To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

To All A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4 racers:

Several of the racers in these classes who have raced in GLSCS, APBA, and Superboat Int. have been discussing ways to generate a competitive class with turn-outs like the "old days".....or at least 10-15 in a class. Each of these classes currently suffer from several factors that are limiting turn-out:

A: conventional bottoms that were trumped by Super-V lights and F-1

F1: cost of staying current, difficulty of the "average joe" to compete with factory backed teams, carbs vs. efi vs. 525, etc. etc.

P-4: GPS/bracket racing that potentially pits single engine 24 footer against 35+ foot twins (disparity in rough), cats vs. V

Here's the prevailing idea... for the sake of explanation, call it Performance-Single V (P-SV):

1) single engine inboards 24-29 feet
2) recognize a top speed target of <85 mph (safety: most will be open cockpits)
3) boats to be documented for props, rev chip, gear ratio, weight, etc.
4) GPS used only for race-to-race data to adjust for parity (not disqualification )
5) A-class spec motors (conventional hulls), HP500-carb (step bottom), HP500 efi and other customs allowed with tech inspection/sea trial/parity adjustment as needed.

Of course I have not hit all the options that have been put on the table but you get the spirit of the idea. In short, we figure there are a lot of single engine boats sitting in storage because there are no good compelling options that are competitive, provide parity, and are reasonably affordable.

We would like to start pulling together those who might be interested in such a class, regardless of sanctioning body affiliation. Also, we'd be interested in suggestion that might make this fair and easy to manage, provide competitive parity, and lets newer technology run with some of the vintage boats such that on any given day there could be a different winner.

I'd be happy to accept your "off-line" thoughts and interests at:
[email protected]

Best Regards,
Mike McManus
A-4 Bounty Hunter/Mt. Dew
bountyhunteroffshore.com

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

Seems that the new F1 APBA & New F1 SBI rules cover most of the boats that fit that scenario? except the speed target. Lower equipment costs Merc 496 HO or Equvalent, factory stock boats v 24 - 30 feet, 4500# min weight. This should create the parity you're looking for.

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

I think ONE open cockpit twin engine vee bottom class and ONE open cockpit single engine vee bottom class makes alot of sense from a racers' and fans' perspective.Coming up with an enforceable set of tech rules based on parity,affordability and safety is the challenge.If there is a way to consolidate(P2,P3 & F2) into a class, and( P4,A,P5 & F1) into a class, it should be considered.

The classes could be called VEE for the twins, and VEE LIGHT for the singles.....numbers only,no letter designations.

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

Mike,
I like the idea of combining classes to improve racing. Your idea is a step in the right direction although maybe too late for 2005.
If you think of how many race boats there are currently in the USA, whether they be actively racing or sitting in the barns, the number of classes lends itself to a small number of boats in each class. The problem has always been that a class was developed to accommodate anyone and everyone who wanted to race their craft. The formula really doesn't work. Instead of creating classes for boats, the sanctioning bodies should have the foresight to create a limited number of classes and to have individuals build boats to fit those classes.
There is no reason that a 42' Fountain with diesel engines, racing in P-3 should be racing against a 27' Activator with a blower motor, in P-3. It doesn't make sense or for good racing.
I see no more than 7 classes of racing in Offshore and even that could be more than necessary.
Russ

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

I think the the new F1/ F2 Classes for 2005 being so affordable you will see alot of the P class guys stepping up into F Class the next few years. It will be the same price to build a P class boat as a new F1, and race the Pro Series, and the most important thing is reliability.

Frank
"koolhand'

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

What 496 engine? how mush is the engine package for F1?

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

The 496 HO package complete with drive and Gimbel is about 18-20 thousand. Not sure on engine price alone 10-12 thousand??? Most of the F1 boat that are out there now will just have to drop a motor in.

Frank
"koolhand"

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

Frank,

Is the Motor from Mercury or from CRE???? Do you have any pics of it???

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

i think that a single engine, 32 foot max, 80mph, P-4 would be great for the sport.

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

http://www.mercurymarine.com/8.1s_hi...ho_ib_-_420_hp

Dennis,

Here is the link to Merc site with 496 pictured and the specs on the motor. I am pretty sure that APBA will go thru Innovation to seal the motors and I havent heard anything about SBI's choice yet.


Trent

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

I agree with Bruce.

P4 max80mph/32ft single i/o twin ob
P5 max70mph/28ft single i/o twin ob

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

Bruce, I'm not sure I understand your comment:

Are you suggesting P4 be limited to 32' max and singles? Kinda puts my 33' with twins out of the game. Please enlighten me on your thoughts.

I like the idea of two open cockpit classes; Open Vee (twin) and Open Vee Light (single). Sort of a throwback to Offshore-A and Offshore-B days. Parity can be accomplished, and many have already made good suggestions

Much of the P-Class boat fleet could fit into these classes, other than those running cats. P-2 and above has had very little representation over the past couple of years with Vee bottoms, so there's just the cats left to place in a class.

These classes would make great Saturday racing: OVL's and Cat Lites run together first, and OV's and Bigger cats (Super Stock?) run second. If Bacardi, Callan, and Pair-A-Dice need a place to run, they could fit in somewhere. They rarely run the same venues anyway, so there's typically only 1 or 2 PX boats at a given race site.

Then Sunday, SCL and SVL run first, SC and SV run the final show.

Sure would make it easier for the fans and sponsors to follow.

My $.02
Brian

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

At the Worlds this year, SBI placed 32' singles in P5, 69.9mph avg speed (75-76mph speeds in the straightaways).

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

Brian...

I would like to see P-4 as a single IO /Twin OB engine class 30- 32 ft max. And all the classes above that, would move up a notch. This would allow many of the faster single engine P-5s to move up and give the slower, smaller boats a chance in P-5.

Example:
P-3 80mph max Twins or (just have P-4 single and P-4 twin)
P-2 90mph max
P-1 100mph max

I dont think it would happen because it would mean adding an additional class. Somewhere

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

Just go back to A and B class with similar motor restrictions.......

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

How bout , if we call them A and B class but still use the max speed of 80 and 90 repectively. we dont have to go through building spec motors and teardowns on sunday afternoon? Something along those lines

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

Bruce,
I agree with you...and with the GLSCS offering PX in 2005, it can be done.


PX
P1 max 100mph
P2 max 90mph
P3 max 80mph twin i/o vees
P4 max 80mph/32ft single i/o twin o/b vees
P5 max 70mph/28ft single i/o twin o/b vees

I think this class format will help create more parity particularly in P3,P4 & P5...and that is where the majority of the current boats are; and the most potential for new boats as well.It has been proven that grouping single engine boats and twin engine boats in the same classes really does not work.

I agree with changing class desiginations back to the single letter format as well(A,B,C etc..) and renaming 'P' ....Sportsman to fall in line other motorsports.

HAPPY NEW YEAR.

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

In your example, these classes are moving DOWN a notch. P3 is currently a 90mph max class, so is your suggestion to slow down the classes in general? I don't disagree with that, at least in open cockpit boats. I think a good target for singles is 80, 85 for twins.

Adding more classes is only going to divide the fleet further, and I think we need to go in the other direction - less classes, more boats per class. That's why I'm suggesting consolidating P-classes into OV and OVL, so all the singles (F1, A, smaller P4, P5) run together, and twins (F2, retired B's, and P4, P3) run together. We can make these two classes real competitive, with large boat counts, and have it easier to follow for those paying to watch us race (fans, sponsors).

These are big changes, and I don't expect anything to happen soon, certainly not for next season.

Cheers,
Brian

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

Brian,

I like what you are saying. However that that would leave many smaller, slower P-5s on the trailer.

What I was actually saying in my post, was to bump up the bigger faster P-5 Single Vs (and twins under 28 feet), to P-4 max 80 mph. And then move all your existing P-4s up to P-3 with a 80 mph max, P-3s up to P-2 with 90 mph max, P-2s up to P-1 with 100 mph max and P-X over 100mph.

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

Brian,
I also agree with you about Open Vee and Open Vee Light....it just does not seem like there is enough of a push to make it happen.As Bruce said, I dont think that the sanctioning
bodies have the desire to develop, implement and enforce a complex set of technical rules to address the multitude of hull and engine configurations that are currently racing in the P-Classes.I guess the bracket format is here to stay.

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

That's an easy problem to solve. Make A and B classes "bracket" classes. OVL runs a GPS, and has a top speed of "X" (80?). Similar with OV, top speed of "Y" (85? 90?). Tech inspections are a simple matter of safety items, and GPS installation. Just like current P-class inspections.

Some folks don't like being governed by a GPS, and that's where an elaborate tech process is necessary. An eloborate tech process also allows for "creative interpretation" of rules, protests, appeals, and good-ole-boy syndrome to set in. These issues are like parasites that suck the blood from our sport. GPS may not be perfect, but it's fair (all race teams face the same inaccuracies), and most of all, it's a CHEAP way to level classes. This might allow the sanctioning bodies to chase after bigger, better race sites and sponsors, and not have to deal with the bickering between race teams.

Back to Basics... just throwing ideas out there.

Brian

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

I hear ya, Bruce, but change will inevitably place someone "on the trailer".

Your example above puts P4 and P3 both at 80mph max. So if I change my numbers (and OSO handle, and uniforms, and email address, business cards, yada yada) to P3-33 (chit, that one's taken), you and I will still be running neck and neck. :drink:

Brian

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

I agree, we cant make everyone happy. And some boats may be left on the trailers. However, others may come on board to replace them.

I would like nothing more than to beef up my power to run 80 plus. I Have no problem with that. As long as I was running against boats of similar size and power.

I dont know if we were ever running neck and neck in the past. But rest assured, we would be, if the rules were changed :D I look forward to it.

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

Yup, that's the idea.

If we're running with a top speed, power doesn't mean as much as size. If a boat is capable of doing the max for it's class, then the smaller ones have advantage on flat stuff, and larger ones have it in the rough. I do agree there is a disparity between singles and twins. Twins bite harder after a launch, and accellerate faster out of the turns. This is why I'm suggesting a separation between the two.

My point is, there are so many different sizes of boats out there that teams want to race, and to group them by length only divides the classes further. It's a team's choice whether they want their advantage to be in the rough or on flat water. Top speed is just that, top speed. Exceed it and you're done for the day.

I don't think I've had the pleasure of running with you on the race course. Maybe we'll get that chance sometime soon.

Cheers,
Brian

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

I look forward to it

Happy New Year :drink:

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

Guys

Benperfected(sprague) has been suggesting somthing very similar as far as old a and b classes, use prop pitch gear and max rpm with limiter. What I want to add to it is a competition director for each class. That person is responsible for making the racing close. Add some rpm to some take away a little from others, to make the racing competitive. You will have to find someone with integrity and all the racers in the class trust.

Mike Sadlon

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

Build boats for classes not classes for boats.
In other words, cut the class count in half.
OPA= 6 classes
OSS= 4 classes
SBI and APBA= too many classes

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

Amen

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

A and B classes have died a similar death to what is happening with F1 and F2. Too many restrictions, and a difficult tech process. Even with set rules, much "creative interpretation" still happens.

That's the beauty of P-classes, the rules (and tech inspection) are simple. Go too fast and you get DQ'd. How much more parity do you need? Consolidating P-classes into single and twin classes would make for a LARGE competitive field.

Cheers,
Brian

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

I think you could bring back A & B class with the existing boats that are out there. A could be single engine V's and B could be twin engine V's all open cockpit. With all the canopied classes having Mercury or GM motor packages for its Super V classes and Cat Lite classes.

Here is an idea.
SuperCat = Canopied twin Merc 525 or Vortec powered **
SuperCat Outboard = Canopied twin Mercury Outboard, existing Stock class boats
Super V = Canopied twin Merc 525 or Vortec powered V bottoms **
Pro V = Canopied single Merc525 or Vortec powered V bottoms **
V Twin = Open cockpit twin engine V bottom
V Single = Open cockpit single engine V bottom

**= mandatory dry exhaust for these classes!!!!!!!

The V Twin & Single classes can easily compromise 75-80% of the P-class boats that are out there. These classes are motors built or bought from other vendors then the spec class suppliers. The spec class suppliers could still participate in these classes as well as long as there engine meets the spec of these classes. I think this could bring back A & B classes and combine them with F1 & F2 without having two more additional classes.

With the money that most P class racers have spent over the years they could have been racing a Super Series boat. If for some reason a class has no participation or light participation for two years the sanctioning body has the right to drop this class as long as the participants all have been well informed of this upcoming action.

Some may say why I think Supercat today should be dropped is very simple. The guys that spend the $$s in that class can afford to run the 525/vortec and by doing this it makes it more competitive and not a who has the most $$$s to spend scenario.

Just an an idea with a little opinion added and would like to see some constructive criticism on this topic.

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

They should bring back B class[sport] and A class.It was popular for many years.It proved who made the most power,who had the best boat, and who could run their boat.It was an engine builders class. thats what made it so competitive.Not this Mercury BULL**** everyone has to have.The sport is ruined.Just my opinion.ignore it if you want.

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

So what are your ideas on "spec motors"? I assume you're looking at something like 510ci, X-compression, X-venturi size, what else? What happens to those teams running an EFI package, like F1 & F2?

As a P-class racer, I've never had to deal with spec motors. Is the current A-class spec a good start? Just curious.

Brian

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

So if I read all of this correctly the only classes being discussed are for OPEN cockpit boats?

If that is the case, I could care less.....

I like the first proposal, get all the single engine boats out there and let them run! Give them a hp to weight rule and go at it! If you are 350 hp you can weight less than 3500 but more than 3250, etc...

Then let them race........

Rick

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

A and B motors were 510 ci with 9.5 to 1 comp, steel heads etc.I am saying let any engine builder build the motors like before.Alot of engine builders suffered when this monopoly of Mercury motors only took effect.And it made the sport boring to watch.A class was always a good entry level class and it was affordable.You could build a competitive 510 motor for the same or less than the mercury package.And it didnt have to go to Innovation for everything.

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

JC,
Was the rule 510 or up to 510?

I am curious as a 410 c.i. SBC outfitted as you state in my little toy would be awesome.

Rick

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

Why steel heads? Port size can be played with on either type, but aluminum heads are more forgiving with higher burn temps. I use them for reliability sake, as well as the ability to fix them if something goes askew.

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

Up to 510 for big blocks and 375 for small blocks.Sorry

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

Thats what the rules used to be.They allowed the Merlin head.It kept things on a level playing field.

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

So the 377 Scorpion was not legal? That would suck.

Re: To Combined A-class, F-1, and single engine P-4?
 

Rick, I understand where you're coming from... Bat boats need a place to run, and lately the only place the sanctioning bodies have supported them in is P-class. It's unfortunate, because when Chris's fleet was hopping a couple of years ago, the fans LOVED to see 6-8 of them battling it out.

My problem (not with Bats, but with canopies in general) is that once a racer has a lid over his head and is strapped in with air at his side, his ballz grow as big as grapefruits. This is a good thing (for him). It's also a bad thing for those of us with our heads bobbing in the wind trying to keep up.

Last year, there were a couple of SVL boats (ok, one) that ran P4 on Saturday, and SVL on Sunday. If he chose his prop right, there was no comparison how he got through the turns, wide open all the way around. We tend to take a different line when there aren't seatbelts involved.

I hope for you and the rest of the Bat boat fleet that things change for the better for you guys.

Brian