A question for all
11-01-2007, 07:57 AM
#22
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Since you bring this up I've got a question for you about this that no one has been able to give me an actual answer for. If based on prop calculations your boat should be in a faster class, but you have it set up or limited mechanically or electronically where it would not run faster than the high end of the slower bracket where would you be placed?
I'm not talking about holding back or watching the GPS, but if you set something up in the boat so that with anyone in the boat it wouldn't break out of the slower class.
I'm not talking about holding back or watching the GPS, but if you set something up in the boat so that with anyone in the boat it wouldn't break out of the slower class.
11-01-2007, 08:37 AM
#23
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Doug....I don't know exactly what differance and how much more performance say 89 octane in Mich gives you other then 89 octane in Fl is or vice versa in a 525...
But if there is a differance and it can be shown that one team would have a advatage over another becasue of this...
Then the fuel would have to be used from the race fuel truck...its that simple...just because you get a sponsor that wants to give you fuel for you boat and it gives you advantage....yes its cheating...use the sponsorship to fill up your support trucks.....
It just that simple....
and on the ECM's it is a start but again....there will always be someone who will try to cheat...and there are enough people out there that can get it done....so thats why you make it if your caught....your done for 2 years or even for good...the boat and the racers can never race in that Org.
On the chipping down on engines to make it fit into a speed...yes that is allowed...but at the same time if the Org deems it that a boat should be move up..then they will do that...
Remember...at any time a inspector can have a team pull there engine after a race and have it sent to Merc for example to have it torn down....if someone is willing to take that chance and the rule was your gone from racing if your cheating....a lot of whats going on will go away....
But if there is a differance and it can be shown that one team would have a advatage over another becasue of this...
Then the fuel would have to be used from the race fuel truck...its that simple...just because you get a sponsor that wants to give you fuel for you boat and it gives you advantage....yes its cheating...use the sponsorship to fill up your support trucks.....
It just that simple....
and on the ECM's it is a start but again....there will always be someone who will try to cheat...and there are enough people out there that can get it done....so thats why you make it if your caught....your done for 2 years or even for good...the boat and the racers can never race in that Org.
On the chipping down on engines to make it fit into a speed...yes that is allowed...but at the same time if the Org deems it that a boat should be move up..then they will do that...
Remember...at any time a inspector can have a team pull there engine after a race and have it sent to Merc for example to have it torn down....if someone is willing to take that chance and the rule was your gone from racing if your cheating....a lot of whats going on will go away....
Last edited by MANITIE; 11-01-2007 at 08:44 AM.
11-01-2007, 08:43 AM
#24
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That is up to the inspector...if a boat is not capible of running the speed at WOT but is faster then the next class down....and they chip it down...then that has been done this year...
A good example of that has been 3 boats in our class have done that this year...Wanted and us are the only boats in Class 3 with 525's...and we have the least HP....and while some boats are capible of exceeding the 95 mph speed..they are chiped down to run 95....and we have had some of the closest racing all year....with all of us being in the lead at one time or another....
In class 1 you have a vee and a cat that went at it all year...one winning one race and the other winning the next.....
Things will never be perfect in either spec or braket racing.....but it can always be tweeked to make it better....and banning cheaters for a long time or for good...would be a great start to getting rid of some bad apple's or a least changing there ways...
A good example of that has been 3 boats in our class have done that this year...Wanted and us are the only boats in Class 3 with 525's...and we have the least HP....and while some boats are capible of exceeding the 95 mph speed..they are chiped down to run 95....and we have had some of the closest racing all year....with all of us being in the lead at one time or another....
In class 1 you have a vee and a cat that went at it all year...one winning one race and the other winning the next.....
Things will never be perfect in either spec or braket racing.....but it can always be tweeked to make it better....and banning cheaters for a long time or for good...would be a great start to getting rid of some bad apple's or a least changing there ways...
Last edited by MANITIE; 11-01-2007 at 08:48 AM.
11-01-2007, 06:05 PM
#25
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If a boat is capable of running in P2 at 105 mph....there would be no reason for it to be even considered to run in P-4 at 85 mph....and I have seen boats that are close to hitting the 105 mark in P2...but moved to P3 because they just were not able to compete in P2...and tuned down to run 95....
As far as the fuel is concerend....if there is really a differance....that would be a simple fix...you can test with whatever fuel you want...but it would be pumped out and then the race fuel can be pumped and then sealed by the inspecters...and that would put a end to the fuel problem...if there is a unfair advantage....but today, how many spec class's are left....other then SVL its all the big boys...and I have never heard a SVL light team complainning about someone cheating with fuel....
In the 525's Merc dynos the engines and then seals them....some are always going to put out a little more HP then others......
No one here is saying that everything would be perfect....
but if your caught...you should be gone....that in itself would deture a lot of cheating....but it shows you....someone could go and pay a guy like you say 20k to 50k to find ways to get around inspections and give there team a advantage....and the best cure for that is ....go ahead and try it...and if your caught...by, by......
As far as the fuel is concerend....if there is really a differance....that would be a simple fix...you can test with whatever fuel you want...but it would be pumped out and then the race fuel can be pumped and then sealed by the inspecters...and that would put a end to the fuel problem...if there is a unfair advantage....but today, how many spec class's are left....other then SVL its all the big boys...and I have never heard a SVL light team complainning about someone cheating with fuel....
In the 525's Merc dynos the engines and then seals them....some are always going to put out a little more HP then others......
No one here is saying that everything would be perfect....
but if your caught...you should be gone....that in itself would deture a lot of cheating....but it shows you....someone could go and pay a guy like you say 20k to 50k to find ways to get around inspections and give there team a advantage....and the best cure for that is ....go ahead and try it...and if your caught...by, by......
Last edited by MANITIE; 11-01-2007 at 06:08 PM.
11-01-2007, 07:43 PM
#26
Since you bring this up I've got a question for you about this that no one has been able to give me an actual answer for. If based on prop calculations your boat should be in a faster class, but you have it set up or limited mechanically or electronically where it would not run faster than the high end of the slower bracket where would you be placed?
I'm not talking about holding back or watching the GPS, but if you set something up in the boat so that with anyone in the boat it wouldn't break out of the slower class.
I'm not talking about holding back or watching the GPS, but if you set something up in the boat so that with anyone in the boat it wouldn't break out of the slower class.
11-04-2007, 11:58 AM
#29
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to make this long post short.. sandbagging..racing is competition, whether you win or loose when racing you face a challange head on with the best you have. it builds confidence, self esteem, and pride in a battle well fought.. sandbagging is not competition, you loose self respect and the respect of your peers.
Im seeing a key thing not mentioned here..theres more than hp/chipping to racing. what about talent skill and resources??? your racing in a tiered system from slow boats to fast boats with skills talents and resources corresponding. unfortunatly we really cant do what a lot of other types of racing do..i.e: skill levels, start as a beginner, winn 3 trophies you become an novice, then an amat. etc. thus the racing gets more challanging the better you get. all we have is basically boat speed classes. now everyone is saying we need to get more new people in to the sport, speed classes are good..you dont want someone with a ton of money and no skill trying to race a turbine cat against gieco..somebody is going to die. so he starts racing a slower safer boat. doing this with the expectation that maybe next season he will be a better racer, with better resources and can move up to the next class. so next year he gets bigger motors moves up and gets smoked hardcore..should he be able to chip the new motors down and go back to the slower class to become a better driver/throttleman so he can be competitive in the next class (not to mention safer) ABSOLUTELY! now about sandbagging..if your skills resources and equipment have evolved tothe point where you can win 1st or second in your class consistantly, year after year, your not racing..your going on an orginized high speed boatride in a circle. if your racing in a class where you know (barring something breaking) your going to win thats sandbagging. if the ne patriots were to play a game against your local high school football team, thats not competition, its exhibition..we know whos going to win. if you take the same class in college 27 times, of course your going to get an A..so basically to describe sand bagging..if its time for you to move up the ladder to meet a new challange and you dont, but instead choose to be a highschool senior bullying 6th graders for there lunch money, thats sandbagging. as I mentioned in an earlier reply, the bike I built to the extent of the class rules killed the class, so I moved up..to open/expert..meaning I didnt care how fast your bike was, or how good you were...I wanted the challange..bring it!
Im seeing a key thing not mentioned here..theres more than hp/chipping to racing. what about talent skill and resources??? your racing in a tiered system from slow boats to fast boats with skills talents and resources corresponding. unfortunatly we really cant do what a lot of other types of racing do..i.e: skill levels, start as a beginner, winn 3 trophies you become an novice, then an amat. etc. thus the racing gets more challanging the better you get. all we have is basically boat speed classes. now everyone is saying we need to get more new people in to the sport, speed classes are good..you dont want someone with a ton of money and no skill trying to race a turbine cat against gieco..somebody is going to die. so he starts racing a slower safer boat. doing this with the expectation that maybe next season he will be a better racer, with better resources and can move up to the next class. so next year he gets bigger motors moves up and gets smoked hardcore..should he be able to chip the new motors down and go back to the slower class to become a better driver/throttleman so he can be competitive in the next class (not to mention safer) ABSOLUTELY! now about sandbagging..if your skills resources and equipment have evolved tothe point where you can win 1st or second in your class consistantly, year after year, your not racing..your going on an orginized high speed boatride in a circle. if your racing in a class where you know (barring something breaking) your going to win thats sandbagging. if the ne patriots were to play a game against your local high school football team, thats not competition, its exhibition..we know whos going to win. if you take the same class in college 27 times, of course your going to get an A..so basically to describe sand bagging..if its time for you to move up the ladder to meet a new challange and you dont, but instead choose to be a highschool senior bullying 6th graders for there lunch money, thats sandbagging. as I mentioned in an earlier reply, the bike I built to the extent of the class rules killed the class, so I moved up..to open/expert..meaning I didnt care how fast your bike was, or how good you were...I wanted the challange..bring it!
Last edited by phragle; 11-04-2007 at 12:58 PM.
