That seems to be what was added with the new Pro Racing membership option for 2004, also an elected commission again. And thanks for the ego boost.

Don't flatter yourself. From what I have seen and heard, your name would never be mentioned in the same sentence as their names.

phatom1,
say what you want i wasn't comparing myself with them. thats tom abrams who allweis called a rat and boycotter not me. who do you think is right?
I don't know who you are please tell. thanks.

I owned and raced a SVL Phantom for 3 years. I bought it and set up for A Class, only to have the rules changed 10 months later when Super V Lite was "invented". New rules and increased fees with the promise of being included in the "Super Series". We got less exposure that year than we did as A Class. Not happy, but I lived with it. After awhile it got old and I sold the boat in 2001.......have not even gone to watch a race since.

Boat racing was a hobby - nothing more, nothing less. I had fun and avoided taking it too seriously. I respect MA for his efforts, but he has the diplomacy of a bulldozer.

To me APBA is still the best of the bunch. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are great, but maybe they suck the least of all of the alternatives. Think about it.

thank-you, i have the same feelings and thats why i'm poker running.
imagine if all the people like us would race again?
i'm too tired to type more and i'd probally mis-spell and be called a idiot.

The new racers have all the answers...........or so they think.

Next year ought to be interesting. :rolleyes:

Outer, all you have to do is hit the spell check button, if you spent half the time hitting the spellcheck button as you did talking about it,your spelling would be perfect:cool:

i know i'm lazy,sent you a p.m. read my other post in general discusion. i think that get it done.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phantom1
Boat racing was a hobby - nothing more, nothing less. I had fun and avoided taking it too seriously. I respect MA for his efforts, but he has the diplomacy of a bulldozer.

LMAO ! I agree with you , you get more done with honey than you do with vinegar !! :crazy:

:D ;) :D

Glad to see the creation of a professional class, however I am a firm believer that paying to be part of that class is a mistake. You can't buy professionalism or class. At least it does include a code of conduct, but in liu of the cash payment, or maybe in addition to it there needs to be other governing rules and events. Things like the teams must be present and in uniform in the pits all days of the events to meet fans. Teams must have "hero" cards, participate in all race parades, and even participate in dinners with the fans. Without interaction with fans and sponsors then the pits just becomes another boring boat show.

Well as to the philosophical portion of your argument let me point something out that seems to get overlooked..... I buy a $250,000 boat, pay registration fees, entry fees, collect sponsors, get crew to the races, pay for accomodations, fuel, upkeep, have to pay for your choice of Co. to certify my motors, etc, etc. I think that the financial "gut check" argument isnt working here. I have a stake in what happens at APBA.

The red flag that keeps popping up is the $5000 figure. First there was talk of having to pay a penalty for running the Merc motors, now $$ to be a "pro". This raises some bad gut feelings about where this is headed.

I want to race, make no mistake. I am not a fool though and I will not be the first guy, or the tenth guy to pony up cash on top of the other cash to race. Let me see that other teams are going to run my class and are paying the membership and then I will consider paying also. There is this "mexican standoff" that is going to happen because I speculate that nobody will want to be the first to pony up.

The other thing that concerns me is that by giving decision making to the teams that pay the "pro" membership may possibly exclude other teams that race hard, that care, and that cant afford to lay out allot this $$. This would possibly put things back into "wallet Racing" mode with the big$$ teams creating the rules to benefit them and creating a distinct advantage. The little guys get no TV coverage, sponsors go away, and the gap widens. Do you agree??

Lastly Mike, as I am sure you are aware I am the new guy here. I want to be a part of an organization that puts on first rate events, that makes safety a priority, and puts forward an image of this sport that is fitting. I also want to see what I am buying before I cut a check. The bottom line is that there are more guys like me out here that would like to be a part of the sport but will not buy a "pig in a poke". I have concerns based upon representations from some local politicians here in Daytona about last years race. In fact there was an air show 2 months ago where Embry-Riddle asked some local boaters to put on a demonstration as part of the show. When the city heard this they thought that there was an affiliation with APBA and said "absolutley NOT". After multiple assurances that APBA was not involved we were allowed to participate. I dont know what happened last year but I do know that Daytona is not on the schdule this year...... The motorsports capital of the nation. These things need to be addressed.

Brett

Let me get this right???...you would like more money from us and we STILL have not been paid for st.pete, no trophy from st.pete and no national trophy yet!!

"money where their mouth was"....ok,,,so please send my check and trophies like you said you would!

does not the word "professional" by definition mean; Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football????

Point of clarification - I am not laying blame. If you are talking about actual equity investment does that mean that shares of LLC can be purchased??

It stands to reason that the "underwriting" of the sport for the forseeable future will come from the racers.

I have been involved on and off since 1993 as a Team Owner, and it seems to me that the ONLY reliable income stream we have had over the years has been the Racers and Owners, and an occasional Sponsor.

Investing in the infrastructure is a good idea. If you can couple that with some form of UNIFICATION, then it becomes a great idea because we can build a much stronger, valid and sustainable infrastructure if we are investing in a single effort vs. two or three different ones.

OSS has some good ideas, APBA has had some good ideas and SBI has had some good ideas, all requiring Capitalization, racer support and manpower (or Womanpower) to execute them, and sustain them in order to validate the business model.

I for one have no problem at all investing in the infrastructure, I see it has having a direct positive impact on my overall "program". We all know the importance of TV, most of us would like to have an environment conducive to some form of serious marketing effort relating to Sponsorship for our individual teams.

My preference would be to only have to invest in ONE infrastructure, rather than several.

We all have substantial investments in our teams, the proposed fee seems like a small price to pay for some security, some degree of control and an "Insurance policy" for a place to race in 2004.

Gregg Reichman

With all of this BS going on, I would think that teams should be jumping the APBA ship and running to the SBI side of the fence.

Mike,
I understand the need to raise revenues and the need to pull the "professionals" together into one group. There have been some comments made about the investments teams have made to race, the $5k is just a very small percentage so I think this really comes down to revenues to the LLC. However, a business model where revunes comes from the racers will not work and there will be no substantial growth. Without generating revenues from outside sources the path of offshore will never change. Generating revenues from the outside sources is no easy task compounded by all the "issues" that surround the sport. So the question really becomes how to fund bringing the sport to a professional level so generating revenues becomes possible?

Gary,

We were on that road until the APBA fight, the Mercury fight, the Lee Mills fight and the boycott drained the LLC of its resources and its Members of their willingness to fight by themselves.

Take my personality out of it for the moment as I think we have all established that I am a bull in a china shop, a lawyer, an @Q#$@#$hole, etc.

Let's just take a look at the business plan that we developed and for the most part successfully executed for the past 4 years.

1. Develop the racing product into a legitimate motorsport. Most would agree we did that.

2. Develop the television product into an entertaining network quality broadcast property that draws significant viewership, excellent advertisers and good ratings. We have done that too especially this year. SPEED's decision to move us into a great Sunday time slot is proof positive of that. Plus, have you noticed the quality advertisers that are appearing in our shows and the increasing number of non-boat racers who say they see our shows on TV?

3. Develop a solid event marketing business with well produced events, a consistent schedule, and quality venues.

We have done poorly with the scheduling aspects of the event business but certainly the quality of our events are much better than just a few years ago. Also, year five of the business - i.e. 2004 - was when we expected to begin seriously developing the event business.

I would also point out that John Carbonell has done a far superior job on this third aspect of the business and currently has a model that works well. I believe that is one of the reasons why so many people have been advocating unity so loudly of late.

Our success with numbers 1 and 2 produced GM, clearly a flagship sponsor and one we could build upon. The plan was actually to promote the GM sponsorship to other non-marine related companies and increase the revenue base accordingly.

Mercury/Brunswick should have been the next logical group of companies to take a part in our series and still is the most logical next step.

One of the best people in our sport has an incredible relationship with Anheuser Busch but he cannot be expected to push very hard to expand that relationship beyond his own program as long as the turmoil surounding the sport exists.

The above plan is solid and has been working. I think it still can work especially if some semblance of unity can be established.

The racer investment, however, is necessary now but only as a short term solution, and here is why: With all of the uncertainty and damage which has been caused this year, our momentum has come to a screaching halt. We are not going to bring in new sponsors this year.

The sport needs immediate capital and the people most likely to make that short term investment - think of it almost like bridge financing - are the racers and other passionate enthusiasts with close ties to the sport.

With enough money infused into the sport in the short term, the racing product can be maintained, the tv product can be maintained, and the event marketing business can be developed.

If that happens and GM continues to receive value for the next two years then we can secure the next level contract from that great company and other divisions within that company. Moreover, we send the message that this year's troubles were an anomoly and have been rectified. We can re-establish stability and credibility too which could and should lead the companies we were talking to a renewed interest.

Now if you add some form of workable unification to the mix, you can develop the outside, non-marine money into the sport.

But I can say with absolute certainty that OSS will destroy the sport and set it back 10 years. As Gregg says there is simply not enough equipment to support all of the different series. As a sport consisting of multiple clubs like poker runs, yes. As a professional sport with significant outside money coming in, you can forget it. It is an unrealizable pipe dream to believe otherwise.

Let me also say that if the sport loses GM you can forget about any significant company touching this sport for a long, long time.

The leaders of OSS do not care about sponsorship, television or prize money. That is the old recipe for big money club racing where cubic dollars from the big money teams controls everything. THAT most certainly is not the answer.

Mike

i have one question ( as a small time racer) where do the p classes fit in?? everthing is SUPER SEIRES, we run 6 races last year won 3 were leading in 2 and broke. will this 5000 dollars give us tv time so we can get a sponser to move up? we got 2 min. last year! or will we still be nobody that make up half of the boats at a race!

mack p5-10

Hey Mack.......

We will still be nobody. Even though we make up half the fleet

One thing is for sure; history repeats itself in offshore powerboat racing.Every time this sport comes close to getting to the next level, it self destructs....APBA...HFC Pro Series...OPT...SBI.. USO... PROPS...APBA LLC....now OSS...where does it end?

Mike A.,Steve M. and rest of the APBA LLC, like them or not, successfully legitimized a "rich mans club sport" through:

1.COMPETITION BASED RULES=better racing for the racers and the fans
2.STADIUM STYLE RACE COURES="live" spectator appeal for the fans and deck to deck racing for the racers
3.IMPROVED TELEVISION=increased fan base, and sponsor opportunities for the race teams, the series and individual venues.
4.SERIES SPONSORS=GM lease program...a monumental accomplishment in so many ways...other series sponsors increasing involvement as well.

The sport was in better shape than ever earlier this year.....what happened?Were there major problems; yes, but they could of and should of been worked out.
The point is, will anyone else be able to do it better, and how can the sport SURVIVE with so many orginizations COMPETING for a limited number of race teams?History has proven that this has, and will set the sport back....maybe forever!Somehow,someway everyone needs to get together and work this all out.
There is so much at stake...so JUST DO IT!

Mark / Waterboy,I totally agree with you.

RACING!! how many time did you see the super boat racing close at the end of a race? how many times did you see p5 or p4 racing deck to deck at the end? almost every time. the best race i was in theirs year was Ft Lau. Todd and us ran back and forth the whole race we beat him by about 100 feet. how much TV time? i think 15 sec and they want 5k. before that i will have to see some benefits we already get no money and very little TV so what is to gain?

SBI pays out for P-class and so does OPA. so cmon up to play. TV time isnt great either.

OPA had 2 races this year that paid 3,000 for 1st place in all classes. and it may be more this year. Last time i looked at a map, Virginia isnt too far from Md. or NJ for that matter

I also believe GLSCS pays out P class winnings.

More boats=more sponsors=bigger purse. Sounds good to me

we are think very hard about opa where can i get rule or are the the same as sbi?

I can hook you up with a rule book. We will be running GPSs next season.

And it would be great to have you nuts run with us nuts.

We had alot fun w/ you down in ST Pete. I look forward to play time

Not to be long winded....but the latest fragmentation of offshore powerboat racing is very similar to what is continuing to destroy indy car racing.

IRL(Indy Racing League)
Tony George: one man who has final say on every aspect of the sport
Spec technical rules to limit technology and the costs of racing and to improve the level of competition

CART(Championship Auto Racing Teams)
Controlled by rich team owners who agree to disagree on everything
Much more liberal technical rules, state of the art equipment, higher costs, level of competition continually declining

Although the IRL has survived and some would say thrived, by having more cars and better racing than CART, and attracting some of the biggest teams and drivers from CART, and maintaining the INDY 500;..the sport has suffered from a declining fan and sponsor base.Even some team owners and drivers have left altogether or gone on to NASCAR.
And CART, most people think thier days are numbered.

we are real close to you only about 5 hours instead of 14 sounds great to me.

who you calling nuts? we are Jokers but our wifes call us insane i dont get it

OPA paid that much?? $5000 pays for alot of trips up to Jersey to race.......

d-law... thats correct

They had a $25,000 purse in Atlantic City and in Cambridge Maryland thanks to CBPBR. $5,000 per class 5 classes.

And with a little luck and sponsorship it may be available in other races as well.

On the subject of P class. The llc has done a great job getting it going. However I think the LLC should put 99% of it's focus on the "professional" classes. However the LLC should have a small oversight to a P class committee that is comprised of the local clubs. The committee would then jointly develop rules that all the clubs would follow. The LLC would be the keeper of the rules. Then when the P racers come to national events everyone would be used to playing by the same rules.
The local clubs should work with the LLC to organize P class races at national events. Naturally they should be able to use all the resources of the LLC for "cost". At the event itself the pits should be divided where the "professional" classes pit together and the P classes pit together. I say this because I feel you need to hold the "pro" racers to a higher standard. The local club would then also have the option to make the pit area free to fans for P and have an entry fee for the "pro" area. The pits are usually a mess and half the time the teams aren't even with the boats. When you charge fans to enter the pits the teams must be there for the fans to see. The boats should be close and well organized.

So if the OSS guy's don't include the smaller boats , it's time for the smaller boats to get some coverage. It's some of the best racing out there and maybe it'll take the grass roots guy's to get this mess straightened out. Mack you the man! BH

Mike A.,
I agree, the biggest accomplishment that you Steve M. and the rest of the APBA LLC achieved was competitive parity in the Super Series, Factory Series AND the Outlaw Performance Series!Maybe some people have forgotten the days of only a couple boats in many of the classes running around by themselves and finshing so far apart that it was hard to actually call it a "race".

I was fortunate enough to race a few races in Super Vee and F1 this year in APBA, and while the teams' I raced with never had a podium finish, it was a huge thrill anyway even battling in the mid or back of the pack.I have the most respect for the race teams, that race after race, compete to the best of thier ability and resources and seldom finish up front.And with the pre and post race tech inspections, it was clear that we had been beaten fair and square.Have you ever heard a car racer say "thats racing".....maybe some boat racers should be listening:rolleyes:

You can see the writing on the wall....allowing the racers to make the rules has never worked in this or any other "professional" motorsport; and it never will!
:mad:

I dont think that many of the the critics really understand how difficult it is to organize and promote offshore powerboat racing.I guess many of them will find out soon enough.:eek:

Hopefully, offshore powerboat racing's New Years' resolution will be UNIFICATION....its long overdue.:eureka: :D

I never had a problem with the LLC creating the rules. It's the changing of the rules that is a problem. Rules should be in place for 5 years with a 2 year notification of any rule change.

Mr Velocity,
Good points.I actually think the APBA LLC was headed in this direction through trying to revive divisional racing.I totally agree that there needs to be some sort of seperation of the "Professional" classes and the "P" classes in terms of organization and promotion.I also think it would be a good idea to rename the "P"classes the "Sportsman" classes.

PRO CLASSES national circut/ serious racing.. rigid tech rules...professionalism= television,fan and sponsor friendly,run by APBA
Super Cat
Super Cat Light
Super Vee
Super Vee Light
Factory 2
Factory 1

SPORTSMAN CLASSES divisional circut ...fun entry level racing "run what you brung rules"reduced cost to participate, jointly run by APBA,OPA,GLSCS,POPBRA etc..
The club or "Sportsman" event could be part of the "Pro"
event and be mutually beneficial to both groups

This format is followed in other major motosports, why not offshore?

Hey Waterboy,You are right on the money with the super series rules where the boats had equal parrity but I dont think that the parity spilled over to the P classes,ther eare still to many of the wrong boats meaning size,horse power,and number of single vs twin engine applications running in the wrong classes but I Think that OPA is on the correct direction to hopefully correct that problem this year.APBA did the best job by far to get parrity to the racers but then it went to the crapper as usual like it normally does for some reason with boat racing.Well I hope that it all works out and we will see were we will run for 2004.

i still don't get it why pay 5k to get nothing, nothing has been said positive about p classes. we race in p5 because it all we can afford. does that make us less professional less of a racer, i think not. different pits we are already put in a corner somewhere out of the way, told we have to move to make room after setting up. all i see this as doing is running me to opa. because there i still want get TV time but i know that upfront and they want to race like me.

mack

I have no problem with name sportsman classes. But I have to smile. The more things change the more they remain the same. Somebody want to give a history lesson?:) A B C D

I didn't think the 5K was intended for P classes.