Mercury/Vortec and APBA
 

Anyone completely understand what is going on with APBA, GM and Mercury? Is Mercury still a sponsor? Will the parity change since there are now 2 engines allowed? And 1 more question, do you feel this is going to open doors for other engine builders in the future. Just curious, and I would think it is very important for APBA to get all the information out ASAP as so a Team wanting to race in future will know what they need, to be competitive, less costly and around in the future. Any info?

Micklos has been working very hard on keeping this to as close racing as possable.They understand what this can do to Factory racing and are doing there best to keep it equal.It has to happen sooner or later to keep up with tecnolagy and new products.They did a good job going from the 500 carb to the 500EFI so I am confedent they will do the same.My gut feeling is the older 500 models will be faster untill the new Vortec and 525 EFI motors are set up and that could take most of the year!
Randy

THATS WHAT IM COUNTING ON .

KEVIN
F1-46

Would just hate to see these classes die. I raced 5 years in B class and it continued to die each year. Raced a 1 1/2 in F2 and it was by far the best racing I had ever seen. Last year the field had diminished and I can only see this doing it some more. My .02

Bruce there is always that chance.Let go another direction,who is not coming back to F1 next year?And if so does it have ANYTHING to do with the new rules or gust changing class or out for other reasons.
The only boat I know of is Chicks Beach Fountain that has nothing to do with rules.Any others?1 new team screaming eagles in a new Warlock.Any others?
Randy

Randy,
The rule change is the worst thing that APBA can do now.They always wanted to keep the factory class as even as possible and now they have four different HP engines.The only winner in this is APBA because of the pay offs from GMC. The only losers are the racers as always.You tell me what sence all of this make or one good reason for it.If you have to run extra wieght to slow you down then why put an engine in the class that has motor HP.When your done your right back where you started and spent thousands of dollars for what.They ***** and mad major rule changes to few years ago to slow down some boats. But now its OK be it what they want.Doesnt anyone else see whats happening here.
Another interesting thing is that Inovation is build the engine and also the CRE.That the fox watching the chickens.I know if I was running a Merc I dont be to happy about that.Give that some thought!Factory class was created around 500's and should stay that way to make it a true factory class.If they want to intrduce that 525 and hp3 they need to have a different class.
I dont know call me crazy but something stinks here........

Frank

It is a natural occurence for technology to move forward, to get better. The fact that GM jumped into the game proves that they were smart enough to see the writing on the wall. It is a proving ground for their product. That should make Mercury happy as they still buy motors from them.
The 502 base motor is old (proven) technology that is being phased out due to the newer 8.1 liter base motor. You can't expect that the 502 will be around forever. Unforunately, you as the racers are caught up in the transition. You are a small group of people in the grand scheme of things. You can't expect things to remain the same or the sport will not advance. If you want things not to change, go Hydroplane racing. Their still running Pinto engines for God's sake.
As for Mercury being a sponsor, they will always be a major sponsor. Their presence in the performance marine community is strong, hell the strongest. The more major sponsors APBA can sign on will only make the sport progress sooner, hence GM Vortec's entrance.
Factory racing is to popular to go away. It is some of the best racing out there with more than 4 teams competing at an event. Unlike other classes (don't get me started). Don't forget that we are in a down turned economy and that it could have a bearing on what you may see for racer turn out.There has always been a turn over with Offshore Racing teams. It is an expensive sport with few rewards (monetary). People give it a shot, have their fun, blow their wad, and move on. A sport of Kings you might say.
BJ Maher is a perfect example. It's not that he doesn't like racing or that he's not competitive at it, but that maybe it's becoming cost prohibitive for him to continue. I hope he doesn't mind me using him as an example. Man, I find it hard for me just to keep my pleasure boating fix justified.

Technology does move on but why change a class that is so dialed in.Whats next 575's with 600lbs added.Still doesnt make any sence the 500efi are still in production.The class was built for a certain size boat and a certain speed.I argee in is a great proving ground for GMC but at the exspence of the racers and possible the exspence of killing a class.If they change thier minds extra year what do we do then.The class was never designed for 90MPH F1 boats.The rules can change but not a class.If they want to run HP3 & 525's start another class,like they ran the Vortec last year.
Your missing the point its all about money and none of it is for the racers.There is still no information aviable about the new HP-3 program.I spoke to Inovation today and they still dont have a clue whats up yet.Does not sound like they have thier act together to me yet.No one even know how well they will hold up and if parts are aviable for them yet,its not like your dealing with a manufactor like Merc.Lot of unknows yet and again the racers will pay the price and APBA ends up with the money.Its amazing none of the other classes have old technology just Factory class.
If its not broken dont fix it.They can go and experement somewhere else.

Frank,
The Factory Class was started in 1997. It has run successfully for 6 years. The phasing in of another "proven performer" is exactly what this sport needs. You can still run an HP500. What is the problem? Do you honestly think that the HP500 is it for Factory Class racing? Your beloved Mercury is already selling 8.1 Liter engines to the performance boating community. You seem to forget where the 502 base motor originally came from. Mercury buys their engines from GM. What happens when Mercury no longer supplies you with the HP500/502 base motor? It is bound to happen and will. I wouldn't be surprised if they are already working on it's replacement using the 8.1 liter base motor. It's only a matter of time my friend.
Your suggestion of starting another class for the HP3 only shows your ignorance for the growth of the sport. It (the HP3) is not a detriment to the class or the sport, only the next step.
Your statement of "No one knows if they will hold up". Talk to any SVL racer, talk to Rick Turmel, Nigel Hook, anyone who campaigned that engine. No negative feedback.
When there are no more HP500's to be had, and everyone else is running the newest thing, you can always race "P Class" with your cherished HP500.

I guess all we can do is see how it plays out.No one can still give me the reason for changing the rules in a class.I have nothing againts GMC you are missing the point.If they(GMC) had a engine thats HP fit in the class that would be great,the more the merry.But what sence does it make to change the rule to allow a engine with 25 hp. more. I dont care if its the GMC or the new Merc 525.We can talk about this at the end of the year and see how it plays out and what it does to the class. The numbers in Factory 1and 2 are getting smaller and smaller every year and part of that is the constant change of the rules.
I hope you are right and we get more entrys this year and some great racing that the factory classes have shown in the past.

Frank, I love the point/counterpoint of this discussion. I agree with you as why teams do leave the sport. This year, by far, has the most costly of rule changes since the inception of the Factory Classes. I would keep running what you have and let this whole thing go where it's headed. I would only go for the "new stuff" if I were building a new boat.
Let the Pioneers take the arrows!

You both have good points pros and cons.How far are we getting off course with Factory racing is hard to say but as compared to 5 years ago it has changed alot.F1 has gone from mid 70mph to mid 80 mph boats.Everyone said it was inpossable to go more than 80 mph but somehow we do and its all leagal.The word stock has changed but for the better.They are now safer than they ever were but faster.I hate the idea of more classes but I liked the idea of one motor.They tried the 502 (415) hp and not enough teams ran.Maybe another attempt in the future with the 496 merc motor for all in a simillar Factory format.Pitch a couple of small classes and start it in 2004 but let people get fired up now.The 496 would be less expensive and put speeds back to where we started.
Randy

Just a reminder that when Factory came out the 500 carb had the same issue of being expensive but was over come by reliability.I dont want to see everyone spend more money but if you want equal HP and 2 differant manufactures then maybe its time to do away with the 500 carb and 500EFI. They have great resale value and most of us have bought them at a dealor price anyway.You could sell your motor ,drive and gimbal for close to $20,000 and put it down on a new setup.Now you have all new no rebuilt for aprox $15,000.Thats not that bad guys for what we spend anyway.Do we want to do this?No,But if it maintains equality then I'm for it.I think it stinks to have 4 differant motors in Factory class but they are trying to keep everyone happy that has already bought motors.You know the saying you cant please everyone all the time so dont even try.Keep it equal in Factory and show case the talant and setup.To many variables will hurt the class and change the whole concept of equal power for all.
Randy

HEY GUYS REMEMBER WHEN THE EFI CAME OUT THEY HAD A CLASS OF THEIR OWN, WHY NOT A SEPERATE CLASS FOR THE 525, WITH OUT THE WEIGHT RESTRICTION, AND LET THE 500 HP AND THE EFI'S CONTINUE TO RUN THE WAY WE HAVE BEEN. ARE ALL THE BOATS COMING OUT OF THE FACTORYS RUNNING THE 525 IN 2003 I BET THEIR NOT. IM GOING TO RUN MY 500 HP CARB. AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS IVE BEEN TOLD IF I GET BLOWN AWAY BY THE NEW 525 A NEW RULE CHANGE WOULD HAPPEN PER MIKALUS.

KEVIN
F1-46

Kevin,
I spoke to John at SBI and I believe thats is what he is going to do.The F1 class will stay the same and they will run a seperate class for the Vortec.To me that makes the most sence,I agree with Randy its crazy to run four different motors and four different hps.The factory class was built to be an affordable class and they have lost the vission that started it all.Every time they do something like this it sets the sport back again.Iroc is still running equal hp motors for years that what the class is about not keeping up with technlogy I dont buy that story.It money for APBA and thats all it is!

Frank

Without making more classes in Factory and sticking to 1 engine only sanario which motor would you pick?And my guess is yes all new Factory Race boats will use the new motors.And Kevin no one is going to blow you away in your boat.
Randy

Randy,

I think there is a good chance some boats are going to be blown away with the HP3's. Even with 350 lb of extra weight, you should see lower ET's (faster average speeds), as some hulls will carry the 350 better than others.

In the long run, I can see the Factory boats running the HP3 from either Merc or GM. The Merc 525 (502 block) is not going to be around long from other posts I have read here. Were going let other teams prove reliability of the HP3 this year and see what Mercury Racing decides to do next year.

In the meantime, I guess will just have to figure out how to out drive you fast guys.
:D

J

Frank

If SBI were to run two Factory-1 classes, one for Vortec and one for Mercury, you would have an even more pathetic # of entries than there is now. You might have 1 boat in each class. Now that's exciting!

Everyone has valid points and opinions and each solution will have drawbacks. I really dont see $15,000 is worth 1 mph, but obviously my wallet is not as thick as some. Yes, inevitably the 500 will become obsolete, but wouldnt it make better sense to use that money to move up a class. I know there is no way we can compare ourselves to the Nascar circuit, but they have a simple formula that has proven to work. You have ARCA, Busch, and Winston Cup. You have different make of vehicles, but the same horsepower in each of those. When you do good on one circuit, you move up. To quote Days Of Thunder:"All cars are the same right" " Yeah so the rulebook says" "So then its up to the driver right?" It should be in the driver/throttleman's hands and not who has the fattest wallet. As BJ said one boat in every class is so exciting, and believe me, I speak from experience, it royally sucks, but either make a rule to do away with the 500's and put them into the P class or make seperate classes. Lets put the racing back into the driver/thottleman's hands and make racing more exciting for the fans, which will make the purses bigger and then possibly more racers and so on. I know opinions are like @$$holes, everyone has one, and thats just mine...
Trent

I guess at this point all we can do is see what shakes out this year and make adjustments for next year.I'm sure APBA will make changes as the year gos on until they get a handle on it.I still dont understand why the change but they make the rules.I know it not to make us faster...and I would think that would be the only reason you would introduce a engine with more HP. I guess we just need to do what we do and that race and leave the politics to APBA....

Frank

Steve Miklos I know you read this stuff and you have the answers to many questions.Can you please help us understand some of the reasons all these motors are leagal in a class that is desighned to have just one motor?We wont shoot the messanger.
Randy

With Gmc being a major sponsor and posting a nice over all prize money, I don't see APBA letting a Merc engine win the overall prize money. If a new merc 525 starts winning they will have weight added till the HP3 can win!! If you race a merc engine you will be put under the microscope a lot to be sure your legal. The smart teams will race the engine of the major sponsor (GMC) that supports the F1. F2. SVL1, SVL2 IMO

They better get out there microscope then because we are running a Merc. and plan on kicking but who ever runs against us.As for being leagal wouldnt have any other way.There is no victory in cheating.
Randy

2fast4u,

I believe the tests have shown incredibly close parity between the HP3 and 525. Both are dynoed at CRE and sealed.

My experience with APBA is one where they do what is necessary to make sure we have close deck-to-deck racing without one team dominating. I don't believe APBA Offshore would even consider skewing the rules to give advantage to GM or Merc. The teams and manufactures are comprised of very intelligent people who would see right through a ploy like this. Both sponsors are very important to the future of our sport. It just wouldn't happen.

J

Typhoon racing is the exception. Since they dogged it all year, and busted out at the Worlds, they be torndown and stripped searched after every race.

J:)

I dont believe that if you protested APBA or made a stand you would only get suspended.We"ve seen that before and the out come.If APBA did it to Reggie with all his sponsor money and amount of boats he ran what chance do you think you or I would have.Another thing that is going to be a major problem is that Inovation is building and CRE thier own engines.That will be one for the books.

I think I understand where he is going with his statement. Will GM pay the money to a team that wins with a Mercury package or will they not be included in the continengy money since they are not running Vortec motors.

"Specific details on program eligibility will be forthcoming."

J

By the way I just talked to Innovation and still no price on the Vortec engine lease. I hope it comes soon.

Guys,
It is tough to stay in F-1 , but if you love the sport you stick it out. Any way WHO WANTS TO BUY AN ACTIVATOR.Seriously if you want the faster of F-1 boats my is a steal since we are in the process of purchasing an F-2.. If you need details call my office 732-549-1800.
Dave
Watch out for those Typhoon guys, with no activators around they may be unstoppable, Right Randy!!

Please buy my boat.
I am giving this boat away. I will sell the two time National Championship boat for $50,000. You will not find a better deal anywhere! I have to get rid of this boat! This boat has won 8 races on the National tour in the last 2 years. No one else has won more than 2. We have won over $55,000 in prize money in the last two years and the boat is still the boat to beat in Factory-1. If you want the best single engine boat ever built and want to win in Factory-1, there is no other! This boat has not one stress crack anywhere to be found. If I have to go to Daytona in April and destroy the entire field to prove this boat for our 9th checkered flag, I will. I would rather have someone else buy the boat and prove how awesome it is! $50,000 is cheap for a 2001 Factory-1 race boat that is a proven winner. Ask Candy who his biggest fear is going into a race and he will tell you. ACTIVATOR!

Regards
B.J. Maher F1-1

You dont have to ask me I'll tell you.BJ is right that the Activators are my biggest concerns when racing.In the right hands they are a great all around F1 boat.
Randy

I hope Volvo doesnt get back in the mix.APBA might want to include the DPX 600's. WE will have to run with 1,000lbs. next year.

Spoke to Inovation Fri. 1/24/03 still no info. on the Vortec program.