APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

I feel it is a shame that the APBA can not be brought back to a form that would be the industry leader ,,can anyone give some advice on how it can be back in full swing ? Does it need new leadership,or just a whole new start? Please advise as I would like to try to help in any way .

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

They should start by revising Factory racing. Now would be the time to launch the new rules for motor specs. The key is keep it simple with only one motor and one drive. This has been beaten to death and until APBA steps up and makes the call on which motor they will pick, the class will stay dead. It shouldnt be so hard to do,they just need to do it. Also F1 and F2 dont necessarily have to have the same motors. I would opt for the merc 525 package with the Sport master lower. Possibly lower the X dimension 1-2 inches and add 2-300 lbs to the weight of the older F1 boats. Limit propellers to 6 blades only. The goal would be to try to keep speed around 78-83 mph in F1. I dont see any other motor option other than the merc.525. Its the lowest race production hp motor they make now and will be making in the future. You can forget about the 500 EFI because it will be going away in the near future and then we would have to change again.
MD

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

I'll take a stab at this..........then you all can talk it out on Tuesday night on Talkoffshore.com.........

1) APBA Offshore goes back to Detroit.
2) A board is elected from the general membership with 50% of the Board up for reelection each year. Responsible for racing rules/safety rules/setting up oversite committees etc.
3) APBA Offshore accept all classes of offshore racing and any that racers want to create.
4) Racers will form individual approved entities for each class and mandate rules and that entity will become a member of APBA.
5) Promoters allowed to race the classes they want to race and not required to race all classes.
6) Class entities make their own deals/contracts with the promoters in regards to prize money, entry fees, pull money etc.
7) APBA board or committees test/set standards/approve a list of officials/promoters and vendors (ie safety) for the promoters to pick from and make their own arrangements.
8) Promoters can elect to participate in national series sponsorships if they want. Promoter's entities become a members of APBA.
9) APBA generates it's annual budget from equipment registrations and membership fees.
10) APBA get's out of the putting on the races and is solely responsible for sanctioning/marketing and is accountable to the racers.

There's 10 items to start the talk and we will see you on Tuesday night 9:00 on www.talkoffshore.com

AC

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

APBA Detroit has never really run offshore, the members run offshore just as they do in the other catagories, but at some time the lease thing will run it's course and and APBA Offshore will be faced with another fracture. The quickest way to bring APBA Offshore back is for it to go there to be reorganized.

While they race together, they are not unified and at some point there will be a split of the organizations and my guess is that the finger pointing will start again.

AC

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Ask yourselves, why would we want to reinvent APBA again? Racers are eventually going to race were its fun and convenient. Thats the way it is in club racing and Offshore is club racing.

We tried professional racing and it didn't last. I enjoyed the big boat count and the big name sponsors as did many of the racers. The money wasn't there to keep it going. Why do you think another reorganization is going to be any better?

There is more racing now than there has been in a long time. For the most part the racers seem to be enjoying it. Clubs are racing together. The Worlds will be a united Worlds. All classes are alive, just in different clubs.

If consolidation is going to happen, it's going to be evolutionary and happen out of necessity. Forcing the issue will just create another round of ego slapping.

We're racing and having fun.

My $.02

Jim

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

I am with Randy on this one. Except....I disagree on the motor/drive selections. I think if you want to really want to see the factory classes blossom....make it affortable. There are dozens of old factory one race boats sitting and rotting. Make it affortable buy offering a package of 496ho and bravo 1 any style. You can buy 2-3 496's for the price of 1 525. Not to mention all the problems the 525 has. If I could buy a old F1 boat and spend 10-13K on a new or 12K on 2 used 496's it would interest me....but if I have to spend 25k on a 525 forget it. 525 package is too fast/ expensive....period. The 496 package is becomming a highly used package in the production world. I know that some will argue that the 496 is a "black" motor and not "blue" but I have personal knowledge of whooping on the 496's for over 100 hours without failure/problems. If this package was announced NOW by the race orginizations you would see F1 as a dominate showing next year.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

I don't disagree with this statement, the question is when it's going to be necessary not if it will be necessary.

In answer to the F1 question, why wait for a sanctioning body to tell you what to do? The racers should mandate their own class rules and apply to the sanctioning body for membership. For that matter all classes should be able to do that and even new ones that are formed as long as the promoters can decide to race it or not by dealing directly with the class representatives.

Basically if it is an approved class then an approved promoter should be able to host who he wants as long as he uses approved safety entities and approved officials and conducts the races within the sanctioning body rules.

Let each class market themselves to the promoters and make their own deals. If a class is not marketable or the terms don't fit the promoters budget then the class will not race and the class members will have to make adjustments to make it marketable.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

We all know that for boat racing we should have only one sanctioning body not 4 or 5 with each having different rules and so on.
In reguards to all of the classes weather it is a factory class or a P class or Super Cat class the only way to give it parity and you will not be limited to one engine builder is to go with,for the engines is everyone runs an engine configuration made up of maximum cubic inch,maximum compression,and a spec carburator of some sort,also everyone runs the same exhaust,as for the boats all classes should have size and weight limitations not maximum speed or what ever else they are trying to do to try and level the playing field,I feel that if you did these simple things like they were done in the past and could keep it that way and not keep changing the rule book on all of these different things would help the sport in a big way and maybe reunite some of the different race organizations,who wants to race against themselfs or 1 or 2 other boats,I hope some how it all works out.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

If the classes form their own separate entities and regulated their own class rules then apply for membership to the sanctioning body, then the changing of the rule book would only be up to the class members.

If the members make the class un-marketable then the promoters will not race it and the members will have to react or not race.

AC

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

I dont see how racers making thier own class rules will ever really work; it has not worked in other forms of motorsports,why would it work in offshore?
The sanctioning body(there needs to be only one), should establish the class rules and enforce them through pre and post race technical inspections.The LLC made some mistakes, but thier hard stance on rules resulted in the most competitive racing in the history of the sport.I still dont think offshore powerboat racing should accept being a "club" sport; under the right format and promotion; it can be a viable semi-professional motorsport.It all starts with unification,APBA and SBI seem to be working well together, and hopefully OSS will come back in time too!There should be some meetings in Key West that hopefully will be the beginings of good things to come.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

The sanctioning bodys and Racers should hold a meeting in Key West . There should be 3-4 race`s for next year where all bodys race together. It should be done for the love of the sport.
Site`s like Key west, Sarasota , Orange Beach and North Carolina.

Mike

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Mike,
I agree with a meeting in Key West among the racers and sanctioning bodies, but how about ONE national circut next year with 8 races with all the boats!There are just not enough boats to support three seperate circuts.In an ideal world, the 2005 rule book and at least a proposed schedule would be released in Key West.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

AC, we tried really,really hard last year to save F1. The teams that were still racing went round and round on what each team wanted. We even tried to vote on a rep for the class and we couldn't even agree on that. Someone like B.Bull needs to step up and make the call NOW for next year. What teams are left don't really care what the decision is, JUST MAKE IT.
Q, I have no problem with the 496 package. My problem will be no parts or support from Merc.racing at the race site. And my guess is they might also help on some level with contingency money like they have in the past.

PS. Who is the man in charge of making such a decision in APBA on rules? And being that SBI will be running with APBA passably more in the future John C. should make the same changes as well.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

I'd love to see a meeting of the heads of each sanctioning body in Key West. The question is,,,who sets it up and chair's the meeting?

Lets remember, baby steps are a good thing. If APBA and SBI can continue on the path that they've started, maybe everyone else can just join in whenever they feel ready. Forcing for profit businesses to join forces is not easy as people's livelyhoods are at stake.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Randy, from what I know, John C and Bob Bull have been working on getting the rules, a little more in line with each other for the worlds. Amazingly enough the two Sanc. Bodies have worked very well together. Sure there are some bumps in the road we can only hope for the best. As far as the factory classes, I really have to believe that if you can get even 4 or 5 F1 boats to agree on a package SBI and APBA will right the rule. Correct me if I am wrong, but the 525 package although pricy, would be the one of choice, and I believe merc also has a program to take some of the sting out of the purchase with a payback for each race you run. I hope I am not butting in here because I dont own a F1 boat, but the recent unified races have been awsome. Never mind the boat count, it's just great to hang with and meet all the other teams. Many new friendships were started this season. If I can help you to try and get the class up and going I am here for you. Why not start with a list of all the F boats that are still out there, and maybe take one more shot at a meeting of all involved. As for the APBA returning to it's premier status, really boils down to the racers. If you support it, it will grow. If you ignore it what can we expect. Who knows what next year will bring. Hopefully everyone will show in Key West with an open mind, and move into 2005 with the sports best interest at heart. Smitty

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Mark, I believe he is reffering to the 1K per race mercury gives you for racing the 525 package

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

I invite all of you to call in on Tuesday and talk your ideas out, you have two hours to do it. Meetings do not have to wait until Key West. A lot of the work can be done now and Talkoffshore will provide the place for it to be in public and available for download to those that are not able to listen live. Ron has been on the last two shows............that is if we are still here in Tarpon Springs after this rain storm.

AC

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

This has been a big problem with racing for the last few seasons. If you look at where all the sanctioning bodies are with boat count right now, including the GLSCS we have lost all our F1 and F2 boat. THey accounted for 40% of our entries for four years. We have Formula as one of our Series sponsors they have lost all but one or two of their factory team. Scary to see what was drawn up as the entry level Pro class gone in 5 years. I agree with everyones input. AS a group we all need to sit down with the engine manufactures and put something on the table so we can all run by the same rules. I think Mercury is great but there are other engine manufactures out there like Volvo who's performance engine were built by Innovation in the past not sure now. think this would give the class some validity as Factory racing. Also only having one re-builder and service company is Not Acceptable. There needs to be at least one in every region. The accountability of cheating needs to be the responsibility of the racers and their service group. This is all an idea but it could work if everyone works together. Our group is willing to sit down with anyone in Key West to discuss the future of racing and what we can do to move forward.

Regards,

Andrew D. Bloom

GLSCS Chairman

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

I'm not really a Factory guy but run a few F1 races in a few different boats. I think it is a great starter class but I agree the 496 is a better motor slow the boats down. 70-75 would be a safe speed. The 496 is also much cheaper. I do believe in the 1-1-1 theory though it really makes sense. A guy doesn't want to go racing when he knows the competition has a big advantage. APBA really had a good thing going as late as early last year but for a number of reasons the focus was quickly lost. I was at the very first race of the LLC in San Diego a few years ago and the whole thing did seem like it was going to turn into something huge but even there people and promoters were left unhappy. It is very hard to pinpoint what it would take for BOAT RACING in general to blow up, it probably never will without there being able to charge fans and what not. You sure as hell don't see FOX or TNT paying millions for the TV rights. I know there are ALLOT of people out there trying to promote racing to the best of their ability, but allot of bridges have been blown to hell and it's awfully hard to go back and mend them. Luckily this is a sport of allot of wealth and I believe that there will always be people with enough heart and bank rolls to keep it going in some form. In a perfect world 2004 Key West WILL be the changing point and the powers that be will come to some type of resolution to make some compromises in 2005 to promote the betterment of the sport and not just one group. Sorry for rambling on but I am bored as hell at home all weekend due to Frances, not boating on Labor day really sucks.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

The original 'E' Class (for entry level )was based on the 502/415HP production based engine.The class was designed for the "weekend warrior" who wanted to race his pleasure boat; and since many performance pleasure boats were already out there with this motor, it seemed like a great idea.Speeds were in the low 70mph range.I think the class was up to 8 or 9 boats and growing when it was discontinued and merged into P-Class.I guess it all depends on what is the definition of "Factory" racing?

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Spec racing stinks. Most racing has gone this dirrection and I do not consider it racing. It used to be run what you brung now it is cookie stamp boats with no excitement, no innovation, no competition. That all equals no audience. Look at IRL there was not enough cars entered to have bump day.

If you want to bring things back to the "glory days of racing" open up the rules to small business.

pat W

Mark,
I like the American Superboat Series (ASS) :D
Your boat is running in P isn't it? You guys are running there because you want to build your own engines. Wouldn't you rather be racing the other f1 boats?

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

I believe everythingnyou guys are saying. When I was racing F-1 Tyler built our motor. We had just as much power LEGALLY as everyone else with a carb HP500. THen the 500efi came along. Now we were behind after spending $70k for a class legal package. The APBA said you carb guys can run the efi exhaust, great $2500.00 later we were competitive again, then weight rules, then "X" dimension rules, etc... This is all due to advances in technology in hull, power, drives, propellers, etc. You can't stop that you have to move forward with it. That is why "P" class is so popular now, you can race whatever you come with. If you put in a bigger motor you move up a class your choice. If factory class will ever work you have to put rules into effect and live with them for 3-5 years, at which point the newer technology can be implimented with the racers input. Rules changes kill spec. racing. If your gona make the investment you have to be able to justify that your investment will have time to mature. Also you can't let one manufacture rule over everything. How popular would NASCAR be if they only ran Ford Tuaras, not very interesting for me......


Andrew Bloom
GLSCS Chairman

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Gentlemen, thanks for all the replies,, here is way I posted this question, I would like to get into the sport of offshore racing,, but there is KNOW unity,, if a racing sport is to make it in the big picture their can only be ONE BIG SHOW,,I strongly do not believe that ESPN, SPEED CHANNEL ,or any tv time will ever be dedicated to the sport if there can't at least be a unified sanctioning body.If club racing is what you would rather do then that is great ,but boat racing could be the next NASCAR if it was handled as a from start to finish buisness not a weekend poker run{big plans bring BIG results}
I stated that I was willing to help in any part of this project.The name APBA is already in the publics mind to try and change now would be catastrophic
do you remember when Coke changed ? it was'nt received well,, people do not like change. I am ready to roll ,,so to speak and let's make plans not conversation.......KISS...... keep
it
simple
so everyone can can participate

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Off topic but, that whole "New Coke" thing was the greatest marketing ploy of the century. Everyone was demanding the Original Coke back. Where is New Coke today? See what I mean?

The ONE BIG SHOW better be something that the average NASCAR fan can follow with out needing to understand that 8 classes are all racing at the same time.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

There is some great input here. I wonder if the people at the top are reading any of this. The Great Lakes is in the house and listening,Thanks. I most likely wouldnt race F1 but have 2 boats sitting in my warehouse that you could put any motor package in. I dont care witch one it is!!!! Why does everyone think the 525 is so expensive conpared to the 496 HO?
525 with CMI headers after merc. discount= $16,000
496 ($10,000) and purchase CMI headers($3000)Race mounts($600)=$14,000

Now lets be real about which motor is much better!

Also the question on why merc.racing wont support the 496 is beacause they dont make that motor. Mother Merc manufactures the 496. If you could get Mother Merc. to sponsor the class then the 496 may be a better route.

Also running the bravo drive vs XR drive issue. Are you really saving any money after you keep blowing your standard bravo?

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Its cash $$$$$$$$ baby!!!!!! You needed to run in 8 races over the year in any organization. You can also buy the whole package with the drive and gimbal or ITS and get the $8,000 back. I thought it was a pretty sweet deal.
MD

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

AC. you and Martin could have a talk show on just Factory racing some week. Its a hot subject!
MD

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

I feel that the current offshore structure does not lend itself to the promoter (big or small) being able to run the classes that are promotable. Some would think that means just the big classes, I don't. Some promoters or clubs would like to run just certain classes.

If the classes were able to make their own rules then they would be responsible for the viability of the class and be responsible to marketing and making the deal with the promotors.

Serveral things have always happened in fractures, promoters want promotable classes, sanctioning bodies have dictated to the racers and racers want control of their own class rules. So make it so!

The sanctioning body should do just that, sanction classes, officials, standards, and promoters. The promoters should do just that, promote and put on races. And the racers should have control of their own spending via the rules. If their class is not raced because they cannot put on a show the promoters will not have to lose money on them.

Tuesday is the night, 9:00pm is the time and www.talkoffshore.com is the place.

It is a open subject night so any subject goes, it is public. The demand files are available for people to listen to anytime. The meetings in Key West are not public or recorded so many do not get to participate.

AC

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

F1 boats that have put up points this year:

Activator - 525
Lavey - 525
Velocity - 525
other Velocity - 525
Flashwave - 525
Motion - 500 carb
DCB - 525
Covey - 500 efi
BRE - 500 EFI

I'm not looking for any F1 rule changes. With stability in the rules, we may get others to invest in the class as DCB has done. The last thing we need is to run off what we have. The F1 boats run well with the 525 and Sportmaster setup. So do the F2's, SVL's, SV's and SCL's.

My suggestion is to open a discussion of a new class based on 496's if your really interested in running that power package. Like the beginning of the SVL class, there are boats out there that can be converted.

J

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Andy,
I agree that constant rule changes are destructive to the sport; however, I absolutely disagree that P-Class fixes anything. The P-Class format has done little for Offshore in general and has hurt the 2004 boat count in the GLSCS. I want to race but not under the the system the GLSCS is selling. Without change and a set of rules that are enforced, my choice is to run with preformance boats in events like the LEOPA fall poker run this coming weekend.
I really hope the GLSCS works on significant class restructing for 2005. The 14-16 GLSCS boat count supports a maximium of two classes. How can you get to a consistant 20-30 boats? Change!
What could be a positive change for all of OS? Bob Bull could give the APBA rights to the OSS teams and go back to being a racer. Maybe the new management team could find a challenging job for John and this sport would at least have unified leaderhip. One man can make a difference...change is hard.
Sprague

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Shane, Yes,yes and yes to all those sanctioning bodys.
MD

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

I still here bla bla bla not quite what i was expecting,, so I'll take my sponsorship money and go look elsewhere,, by the by it was a major sponsor worth five million for five years not to bad for a super cat team
BYE BYE!

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Mark I have worked with this sponsor for over one year, and had planned to start next season. But mention OSS or any other faction and they look at you with a blank face.. they barley knew of APBA but hell call it what you want dog$hit Inc. Anyone willing to put up one mill a year will want and rightfully so expect there product ON NATIONAL TV not some club racing circuit. So look at what APBA did for the sport,, it got TV time Speed Channel had a once a week show on Offshore Racing.
And racers think of this with the performance boat market in the $hitter they [ the manufactures of all powerboats] should jump at any opportunity to put a powerboat in the minds of a potential buyer,, if you don't think that a certain car lines sales don't pickup on Monday when that car wins on Sunday then keep banking the same way and call me from your bankruptcy attorneys office next year.
If it did not work ,,TV,, then FORD , CHEVY and DODGE wouldn't pour millions upon millions in the stockcar racing game.
Where are all the F1, F2, P class boats today now where are the super cat lites and super cats ??????????????
Mark I personally have spent over nine hundred thousand dollars into my program this year alone so I feel like the old saying {all dressed up and no where to go}

Get one set of rules , appoint a competent governing body and let's go racing you can't tell me that all the big cats ,F1 ,F2, are all poker run boats now,, I'll run in what ever you want to call it BUT it needs to be a CLASS ACT or remain dog$hit, pay your damn bills as you leave town don't lie to everyone, put on a show to the buying public after all make yourself accessible to the common folk so that they can relate to the sport,unlike other sports where they herd you around like sheep and keep you at a standoffish distance.

Guy's I really like boating,, and I feel that boat racing is a great way to get others interested in boating.
Here's a little test for you why do so many people like Cigarette boats? could it be there impeccable reputation for winning races? it sure is'nt that they are so affordable, people buy winners and winning products sell first and foremost.
I welcome any advise on this matter.
Marty

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

In my previous post I did not imply that OSS or any other racing organization was dog$hit .I simply was re furring to a name ; call it what ever even ,dog$hit ..
that the name is'nt the most important thing ,,but a unified body would, in my opinion help the sport.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

I thought the whole idea of factory racing is to see what boats are the best,which boats are the fastest,and which boats can endure the punishment of racing.If speeds are decreased so slower boats can compete then that seems to defeat the whole purpose.Maybe the thing to do is have some better perks like more prise money,better advertising,and better TV coverage.Something like that may attract more racers.Limiting speeds and changing rules every year only cost racers alot of time and money.

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

I went to 3 different races this year.

Port Huron - APBA
St Pete - OSS
Orange Beach - SBI\APBA

All three had excellent sites good fan turn out and what I saw good racing.
Getting them to all get together is going to be a big job. None of them want to concede power. There is a huge amount of ego out there.

For my business SBI is the only one allowing my products to race.

OSS and APBA are determined to keep my drives and transmissions from being allowed to compete head to head with my competition.

I have had several potential customers try to use my products and were turned down and persuaded to run stuff that is in the "spirit of the rules"

If the rules were opened up the Europeans (UIM) and several other boat racers would come over with money and TV. The races would be enormous and worth watching. 1996 was the last time that happened.

pat W

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Again, what I'm advancing is that any class be accepted that the entitiy is formed by the racers in that class and it is their responsiblity to keep it viable.

It would be their responsiblity to deal with the approved promoters with regards to pull money, prize money or entry fees. The promoters and the racers control their own racing and class rules.

The sanctioning body would only be responsible for sactioning of promoters, class entities, vendors, officials, series sponsors.

Tonight you can all talk it out........www.talkoffshore.com 9:00pm

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

Let's think progression not regression, Take Nascar for example seems to work real well,, big sponsors ,lots of TV time,,,lots of interest, the things that I hope we are after for the sport of OFFSHORE Racing..

Now look at the IRL or Champ car or what ever it is called this week you change you loose public interest.. It takes more money and more R&D to Field an IRL car than it does a Nextel Cup Car team with half the results. I'll put my best interest first when it comes to my boat. I am not going to haul it all over the nation just for $hits and giggles .

Everyone has great ideas, lets step forward .

ps Mark I pmed earlier this mourning

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

The sport needs a national circuit with less classes to improve the sport, we need to be forced into certain classes or we all will keep running what ever we feel is the perfect boat for the perfect class. I cannot run my corvette in a nascar race, but I could race it at the local track! I don't know the magic number of classes but two organizations with 21 classes and 53 boats is a train wreck in the eyes of the public.....it might be a show but its not racing in there eyes.I think there needs to be progression to race in the national circuit(ONE). Start racing in a organization with what ever class they are running fits your boat and budget. Then if you are dedicated and have any money left build a boat and race in a national class, right now there is not enough incentive for alot of x racers to get the boat out of the barn and to many racers running what ever they happen to own where ever and when ever they want...makes it hard on the promoters and impossible for the sport to truly grow. Without a national curcuit with limited classes there will not be national tv, big sponsors, shaving cream commercials or money for the racers. Apba did provide tv for awhile, but only televised certain classes as it should be, I did not like it at the time, but it is how it should be(similar size boats with equal power), it gave us incentive to build a boat to race in a class that would pay back some money and tv had coverage.....unfortunately 2004 left us back were we started. However on a positive note I hear of boats now getting dusted off and new ones being built that 2005 should be a better year. If you could get 50-60 boats in 5 classes that would be racing that everyone could follow on a national level and there is still plenty of regional racing for young, old and tired of traveling racers. John Kostelac

Re: APBA,,How can we bring it back???
 

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!! John you are on the right page of this book ..sometimes you can't beat common sense ,,Thank you for your post. What is the purpose of a national racing body ? not for the racer , he already knows what is going on , I was hoping to get more interest from a national fan base, thus the future of powerboat racing has a chance. Just my .02