Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Everyone always says they would come back if they would use a less expensive engine package...it's there.... HAS BEEN!...your 500 efi can be upgraded and sealed to a 525 by innovation for damn near the same as a rebuild, aprox 7K i think! and w/ a lot less issues in a factory boat.

"Would you add a little weight to level the playing field so more boats can come out and race"....A BIG NO! the snap on boat is VERY fast with 500's in it...in fact 2 other 525 have not been able to beat it this year. we are the heiviest boat as it is!!!8900#!!! we spend 80 hours week(most weeks)...it really doesn't matter what rules or what class, we're going to put in the effort! as is snap on....donzi seems to have good teams in a good boats...donzi is making better products....maybe the other companies should look at making a better product to compete, rather than changing the rules so they do not have to.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

John Kostelac...your right on!

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Ever been on the beach watching other classes race while you're waiting your turn on the race course, and a fan see's your jersey and asks "who's winning?" Then watch the excited look on their face turn to confusion as you explain who's actually doing what in which class out there.

This is our sport's biggest dilemma: we have relatively small numbers of boats, so we try to create and maintain classes that accomodate EVERYONE that has a boat and wants to race it. Now, in general, that's not a bad position to take, but when you're trying to gain fan confidence, who in turn buys the products that are emblazoned in fancy graphics on the side of our boats, which in turn makes our sponsors happeir, so next near's team budget grows, massive numbers of classes are not helping.

F1 guys are still figuring out what's the best 1-1-1 combo to run. There's still disagreement on the engine manufacturer, much less cubic inches, HP, and stuff. A-Boats (and F1, for that matter) are fighting for survival. Some F1 and A-Boats have thrown in the "spec" towel and stuck a P4 number on their hull, fragmenting the classes further.

I say "screw the spec motors" and give these groups just some loose rules to remain competitive, (like X-compression ratio, Y carb venturi sizes, Z-cubic inches) and let them go with any engine builder they choose. Or, they can keep their current engine package, because it's fits the wider spec. Let them run any hull they think they can be competitive in. Let them choose their own drive supplier. Who cares what X-dimension they want. OK, maybe limit prop sizes for some parity and safety factor. Who cares if they drill a couple of extra holes in the oil galleys because it may make their engine last longer, or run faster. As long as "no dry sump" is in the rules, who cares what happens inside. Bet you'll bring a bunch of retired F1 and A-boats back together, and when there's 20 boats all racing against each other, our fans and sponsors will be able to say "Hey!, Joey's winning!"

Call it Open Vee racing (for a moment)

Multiply this concept times two. Take the same looser rules, and apply them to twin-engine boats. B-Boats are completely gone. F2 boats are getting there. There are still a number of P4 and P3 vee bottoms that could easily comply with some light rule changes, and I'll bet you'll see some old retired teams taking another look.

OK, so this is Open Vee, and the single-engine class is Open Vee Light. With some real consolidation, you could use the OSS model (chit, did I just say that?) and have six classes that cover EVERYTHING. SC, SCL, SV, SVL, OV, OVL. Not 21, six. Six with large numbers per class.

Something needs to be done. I've been trying to grow my program, and after only two years in racing P4 class, I'm finally gathering some interest from sponsors. But unless some changes happen to grow/unify/consolidate this sport, I'll NEVER be able to quit my day job.

And that's what sucks the worst.

Cheers,
Brian

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

This thread asked " what can be done to bring APBA back". Most talk about the goal but what is the road map to reach the goal? Who will relinquish power so all of OS can benefit?
It seems to me that money could fix many of the issues. As it appears the OSS teams have more than most, maybe it is time to invest more $ to move forward.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Benperfected,,,, I'm in lets put our money were our mouths are. It is time to shine,,,you have an willing partner here.Let this be the first of many steps forward.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Benfercted, everyone is avoiding directly answering the question to keep it from getting personal, we all have our politically correct opinions of which organization should be the party of choice. However until any organization is strong enough and has enough to offer to attract racers that have to fit there classes, racers will continue to run where ever they feel the best chance of them winning is with the boat they already own, ie A- class was revived for a couple of boats, why weren't they just added to the p classes already in place?( no offense to anyone just an observation ) P4-33/brian good ideas but a tech nightmare, without seals or certs on HP, nobody would be happy with that, we as racers cannot even agree on GPS racing. I think some f class racers dropped off due to safety concerns, thus SV and SVL was developed, and as stated by an organization offical once "that alot of f class boats were financed as pleasure boats and they termed them as credit card racers", the economy was much better then. Not my opinion just info I digested through the years.....maybe some truth some where in the middle.
How can we bring it back? Build and organization that listens to the racers, but does not cater to their every whim! I Think progression is the answer as N2 stated. The local, regional and national levels. Keeps all boats that are racing some where to race and the incentive to move up the ladder. I see it at the local track the sportsman driver wants to go to sprints, sprints to busch, busch to nascar. Not let me modify my sportman and run at Daytona.
John Kostelac

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

I like the idea of local racers racing in one of 5 P classes like OPA and great Lakes have done. I also agree there needs to be less classes on a national circuit as well. 3-4 classes max so each class would run by themselves. Keep everyone in a Merc 525 for all classes. If F classes would all run the 525 they could always use there equipment if they stepped up and just buy a hull like we did. Keep it simple 525 for everyone! Even if I had a P boat I would by a 525.

Next question. How many classes do you all think there should be on a national level and a local level.
MD

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

The only way more classes will work is if there are more heats with less miles per heat and thats fine with me as well. I don't need to race for 45-60 miles to see who is the best on that day. Make it more exciting with 25-30 miles where everyone is close and the race is interesting to watch.

Next question. Do you ever leave a race to get food,drink or just get out of the sun because its to long and after the first two laps you knew who was going to win anyway. I have more than once.
MD

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Randy,

Did you just say get rid of anything that doesn't run a 525? That leaves

Factory
SVL
SCL
SV

Interesting concept, unless you own a SuperCat. Then again, SV stepped down to a 525. Imagine all classes running a 525? Very interesting. I think you just made some SC guys cringe.

J

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Ok you guys can hash it out in 30 min on www.talkoffshore.com. Call in @ 800-582-2150

AC

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Hello again,

My post was based on a few general concepts:

1) Less classes equate to more boats per class
2) Larger boat counts promote a larger race fan following
3) Fans find it easier to identify who's winning
4) More fans attract sponsors looking for product recognition by those fans
5) More sponsors build better, more prepared race teams
6) Better prepared teams attend more races, attract more fans (see #2)
7) More fans return to see their favorite teams, even travel to do so
8) Race promoters recognize more fans, attract and secure choice venues
9) Sanctioning bodies secure series sponsors, offer bigger prize purses
10) Bigger prize purses attract more race teams, thus more fans (see #2)

Looser tech requirements worked in Offshore A and B for many years. It might take some getting used to, but I don't think the nightmare would be all that bad. I believe that the very strict (and changing) tech requirements are what led to the departure of F1 and F2 teams.

Cockpit boats, for the most part, have consolidated into 4 classes. Why not do the same with us open boats, and figure out a way that we can put on a show like the Factory classes did a few years ago?

Good topic for Talkoffshore... and then some.

See ya,
Brian

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

you'll love this

there is no stepping stone in this motorsport...any fool can spend a mil on a 160mph boat and overnight they are deemed a professional racer! hell you don't even have to read the rule book!!!

seems offshore racing has always had the same problem...how to get new racers and MORE importantly, how to keep them....maybe it's in the demographic of people??? or maybe we should just give in to the idea of this is what offshore racing is and always will be??? but i think if you can make skateboarding a serious sport then we have a chance...don't we???

put P class back at a local level...race P class all you want but no national or world championship...no more building purpose built p-class boat to mop up on everyone...no more; i can not be competitive in a premier class so i'll take a 90+mph boat and make it a 80mph max boat, FOR WHATEVER REASON you may have. decide what the premier classes are and stick with it....contrary to what people think, innovation can still build you a 500hp engine...as they can also make a 500efi into a 525hp for very little $$....the APBA should be making the rules....NOT manufactures....wana race or watch from the sidelines while other manufactures take your market-share!??

NO signing up for pro license...you have to race one of a few boats at a local level and acquire so many points prior to applying for a professional offshore racing license. just like ANY other serious professional motorsport.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

i agree with MM on the classes with the exception on SLV...no real money in it for a manufacture...there is for F2 manufacture.there needs to be war between manufactures...MX/SX,,auto racing,,,superbike, supersport...how about between OL and fountain???

what lead to the departure of F classes?...somewhere people got the idea they could race a pleasure boat on the weekends they were not hauling the wife and kids around. is any racing really like that???..sure, AMA supersport, NASCAR, SX/MX!LOL...it's all what you can go into your dealer showroom and buy right???LOL....just pay the $$ and your a pro.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

randy is on to something....shorter races...saturday=practice...REAL practice/testing with the course in place...sunday=2 races, maybe on two different courses...

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Joe tell us what you really think. Don't hold back now!!!!!
MD :rolleyes:

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

I also like the idea of having to put in your time at the local level before you step up to the national level. It should be something to aspire to and not a money issue that you can buy into.
MD

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

If you limit the national classes to SVL and up, you'll have what, 40 - 45 boats maybe on the east coast. Do a REAL national series across the country and you'll have 30 or less. How do you pay the bills and have TV and all the other good stuff we all want with a limited boat count? You might find splitting off a national series is just another way to make the pie smaller and less interesting to all. Really doesn't do much for unity.

J

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Tuesday night's show is now available at www.talkoffshore.com in the archives.

Show featured Jeff Ayler, Jerry Gilbreath, Randy "Mad Dog" Schluess, Dan Dillon and Martin Sanborn talking about how to improve the sport of offshore racing.

Enjoy!

AC

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Jim, 40-50 boats in 3 classes makes one hell of a show!
MD

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

...and what 3 classes woud that be?

J

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

SCL,SV,F2.

MD...you were really good(GREAT) on TO last night....funny how the #'s keep getting BIGGER....F2 boats are now going 95MPH in a race!! over 30 F2 back in the day...funny how the CURRENT F2 WORLD SPEED record is still 92 and change....held by a 500HP engine BOAT!

how MANY of those boats in St. Pete had a chance at winning that race!LOL...more like how many got lapped!

MD was RIGHT on about speed and safety...don't like it? thinks it's too fast??...STAY HOME!!! slowing the boats down is NOT the answer!...funny how you see P boat racers wearing MX helmets out there...160mph OPEN boats...jackets that look like they have been left out in the sun for years...you say F class is too fast....then make the rule NOTHING is racing w/o a lid going faster than 80....but to tell a veteran of the sport he's going too fast and in the same breath have it ok for some green,newbi, P-class 90mph+, MX helmet wearing, never opened the rule book, jacka$$,,,RACE...i have a problem with that.

i tell you there was plenty more opportunity for me to get dead REAL fast this weekend hit'n 60'ers on a MX bike then there is OFFSHORE racing!...AND THERE IS 12 year olds doing it!!!

ASK any current AMA superbike guy what it's currently like as opposed to 10 years ago??...they are spinning the rear wheel at damn near 200mph at Daytona!!! down right scary $hit!

i really get sick about people talking about slowing down...especially when you have a grandma and grandpa out there kicking a$$...yeah, snap-on!...even after a spin out and Brian breaking a helmet and his fingers...Wilma having her clavicle crushed by Brian impacting her...then finishing the race!!! so if grandma and grandpa are not complaining....NEITHER SHOULD ANYONE ELSE!...and if ya think you can give them a run (they use 500efi's)??...come on out and see how aggressive they really are!

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Lets start bashing SAFETY now. :rolleyes: Speed and SAFETY have always played a roll in motorsports.... every hear of a restrictor plate?

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

yeah...they are already wearing trick safety gear...hans devices, fire suits, the latest helmets....shall i go on???i see a lot of R&D going into other motorsports... :rolleyes: ....i know, 900 bucks is going to kill the teams with a mil budget!LOL

like i said,,,a guy w/an open 160mph small cat can race...but F class is too fast!LOL

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

maybe,,,,just maybe,,,,if they slow the F2 class down, other manufacture using OLD technology can compete?...hummm....like my late friend steve simon said,,,step up or stay home.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

How about a rule that says "no rule changes without a 12 month (or more) notice.

It's funny how this same conversation has been going on for decades.

I totally agree with 4 or 5 national classes, the rest should run in divisional events. And a pre set number of points before attending a national race makes a lot of sense.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Mark,
Great post. Good suggestions. I would ask you to give so more thought to the non-national class racing. Look at the potential fleet in the GLSCS. Are 5 classes necessary? What thoughts do you have about improving the current P-Class rules? Is there a better method than GPS? I would like to race in a format that has no penalty for breaking out and little incentive to throttle back. The fastest boats on that day win. What then? Adjust if necessary. Other motor sports mandate adjustments to seek parity; this isn't a new concept.
This means that the GLSCS would need a 2-3 person team of non-racers to decide based on set up ( props. RPM and history) what class each boat races. This class is NOT determined by the racer! If adjustments are necessary, the racer has three choices. Change to the recommended set up, change to the next class, or don't race.
How do you win the series? The points stay with the boat. Regardless of class, the racers with the most points are the GLSCS winners.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Looks like a lot of ego's here ,, I guess somethings where not meant to be, this is obviouslly one of them.. Gentelmen I wasn't tring to reinvent the wheel
I mearly was after a unification of the sport ,for what I thought was for a better future for offshore racing . This could really be a great thing ,there are some talented people out there and a lot of them are on this board now.This "dream if you will"of mine to have a offshore race team has been more work than putting together a Nextel team with alot less EGO problems and working with a lot more money people and bigger named sponsors. Until you get the bull by the balls this will never be more than what it is now.
The team owners should have manufactors calling them on a weekly basis, but I don't see that happening until YOU create a bigger need for them to do this {like Nextel Cup } people call weekly begging for there product to be used by teams offering insane deals to the teams. Right now the boat manufactors just poke along knowing you'll be there to fork out the money for there beloved product. COMPETITION is a good thing make them work for you not the other way around.

Mark I'll call you and we'll talk further

ShaneB I sent you a reply on pm

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

N2,

I still agree with what you are saying. In the GLSCS the racers voted to have the GPS not the executive board. The racers need to be involved. Spec racing is great it's been around for a long time. THe problem is in the past groups changed rules due to money issues not the betterment of the sport. The almighty dollar killed racing. I can remember back when eighteen boats got together and raced for a beer can trophey and no prize money. Just to prove who was the big dog. We really need to get input from all side. People who have never raced or been involved with boat racing cannot make the rules.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

"How do you win the series?"...you don't P-class should be for fun...if you want to race for a championship or $$$, then race a premier class, whatever that may be? even a F1 w/a GM create engine for all i care. stop with EVERYONE can win a national championship...

EGO's;;;why would someone build a cat with monster power only to go out and get spanked by a SCL w/525's???O, and spend more than 2x the money to do it???

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Joe,

You need to step back a little. The GLSCS been around for (8) years with the Divisional racer in mind. We have worked hard to delivery quality races for our racers to participate in. Ask anyone out there that has been to one of our races, they are fun and exciting.

We have brought in sponsors to make the racing better. This season not only do we have our Television program which we have had for (5)seasons, we have also increased our prize money and provided a $20k High Points fund for each of our (7) classes. This might not mean much to you, but how big is the High Points fund for your class, how many times will your sponsors be shown on National T.V. We are not perfect nor do we claim to be. Our racers come first not egos. I do this for free and so does everyone else on our executive board. We love racing and have over thirty years experience doing it. Come see a race and maybe you'll change you position on the so called back yard racers and race-sites.

Regards,

Andrew D. Bloom
GLSCS Chairman

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Mr.Bloom, i misspoke and or was misunderstood(actually i misread)....i am speaking only of a national championship series...you are right, P-class, A-class,,,even Z class should have a place to run and have a divisional series to win in the class. i apologize.

and buy having a more elite national series, your divisional racing would get better as well!

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Thanks, and I agree. You need to have a group to start racing with, then step up from there. We need to pull these groups together to firm up dates so that races don't conflict and group together from time to time during the season as the GLSCS has done with OSS and put on some nice larger scale events. We are working now to join forces with the OPA group to bring the "P" class racers together. This is a start we'll see where it goes. Key West is a National Championship race. I'd love to see the day when the rules come together and the true UIM Championships can be brought back to the states.

Andrew Bloom

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

"I'd love to see the day when the rules come together and the true UIM Championships can be brought back to the states. "...so would i!...i really got excited when bob bull was talking about and international SCL class...WAY COOL!

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

[QUOTE]step up or stay home.
Well Joey, with that Phrase everyone except a few decided to stay home, that isnt to say you have a great boat with lots of test time as do the Ross's. It will take a lot to bring Factory class Back, Put a lid on your boat and move up to SV..

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

pete, if you read my post again, "that phrase" was intended for manufactures as it was when steve simon said it the first time.

i do not have a boat pete...the f2-21 was built as a f2 boat, not a sv...i do have a lot of input in the direction of jbs racing, but ultimately it is jeff's decision on what the team will do in 2005.

hey, if offing f2 at a national level is what they are going to do....so be it...just let us know sometime soon!

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

I understand Joe that it wasnt your statement, but needless to say that what the manufacture's did, was go home, it sucks to see that class die, but maybe thru your persistence it may come back.

MM, i have always been here just dont have the time right now, as i am in south america and dont have a computer all day long, but i will say this is a good thread, although it has gotten off the subject matter title. hope all is good in the motor city.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

klaatu i don't who the hell you are or what your name means....but, i kinda like the way you talk :D ....i read and re-read the words: "scl and svl"...AND could not get past them. thinking;that's about the dumbest idea i ever heard....when i finally moved on to finish reading your sentence...i thought that's gota be the most logical thing way to do it from a fans view point.

i am all for p-class/grass roots racing,,,at a regional level.

while i agree with combining oss and apba would be great!....i do disagree with...offshore racing has seen many of these same problems for years.

i for one, am not going to ridicule ya...your posts seem to be very logical. i think a 'new' set of eyes on old problems can be very effective. 100 $hit ideas can lead to a great one, such as the above mentioned...thanks

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

damn,,,your sure are good at making people feel dumb!

i find it difficult to put faces with names here on this board. so please find me when you are at the next race :D

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

There are alot of ideas-motor changes and rule changes.What ever happened to Mercury? We use and help develope their products. It would be great to see them promoting races and offering $ or products as prizes.I know Im new to all this and dont know everything but I still think that if there was more race promotions,more advertising,better coverage,and more prizes to be won then more teams would be racing.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

APBA gave Mercury a little cold shoulder when they brought GM Vortec into the picture. Mercury likes ot be big dog and need to be treated as such. You have to understand that the Hi. perf. business is so small it really doesn't impact their financials.