We Need Some Input From Long Time Racers
 

To the guys who have been around for awhile...what can we do.....We had a total of 20 F1 boats race this year in one organization or another....of them, 2 were sold and at least 6 are up for sale that did'nt race this year and one more is being built for 2004....I don't agree with the class is dead or we would'nt have had 20 F1's race this year....its just that we are racing in 4 different organizations thats keeping the boat count down....
1. Is it because the cost to run a team is to high?
2. Is it the entry fee's are to high?
3. Would it help if every team that shows up should get paid something?
4. If we went out and got a F1 sponsor to pay for our entry fee's for the year bring out more boats?
5. Is it because some teamsjust don't like some of the organizations?
6. Is it because the F1 teams don't have the big budgets like the big boys do and its harder for the F1's to travel around the country?
7. Would the manufactures help out alittle if every F1 team named their boat with the manufactures name after the race name like Nascar..ie..Team Screamin Eagle/ Warlock....are times that tough that a manufacture would not give a team alittle money for a return to have their company mentioned in newspapers,magazines and TV coverage?
8. If a team has to travel over 700 miles their entry fee is cut in half?
9. Or should all the F1 teams agree to at least race with one organization for a year to show it can bring 18+ F1 boats to each race.

Just woundering if this is all a wast of time and money and we should all just move up in class or get out of racing...
Alittle input would help...even from OSS, LLC, OPA, GLSCS, manufactures or even promoters....

Gino

Gino, great questions. I'll enjoy reading the answers.

You should try to organize the F1 boats so you all attend the same events as a group. However, some guys might like to race at other events so they stand a chance of winning a race or two. You guys were really tough to beat this year.

gino,

as you know i have raced f1 for many years and went to f2. i was over the year untill this year one of the largest supporters for factory class. 4 years ago everbody wanted to go to canopy's and i said no and had a lot of people and money behind me.

the plane truth is gino, that before the daytona race this year f2 had 15 - 18 boats and f1 was just about the same. when jack stoerrle passed away in daytona it hit to close to home for a lot of people. nobody will truly know but if he was in a canopy he may have survived. the last couple of years prior when factory racers passed away at the race sites it was on the west coast so in my opinion we here on the east coast did not feel the full effect.

when jack passed this year it also hit harder because he was a seasoned racer and a world champion. super v and super v light is basically the same as f1 and f2. next year we should have very large and competitive classes. actually that was in the plans for the future. it may of happened a little sooner then we liked but the truth is it is safer and does not cost much more. and now thats were the competition is.

anyway our lives are not worth a plastic trophy and a couple thousand dollars. even after jacks mishap, there were many accidents during the season that were lucky enough not to be major deals, but you know how fast and quickly it can happen.

i have done the research myself and believe it or not until jacks mishap the deaths in canopy's were the same as open boats. the diffrence is today we have a lot more technology in the canopy's and now are truly safer but not full proof. we have a long way to go on safety and rules for the canopy's but that's another story.
anyway if we get the couple of f2 guy's left to move to super v and the few guy's left from f1 that have not already gone to super v light to make the move we will delete two classes and make others stronger. with less classes and a bigger boat count we can do nothing then to benefit from it. the larger the class, the larger the purse prize, the more TV and media attention we get, and last but not least the more sponsors and fans we can attract.

in the year 2000 when f2 was just a hair under 30 boats i received more air time that year plus a lot of other f2 boats then any other class. f2 class that year had even more TV time then the super cats because we were the largest and most competitive class running that year. f1 also received a ton of tv time because they were the second biggest class. i believe a hair under 20 boats per race.

so anyway that's my opinion and in the long run i believe it will be the best for all of us.



Treadwell


Treadwell

I firmly believe the only reason I'm still here today is because our race boat had a canopy.

Racing is dangerous. Give yourself a chance to survive a crash and race under a lid.

after crash in Key West 1995.

hey eric,did jacks formula have the 500's,or 525's?

Jack's Formula, like mine, had just been repowered with the 525's. We had just completed a lot of testing at Lake-X, and the boat was FLYING! In retrospect, it was maybe a little TOO fast for the courses we are running these days.

After Jack's accident, my partner, Carl Saitta, and I decided that as fathers and husbands we just couldn't continue to run in F-2 as it was presently being done. Either the courses needed to change or the speeds had to go down or we had to run with canopies. To deny that we had somehow crossed over the line of what these boats can safely do is just burying your head in the sand. Jack was my friend and he died twenty feet behind me in the exact same boat as mine doing the exact same thing as me. That gets your attention in a hurry.

Eric's point is well taken. Let's move over to Super-V or Super-V Light. This will be only marginally more expensive for us as racers, but a helluva lot safer AND will reduce classes all in one shot. Factory racing with open cockpits was a great idea, but the boats are simply too fast with the new engine packages.

For what its worth, this is just my two cents!

Tom Caruso
Owner/Throttles
F2-32
Total Marine Racing/Sirius
38' Formula FASTech

Eric and Tom,
Thanks for the input....My only thought is most F1 teams or guys thinking of getting into racing can't afford the big money it takes to get into a SV or a SVL...if the boats where slowed down with a 496 and the F1 speeds were 73 to 76 mph and F2 was around 84 to 85 would that help.....I will agree at 81-82 in a F1 was hairey this year..personally I like that but I agree its unsafe....but with a 496 the cost could be $50,000 to $60,000 to buy a new F1 half of that right now is just for a hp525.....I know Fomula has been trying to put in a class with 496's and if it happens I'm even thinking of running in it.....Eric I see were your going and it makes alot of sence....but would it help Offshore racing if their was a class you can get into for under $60,000 before moving up to a $120,000 SVL or $230,000 for a SV.....what do you think?

Gino

Gino:

While I agree that Factory racing would be a lot safer at the slower speeds that the 496 package would bring and that the entry costs would be a lot less, I'm just not convinced that the 496 package would live under race conditions. I just don't think it will survive operating upwards of 5000 rpm for an hour at a time. On the other hand, maybe that's a good thing, bring back reliability into the equation: do you run the boat balls out to get in front, or do you try and conserve to make it last to the finish?

Bottom line is this: open cockpit boats on twisty courses should NOT be run at the speeds we are currently running them. We need to either: 1). slow the boats down; 2). make the courses longer and with fewer turns; or 3). mandate canopies.

The sport needs to be as safe as possible, not as inexpensive as possible.

Again, I don't have all the answers but I think its guys like you that can start dialogues like this that will result in meaningful changes to our sport.

Tom

Thanks for the info Tom......

i have to agree that safety is a huge factor for me since my little girl was born in august. the canopies make a big difference. i don't know if i want to get back in an open cockpit boat after driving a canopy boat. as more sv's and svl's are made, maybe there will be more options on the used market. svl is my 1st choice right now.

Here is a situation report on Factory 1:

There is an F-1 owners group holding discussions on Wetpits.com.

To date we have 18 active owners in the discussions.

We have voted within the group to use the HP500EFI to address speed/safety, availability, reliability and cost. The 496HO is not race proven; the 496/470 will not be available until late February.

We have voted to stay with the 4650 weight for all boat lengths that was instituted by APBA in Sarasota.

We are about to vote on the outdrive specifications.

We have attempted to communicate with APBA and have been stonewalled by Steve Miklos.

We have called, and exchanged email with, Mark Nemschoff who has advised us that 1) Mike is still running day to day operations at APBA and 2) that there will be no rule changes for the Factory 1 class for 2004. This decision ensures that the lack of parity will continue unless everyone steps up to the 525 which is expensive and too fast for this class.

We know that one of the few constants with APBA is change.

Our group is in discussions with the OSS group and will be evaluating race options for the 2004 season.

We will be working the phone lines trying to get a good turn out at whatever venues we agree to race.

We are trying to revive the Factory 1 class which is more than can be said for APBA.

Fair and balanced...you decide (that is stolen but applicable).

Allen Campbell
Screamin' Eagle
F1-83

Allen,
Let me get this stright.....when APBA said the rules are going to be the same for 2004 their were 8 F1 teams that said they would race and teams said to APBA give us an answer and will stand by it....now that they are you said the F1 teams are looking at OSS to race.....

First who are all these teams that committed to racing F1 next year with only a hp500....Even know Randy voted for the 500 he told me he cannot committe to F1 because he's working on SVL....thier are 18 actiive boats who's making all these disitions to race elsewhere....it sounds like if APBA dose not run the 500's you and a few other teams will race in OSS....how is that helping this class....the people I have been talking to are going with the APBA rules and now what another boycott if the only 500 packs. are not run....WHAT ARE WE DOING HERE......Its like eveeryone is voting on were there boat will be most competitive and cheap for them only......like I said in the wetpits you only had 7 votes for the engine thier are other teams out their who are not going to vote because they are already setting up thier boats for 2004 by APBA rules........this is good well have 1 boat in SBI 2or 3 in OSS and 3 in ABPA and 4 in the GLSCS......thats going to really help this class....

gino,why dont you call Allen instead of bicthen here!and hey guys,all I know is when everybody including myself wrecked with the 500's,it may have taken awhile,but we were back in the saddle,the 525's have proven to be way to costly in money,life and injury's!they belong in closed canopies not open boats!even back when A-boats and B boats were open,manufacturers didn't have these agressive bottoms,just straight v-bottoms and as the steps were introduced the maufacturers were puttin tops on them!now everybodys tryin to run these big motors with the steps with open boats and its gettin crazy!

By the way,If you formula guys could send a merry christmas to jacks wife and kids from our team and family it would be greatly appreciated!

Al,
We have F1 guys that read these posts but do not particpate in writing here....some of the teams for next year are working on there F1 boats as we speak...the last thing they need to hear is that some of the teams may be running in different santioning bodys because the rules did'nt go there way....if were going to build up a class and teams are going to race by the rules in hand we either do it or not....we don't have to start splitting teams up hear....alot of guys that you don't hear from on hear are getting feed up with all the changes.....Why can't all the F1 teams just get together and race no matter if its not the best for there particular boat....
I started this post for some positive input from teams that have been around for awhile...and we have had some good input from Tom, Eric and a few others.....not to put down a class if the rules are not exactly right.....

Gino

gino,

racers are very competitive people. if they don't feel they have a chance to win, then why would they race?

ray van

I agree....but are all the teams spending the same amout of money and time testing.....Mark and Randys boat were always up front in 2002....BC and BJ boat also but they will both tell you there engines are getting tired...and BC has spent alot of money on his boat this year...we all know that boat runs 82+ and would have been up front with a fresh engine in it we all know what BJ's boat can do and he would tell you his engine was not as strong...Some teams would have love to finshed 3rd all year in their boats.....we all know what we have going into a race and if you can't get your boat to run 80-82mph you will be up front....if you boat will only do 76-77 you are not going to be up front...but yet you have great competitors out this year....Look at SVL....their was'nt a team close to running with Steve M. do you think if Steve ran as hard as they could the races would have even been close.....but yet the class still keeps growing....
Just my thoughts.....

Gino

I don't know if I agree with this, you're putting to much into the top speed of the boat and not enough emphisis on setup for the conditions. I ran SCL and our boat was not even closs to being the fastest out there. We were the only boat running 6s so in addition to power loss in the tranny and having to carry an extra 1000# in the boat just about everyone was faster than us. Top speed was off the kilo mark by 6 - 8 mph. It just meant we had to spend more time testing and making sure the boat was setup perfectly for the conditions of the course. We knew that in a flat water race we were going to have to fight for 3rd or 4th. But when things got rought and boats couldn't run their flat out top speed we dominated since we had spent the time in setup.
Steve dominated because he tests, alot. So does Randy. When it comes to winning races there is no other option. You need to test and not just the day before the race. You also need to make the investment into props to make sure you're setup for all conditions.

screamin eagle and other's.

i don't understand what you guy's are complaining about on cost. a 500 efi package with same drive is a 3300 dollar diffrence then the 525 package. so please explain it to me.

as far as svl i can build one cheaper then a f1 boat. as far as expenses for the season they are the same.

off that topic i think is is great you guy's are talking and trying to get together and hope you do. ( but i don;t see it hapening )

Treadwell
oh one quik one. as far as speed if you went with a smaller engine the speeds would be down a little but not enough

gino,then why is your fountain parked!it can still finish a race,can't it?or is something like it wont compete in the top three so you parked it and teamed up with mark?I ran all year doing the best we could with 200 different circumstances pulling at different things,I still havent recovered finacially from that wreck a few years ago,god forbid I still dont have total use of my left arm,and now the problems with my right shoulder,lets not forget the divorce,the business,this god forsaken ecomomy(remember I'm in the recreational business),loss of sponsors,attorneys,my beautiful kids,attorneys,and the attorneys,how would you like to pay someone across the board to take you to court to try to divide the value of a boat that in the last couple of years has lost 40% of its value and hasn't even been registered!,well I know you know about the value part youve got one sittin also!thank god scott and his family have helped with their support this year and have been just fantastic,and you have to compete against a boat that has more power and mercury racing has chosen to put more time in than most!so quit preaching to me about this crap,I've been racing alot longer than you,this is a business to me and thats what helps to me consider the choices that confront me...and by the way,BC did have a fresh engine this year,and mine only has about ten hrs since freshening and innovation has chosen not to support the engines they've built,so quit preachin charlie brown!Ive spent well over 250,000 dollars in the F1 series since I've raced in it!

Al,
What are you talking about...this post started with getting idea's for racing F1 or should we just let it die..thats what this post is about....I have had 2 back surgeries in 2 years...what dose that have to do with preaching..we all have been hurt racing..your saying the class is to dangerous just say it and don't race it...thats the point I'm getting at....but we have alot of guys that still want to race it.....you have not even said what you are doing for next year...are you racing in F1? Yes or No.

I'm not here to ***** at you...put get you storie straight...Mark and I were going to race my boat this year...because Marks boat was sold...the deal fell threw 1 month before the season and he disided to race his....so you see that would have been 3 years of getting killed in aboat and knowing it was not competitve....If your boats not competitve so be it...how aboUt we ban all Activators and Kryptinites from F1'S

Once again this post was for possitive input...you should read it again...and their is some good info about if the class should even go on...plus contrarie to your belief...I have got a large number of e-mails with great input about this subject...people who don't want to post on hear because of negitive **** like this.....
Take it for what it is!!!!!!

then like I said in the upper top posts,why dont you call allen and get involved in whats best for our class,and it aint negative,its facts!and I aint ******** about activators or kryptonites or any other boats,my boat has beatum all at one point or another!now If you would like some real insight on whats really goin on then give a call,I'm always here!813-247-3049!

Al,
Again I'm not here to argue with you.... Allen is the F1 rep....and I told him I don't care what pack. is run for 2004 I will run what ever the rules are....and if we all do that or all agree on a engine pack. we don't need LLC rules...we will all run the same....but we the racers can't agree....so I will stand by LLC's rules....So you know I stepped away from all the F1 bickering...but I continue to get e-mails from F1 guys to get back involved....I have sponsors for next year I have an opertunity to run in a number of F1 boats and a few boats on Sunday.....I'm asking input from long time racers to see if I want to even want to race F1 anymore and just bring in sponsors for the sunday races.....thats what I'm doing here.....I have an oppertunity if its money to give some to the F1 teams if it brings more teams in.....thats what I'm trying to do help us all...more boats brings me more sponsorship money.......if its going to be a cluster F. then its time for me to move up.......

Eric,
I will say I did'nt see it your way when you said the factory class's are falling in the past and from hearing you ,Tom and others its makes alot of sence......it not if we get ejected...its just a matter of time before we get ejected.....
Thanks for your guys input..
Gino

How is that positive?

Damm.. Al,
It is positive...its a true statement from racers that have been there....and have seen it first hand.....and you are showing the readers why alot of them don't post...because all the bullsh#t somepeople write.....
Once again for the 3rd time I posted this for input from racers.....not how LLC won't listen to the F1 guys....or any other comments.....So you know I have gottin 3 e-mails so far about how stipid you are being on this post....don't take it personally......your bit#hing about something that has nothing to do with this post......
You need to put some of you positive or negitive in the wet-pits towards the F1 class.....I posted here and the wet pits because you also get good input on OSO....
Give it a rest.....

Why don't you give me a call and we can talk about this....

I will Al,
Give me alittle bit....I'm working on somrthing right now...
Talk to you soon.
Gino

al,

damm your a pain in the ass, so let's put it bluntley. three years ago when you were buying your boat and svl existed then would you have not bought one if you new you were going to crashand have the injuries you did. in the end are your injuries worth it because it was a simple matter of ordering a roof that does not coast anymore money.

Treadwell

Eric,four years ago they were A boats when I was racin for formula!,and they had big money motors in them!!!!!I was wrenchen on one myself,and ready for that boat to set a new kilo record when they swapped to the detuned supercat motor three years ago which was also 20 grand plus to build a motor and business was also triple what it has been in the past few years,and I didnt have the time to wrench on a big SVL,or A motor unless it was a customers,so I guess the answer would be no!and dont ever call me a pain in the ass,you also helped keep my boat on top the year of that accident,you know what expenses I laid out,and you also know what I helped you out with...and Gino and I got on the same page with some insight after a 45 minute phone call last night,so be easy brother!

Al,
And I will say if we all got on the page as we both agree on we would have a huge class in F1 for 2004 and have a competitve on also....
Thanks for the conversation...

Gino

see,I'm not a pain in the ass,just alittle hard headed,or maybe just as hard headed as the rest of our kind!

Your pretty fiesty for a little guy Al:eek: :D