus on race sites. Try to keep offshore offshore. Point and OC MD are great sites.
Jim

It's not as much as speed as cost involved too. I'm not trying to start trouble or make anybody mad here either. There has to be a better way. If you don't have the most expensive engine w/ the unbelieveable torque , you'll get left at the start and in the turns. One reason I'm bringing this up is I'm building a new boat to race next year and I'm not putting a dry sump , 700+ hp engine in it to run a GPS class that is goverened by speed.. I don't blame the racers today either , they're doing what they can to have a playing field and compete.

I looked in many engine compartments this weekend. Holy cow. I could not believe the huge power! It's about torque in the system now. The racers that race know what I'm talking about(they were the ones telling me this too plus many more people) I'm honestly not trying to rain on anyone's parade here. I just can't get over the fact that we used to have over 20 boats in the class and anybody could win on a given day. Smitty you have done a great job and I'm sure you'll continue forward , I'm just voicing my opinion and hopefully one day I can be competitive in a class again w/ 500 hp and run 80 mph WOT!

The boats left because mother Mercury rammed the 525 down the racers throats. If the 500 efi was still in production and we had the same management , we'd still have the big boat counts in F1 and F2!

All those "A" boats didnt have Mercury power in them!

Everybody wants thier hand in the cookie jar, and of course what suits them best. Look at the Age of the average racers, there certainly isnt a big influx of younger racers coming in.

AS for spec racing the HONDA series appears to be one of the best, per price and affordablity. Not sure if this your type of venture, but who every brings that to the U.S., and has Honda backing will be successful.

Okay...let me start by saying this is not a slam against OPA. However, my concern with running against the OPA boats is the huge power/torque in the boats. Only as an example, us SBI P5 guys were very competitive last year since we were all running similar horsepower/torque to weight ratios...not because of any rule, but it's just the way it worked out. It has become obvious in OPA if you want to win, you've got to have the torque and squeeze as much as you can into the boat. As Brian mentions, this gets expensive.

I've been keeping a closer eye on Powerboat P1 since I've been in Europe. They may have the right formula, but still not perfect in flat water. In short, P1 is somewhat of a combination of our "P-classes" and spec racing. They've got a top speed, average speed, horsepower to weight ratios, and length requirements. Although, the deck-to-deck racing still seems to occur with the smaller class boats.

We'd need to find a balance between additional costs associated with us having to dyno our engines versus the extra costs some folks spend to get the huge torque. However, we're talking about another change here, and as Smitty notes, causes folks to quit racing.

Nonetheless, let me throw this out there: who's interested in developing classes that mirror Powerboat P1? I don't necessarily agree we need more classes, but might we be able to combine classes under P1 rules or with slight modifications of P1 rules to accommodate more of our classes? For example, boats have to be a min of 33 feet in P1 Super Sport and that would exclude many of our P6, Class 5/6 boats. So we may want to modify the min/max length requirements.

Let's face it, unless everyone has the exact same boat, the rules have to be more extensive to equalize those boats, and then you need the ability to enforce the rules.

Sean

Team Gallagher Offshore Racing
SBI/APBA P5-99
www.tgor.net

Sean,
Thanks for serving OUR country! The P1 seems to be a very popular source as to racing style. Keep in mind all the big U.S maufacturer's are getting boats into the mix, Why? Its not that they are cheap to build, its the expousure. Time will tell If the boats going there will force out the less competitive boats, and then have the same problem as here.

Not to shed glume on P1 in Europe...but OPA's Class 4, 5 and 6 have better boat counts then they do.....
Plus your starting to see if your not in a newer Fountain or Outerlimites, your old boat is going to be running in the back of the pack....

The biggest Classes this year in the World have been in OPA.
Some of the closes racing this year has been in OPA...

Even in spec racing....if you don't keep up with the latest and best equipment...you will be left behind....

What Org today has boats that are 1 to 2 years old competing against 10,15 or even 20 year old boats and still running deck to deck....

A good example of that is the Bounty Hunter boat.....if its flat you will see the longest faces on them guys.....if its rough...you swear them guys were 10 years old at X-mas time....

Leave it to the people running the Org. to keep racing fair....
We all have the opertunity to talk to Smitty on any issue along with J.C and Ron P.

Pete,

First of all, my pleasure.

Second, you have an excellent point. The P1 rules are in their infancy and as a few of the folks at the Portugal race told me...motorsports is huge in Europe...so they have a different market in which to expose the sport. So possibly in time their boats may become less competitive among each other and they'll be forced to change their rules as well. Maybe it's the nature of our sport...rules need to change to accommodate the changes in technology. I do agree, time will tell.

Sean

Gino,

From what I've heard, I would think the lower boat count in P1 is due to the cost. It is significantly more expensive to run a circuit that encompasses the travel of P1. We could probably best equate it to us running a circuit all across the U.S., not just the regional areas our organizations focus on...and I don't see a lot of our U.S. teams going coast-to-coast. But if that's all there was, do you think our boat counts would be as high? Also, although I was not able to confirm what it costs to be associated with P1, I do understand it's expensive..but the few folks I talked to agreed it was well worth it. Look at the exposure P1 has...world-wide...what manufacturer wouldn't want that exposure? I also know P1 is probably not for us "grass roots" racers either.

Also...the year of the boat is irrelevant if the horsepower to weight ratio is the same. Although new technologies in hull design can make a difference.

Now having been to the P1 World Championship and our Key West, they don't compare. As soon as we entered Portugal we knew about the race (equate that to entering the State of Florida). Their race village had sponsor displays and a kids zone. Oh yea...I don't think the helicopters circling their race course were safety choppers, but instead camera choppers broadcasting the race live to the big screens at the race village, the pits and on the equivalent of their boardwalk with the play-by-play from announcers. Maybe P1 gave me a vision of what offshore racing in the States could be...or maybe a reminder of what it was.

Sean

Team Gallagher Offshore Racing
SBI/APBA P5-99
www.tgor.net

The Claiming rule really help slow down the cost in Amateur Motocross. You had Factory backed 15yrs racing full on “works bikes”... That all changed overnight when the AMA implemented the claim rule were any other racer could “claim” another bike for twice the retail value or something along that line. I’m not sure if it would work in boat racing but it may. Have 6 Different claim prices for each class…

So who do I make out the check to for 1 of Crockets Motors…

You'll make the check out to Tyler Crockett and to Joker Performance Boats for the new hull - haha. All good feedback here guy's and once again not trying to start trouble or make anybody mad. How can we grow a professional motorsport when it's bracket racing? In other forms of motorsports bracket racing is amateur.

Yes OPA had the best boats counts but it's not what I would call anything like 1999-2003. I can remember 100+ boats at races and the drivers meeting took forever just to do roll call.

Why can't we have a class with:

1. Mininum weight (which i believe is an art form setting up the boat)
2. 500 hp limit and torque limit.
3. A solid claiming prop and engine rule.

I'm only suggesting this to 24 to 30 ft open cockpit boats. The big dawg , big dollar guy's can keep their rules. The GPS guy's can also keep their place. Surely somebody can make this happen. Obviously I couldn't but I'm ready to jump on somebody elses plan.

We have Tyler , Innovation and Pfaff that would step up I'm sure.

Hey Joker,
Wazzup, Wahoo and Strictly Business are class 2 and all have 525's. For us to step up our game we have to become better racers and dail our boat in to the max, a wrong prop choice or set up can lose a race. We have run with Cats, V-hulls with big power and in the end class 2 has leveled itself off with a nudge or 2 from Smitty, some teams went up a class, some went down and all are very competitive where they wound up. There is always going to be controversy over who is building the better mouse trap, GPS no GPS, rough water, calm water to me it's all good, rough water run slow and get beat up, calm water run fast don't spin out or break out, its a challenge anyway it goes. Your right with the playing field, its the most important part at this point, Louie

The boats you mention are canopied and don't even relate to what I'm talking about. 24 to 30 ft open cockpit , grass roots racers is where I fit in.

Okay.....let me step into the middle of this.

It is only an idea that the old guys at HORBA have been kicking around and it still has a lot more development needed, but we kind of feel, that you can have your cake and eat it too.

After attending a few races, we noticed that on Saturday, everyone uses that time to dial in the boats and get ready for the Sunday afternoon races.

We are toying with the idea that we could have 4 classes.......just wait and hear me out.

Each class would have a spec boat in a specific size.

The boats ( hulls and decks ) would be sold by HORBA at a specific weight. The teams could then take them and rig them to the rules, using whatever they may have for equipment, new or used.

Class S would be 24 foot single engine, sterndrive or outboard.
Class T would be 30 foot twin engine, sterndrives or outboards.
Both Classes S & T could only use a small block engine with one spec carb and a spec exhaust system.

Any drive, except #6's.

Class Open would be 35 feet with twin big block sterndrives, with one spec carb and spec exhaust.

Any drive execept # 6's

The races for these classes would be held on a regular race weekend on Saturday morning, starting at 10 AM.
Classes S & T race for 120 miles.....200 Kilo
Class Open race for 180 miles.....300 Kilo

The course would be along the beach for 30 miles, out into open ocean for 15 miles and back the other way for 30 miles and then in for 15 miles to the beach again.

This gives a 90 mile distance. For the Open class, they would do two laps.

For the classes S & T, after the first 90 miles, the remaining 30 miles could be made up by a 15 mile leg out to a checkpoint boat in the ocean and back to the start / finish line.

Race time could be between 3 and 5 hours depending on conditions, plenty of daylight remains in the day. If you run into trouble you are only 15 miles offshore at most.

The 4th class....Historic, would be run on Sunday morning at 10 AM for a distance of 60 miles ...100 Kilos.

Any Historic race boat could compete. Only participation awards are given for Historic race boats, as they would be of such various engine HP and boat lengths, they could never be made equal.

The regular races could go on their normal schedule. Sunday afternoon. This open ocean stuff would just add to the fans enjoyment for the weekend. We are not trying to take anything away from today's racers, we are just trying to offer more....there may be some teams who would consider racing in both.

These open ocean races would be held under the regular race body sanction of whoever was running the races that weekend, all fees etc would go to them.

Obviously, these races could only be run at ocean venues or Great Lakes venues, that would allow a course out on the open lake.

This is the kind of open racing the sport was founded on. It is a great time, wide open running, if you can, over open ocean courses where you can't see land for 360 degrees.

This type of racing always allowed more people to participate. It is still a rough idea from HORBA, but we are continuing to work on it.

The photos below represent the designs and look of the three classes. All hulls would be non step designs.

Open Class would look just like this, twin engine big block racer.
Twin Class would be a 27 Magnum stretched to 30 feet with a deck design that would look just like this old 40 foot Cigarette design.
Single Class would be this hull with a Top Gun like deck.

Outboards would be bracket mounted.

And by the way, we have already thought about the guys that want to have bigger step boats and bigger engines and drives.....no problem, you can race on Sunday afternoon !!!

HORBA

www.historicraceboats.com

111
1 weight
1 engine
1 drive

I truly belive this combination is the answer to most of your questions. It dosn't matter who's engineit is, just that its the same engine or spec's for every engine. 496HO as it comes from mercury or an engine from someone like these guy's
http://www.1800runsnew.com/NLM/perf-....html#Base_540 or equivelent. or build your own engine
to specs like the old "A" Class , hell, there's enough HP500 out their.

Eddie

I'm right there w/ ya Eddie!

Intresting, but were right back to buying a new boat.. I already have 2 ..LOL

Rick make it out to me I have 2 ready to go I listed them but somebody deleted the thread.

Yes...but these boats will retain their value, as they can be resold and reused and still be competitive with the new owners.

You can even use all the stuff from your 2 old boats to build your new race boat. Drives, engines, tabs, tanks, steering, etc. etc.

Every boat will have a plaque embedded into the transom, with a HORBA series number assigned to it.

The boats are small enough to be moved with a regular pickup truck, and can all be launched by trailers on a ramp, no need for cranes or slings.

All motors to be pump gas only. We are trying for simple and easy here.

Top Banana,

Are these molds in existence at this time, what would the cost be for a blank hull?

Top Banana:

I'm not on here trying to sell boats , obviously you are. You build one of your boats and you can come race against us , how's that for a challenge? I'm an old Factory 1 racer and I'm once again trying to get some interests back in the class. I'm not planning a whole new racing series , etc. There is OPA and APBA / SBI that would welcome any boats that meet their criteria.

To grow people need to be able to race what they already have, Buying having to buy another Hull or boat would just add cost.

It’s a very dammed if you do dammed if you don’t

IMO, a new series is just what we do not need. We need to build off the existing OPA model and attract better venues, Series Sponsors and TV that pays us to film it. Smitty has done a great job and has always made room for other classes if they had the boats. Get 10 F1 boats that want to race under those rules and I'm sure you will have a class.

100% AGREE!

You just need to find a way to make the boats that are currently being raced equal. Maybe added or removing weight, making everyone run the same gear ratio, a claiming rule on motors so people don’t overpower the class or even a combination of all. But one thing we don’t need is another organization to build another class.

Dean, I agree with you 100%, The OPA has pulled a lot of boats out of the backyards and also inspired a lot of people to build new ones. I've never seen Smitty turn anyone away from racing, and because of that we have some dynomite teams. Joker in my last post, I did know you were talking about non canopied boats of a different size, I was just giving an example of how things can level off. A lot of this post race banter is fueled by racers who broke out or feels another team that came in ahead of him did, seems no one complains when there holding the checkered flag, atleast I don't. :p WooHoo!! Louie

I didn't break out for a change, but I do have an interest in some kind of spec racing, Louie, you basically have spec class all running with 525's, I greatly appreciate what going on in "Class Racing" but I think it needs to lead to something in the long run. I know the economy has a lot to do with boat count but a lot of us remember a poor race was less than 60/70 boats. Maybe as OPA boat count grows you could develop 2 to 3 premiere class, a single, twin, and a Cat, or the the concept that Top Banana was talking about with real Ocean Racing in conjunction with Class Racing, Remember F1 and F2 alone had more boats than any Race we have had all year.

Eddie