What happened???
 

Does anyone have any facts or info? Spin,chine walk, in a turn? I plan on racing mine this weekend and the following and any info would help me sleep at night. This sucks.
RIP
Pm me if you want.
Randy

I dont think that anyone really has much concrete info on it so far Randy. With that said, I have my own opinion on it that may or may not turn out to be correct.

I highly doubt that chine walk was the issue, as the driver, Frank, said that they were only running between 70-80mph. Don had that boat up over 110mph on more than a few occassions, and always said that it was rock solid. I have had mine, with virtually the same setup, albeit much less power, over 100 on a few occassions and it was rock solid. It is so solid that my girlfriend drove it 98mph with no issues, and she had never driven a boat before the previous day. I can safely drive my boat between 70 and 80mph all day and cant trim it out to the point that it gets loose or scary, it just wont do it.

Frank also said in the sherrifs report that the boat started wobbling uncontrollably, and hooked before he could pull out of it. That sounds to me like a mechanical problem with the steering, or even pitching off a prop or throwing a couple blades (however this is not likely, as i have thrown a blade on mine at over 90mph and all it did was start vibrating badly). I know that Don had an ITS box on the boat, as do i, and as did the Disturbed boat. The interesting thing is that on the Dristurbed boat, according to the accounts that I have heard, the ITS assembly broke, causing the boat to hook, ejecting both people in the boat and killing the passenger. Sounds familiar. Now as I said, the info about the ITS failing came from the owner of the boat. http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/k...ng-system.html

I dont know any specifics regarding what that boat was doing at the time of the failure, ie turning, running hard, cruising, etc. All I know is in both cases, the boat became uncontrollable and ejected both people onboard, and killed the passenger on both boats.

I understand your concern Randy, however you have more seat time in the Kryptonite than probably anyone else on this board. People die in boats from time to time, sometimes it is operator error, sometimes it is mechanical failure. I am going through the same problems right now with my girlfriend, who knew about Don's project, and after finding out about his death, is worried about our boats safety. Looks like life vests will be worn from now on, that is for sure.

Good luck this weekend Randy, I will most likely be stopping down in AC to watch the races and walk the pits, I will stop by if I see you and introduce myself.
Phil

I highly doubt that 34disturbed wants to rehash his experience but I do think he would have some valuable insight if mechanical failure was involved in this accident also. I do find it interesting that both boats were equipped with ITS. And it seems from the accounts of both drivers from both accidents that both boats acted or reacted in similar fashion.

I was out running this Saturday also in the leftover wake of Earl. The wind was blowing nice and the river and bay had some nice 3-4 footers. We were running pretty hard and I can remember thinking to myself this boat is eating this up...it was a awesome ride. We stopped at one point and my wife looked over at me and said this is by far the best boat we've had yet. I just looked over....smiled...and hammered down for some more. Sunday I wake up still pumped about the ride and read about Don's accident. I was floored. After reading everything I couldn't help to think it was mechanical failure...but what exactly failed? Hopefully we are able to learn what caused this accident.

I hope nobody takes us speaking of this tragic event as being done in bad taste. The last thing I would want to do is offend Don's family during this time.

I heard about this from JDub over the weekend. Our prayers go out to Dons family and friends.

I'm in agreement with everyone else here. Most probably a mechanical faliar with the ITS setup. I've been talking to don the entire week about maybe purchasing his ilmor. I spoke to him late last week. Really wierd to think someone you spoke to less than 24hrs ago has passed.

Either way Randy, you're probably the most knowledgeable and experienced racer when it comes to kryptonites. This is like JT being scared of a cat!

Let's find out what happened first before we speculate too much. I had mine for 5 years, it had the Imco box with the integrated steering and I never had a problem with it. It is possible there was a catastrophic failure that caused the boat to hook (that much power could make an Xr do funny things), it is possible that they caught a wave wrong (in a true fluke type incident), or it is possible there was driver error (even for a split second). Right now no one knows exactly what happened and guessing isn't going to help.

I hope its not in bad taste talking about what happened. I would think it would be apreaciated that we were talking. Maybe it could help someone else that owns the same boat. At those speeds we should all be wearing life vest. I know it is a pain in the ass and may not have saved him but lets all keep safty in our minds with our boats. I learned the hard way when I rolled a boat testing. I didnt have my belts on or my helmet or jacket. I was just testing in the calm river I thought. Well I almost lost my eye and have the scares on my face to prove what a idiot I was. I posted on the internet what I did and showed a pic of my face. The moral of the story is I have had several people confess to me that they also never used to strap in or wear there gear testing but after reading my post they always do now. So if any one has any info on how there Krypto reacts I am all ears. The only thing worse than one person gone is two for the same reason.
Randy

I hear ya Randy. The only way we can learn from these accidents is to talk about them and share our experiences. It's just a shame that it takes something like this to happen before people start talking.

Like I mentioned before I was in some snotty water this weekend and not once did the boat seem unpredictable. It was very stable and tracted straight and level. But stuff happens regardless of water conditions...hopefully the cause will be found so we can all draw some good from this bad situation.

hey guys its very early to speculate anything that happened on Dons boat but i can say this.... Its not easy living everyday knowing that my bestfriend was killed in my boat due to an uncontrolable incident! its easy for anyone to read about a situation like this in the boats we own and say "oh that had to be driver error" but know this at 70-80 mph which was about the speeds we were at during my accident, that these boats are comfortable in their performance per say and unless a wave inadvertantly catches the driver off guard or something drastic happens to him or her not a situation like this would happen. unless hthey had no control over the boat! its interesting to me that the driver of Dons boat stated he felt a shake or wabble in the wheel. This same uncontrollable action happened to my boat and the steering got stiff and in a matter of seconds, i mean a second or two the boat veered and hooked right!! now i had my boat in the best of condition mechanically with no dollars spared and the ITS system failed! the boat came out of impound with a report of mechanical failure with the right steering ram completely fracturing at the clevis. the initial veer and pull before hooking was my hydraulic lines finishing the circuit and emptying out, once it did i had no control whatsoever my right ram was empty. i know these systems have performed well on big boats with large power but is it possible putting an extra 16-18 inches setback on the back of a 23• v deadrise 27ft boat with a high x and a short lower (mine was 2inches) isnt reliable with these units over time with any serious power? this is all my opinion about why this may have happened to me and possibly to Dons boat also, mercury didnt have any acceptable answers. my situation was mechanical and it still isnt any easier to talk about but i want people to know and lookout now that like jdub said its happened again!! i had my boat for 6 yrs and had experienced high speeds,roughwater, all that stuff but all that cant prepare u for a mechanical steering failure at any speed! u feel totally incompetant and useless because at that point u r! i wish Dons family the best during this terrible time in their lives and hope people dont just view this as driver error this was to close to home in every way.

Thanks for sharing bro....that's gotta be tough to talk about, but your experience may help others.

Being the setup guy that he was, I think hed dig hearing how other boats react.

Rip buddy :(

I had been following the build thread from time to time. Don seemed to me like such a good guy who really enjoyed this sport.

I think he would have showed people what happened to his boat in the accident had he been around now, so that others could learn from it.

Most of us Gearheads are like that. He was a brother to all of us in the performance boating hobby, although I never knew him at all.

He has my respect for chasing his dream. He also will have my prayers as will his family.
He was very personable online and I felt like I knew him from readiing his posts. I noticed many of you have posted about the ITS and although I dont want to speculate on anything, I did want to post this excerpt from the build thread for you guys.

(There was a small oil leak which was dealt with. And the ITS needs to be bleed, you have to turn is slowly to the left to keep it straight. So they only did one short blast to 5600 or so)

I thought it might be important info to you guys.
God Bless

im sure many would argue though and say no way!my system is tight and ive never experienced anything like that on my 27 or 29', to few instances! and dont think its a worry. honestly not many people really asked to know in depth before now what happened.im sure it wasnt to be ignorant or rude but maybe out of respect and whatnot figured it was better off left alone! well thats how ive always felt about speaking on the forum about something like this, u feel like an outsider looking in for the same reasons of rumors and junk like that! my heart goes out to the driver ofDons boat who was probably a great friend and will have a tuff time ahead dealing with the situation.

what type of conversion kit is available to hook an imco upper to the Its? are the rams merc or imco? thats what don had if im not mistaken.

I think he went with the Imco SCX upper which required a helmet change. The rams remained merc......

Thank you all for contributing as well. Don was my friend, I never got the chance to meet him in person but I spent hours on the phone with him and we exchanged hundreds of emails about his project, my boat, and pretty much everyone elses boats as well. He would certainly be engaged in this discussion if it had been one of us.

I dislike that we even have to discuss it at all, because that only means that someone paid the price, in this case it was Don. Perhaps this discussion should have been started previously, asking people their honest, no bull**** assessments about the handling of their boats, not just relying on what are usually biased opinions based on brand loyalty. We are all guilty of it.

Now, I have an ITS box as well, and have never had any issues with it. the steering is tight and has never worked less than perfect. The only time I ever had a steering issue at all was when i threw a power steering belt. I have been in some seriously snotty conditions with my boat, the worst being when i was terribly inexperienced for them, during the OPA race in Ocean City of 2009, when i took the boat down the coast from Indian River, DE in true 3-5' seas. Even then, the boat never did anything unexpected, and we were running a solid 50+mph the whole trip.

At this time, I do not believe it to be driver error, the situation just sounds too unusual for this to be plausible in my mind. Of course, this is just my opinion and the truth could come out a completely different way. I am not giving the driver the benefit of the doubt, I am giving the boat the benefit of the doubt. They just dont react like that at those speeds, based on my experience.

Hopefully we will get a definite answer to these questions. I know that my gf and I, as well as passengers on my boat, will wear lifejackets from now on. It may not have saved his life, but it just might have helped.

I've never felt anything "unusual" in the kryptonite unless I forcefully tried to do something, such as extreme negative trim on a turn. The boat has always been predictable and rock solid at any speed I've taken it to. But, as with any single step small v-bottom, you have to be careful! Aggressive step + light boat + pad + windy will never be ideal conditions to make a speed run. Sometimes if it's real windy out and hitting directly on the port side of the boat, I'll have to counterbalance my starboard side tab down to 5 or 6.

Either way, Don had that boat up to 116? or some crazy number. I can't imagine the boat hooking by driver failure at 80??? Like you phil, I've had many people take my boat up to 80 without issue. Damn, even my 15year old cousin, who's a girl mind you, drove 82. It sounds like the ITS, but im sure we'll have a definitive answer soon.

Just a thought: There is an unrelated thread in the GD about a guy who had his 0-ring blow out on his sea strainer due to too much water pressure. It sprayed water all over the belt(s) and adversely affected the steering causing a rapid turn.

My Kryptonite was the same way but it was a driver's boat above 80mph. It almost bit me once trying to get a top speed mph or two out of it with aggressive trim, it made it real squirrely. The boat skipped off a boat wake and chine walked so bad, my friend running next to me saw the whole bottom of my boat! I can only imagine what one is like at 100+. I saw a best of 86 with my set up.
My boat ran the best with the tabs just touching the water and the drive trimmed out slightly. When turning I always tried to slow first if needed, bring the tabs up if I was dragging them in a following sea, and then turn leaving the drive trimmed (never slowing once I started turning). I actually would accelerate slightly through the turn to make sure the stern stays planted.

The boat came back from authorities on Thursday. They did find a broken powersteering pump belt laying in the bilge. It has been suggested that this may have played a part........1200h.p, Torque steer, 5 blade,....etc.etc. The guy who brought the boat to rest said the steering was real tuff. I checked all the hydro rams and they all look fine. I was actually expecting the boat to look pretty beat up. To my surprise the boat doesn't even have a mark on it.
__________________
SENECA POWER BOAT ASSOCIATION

From the GD section.

Good info Tom. I find it entirely possible that when running at 80mph, throwing a power steering belt could make it impossible for a driver to correct to changing sea conditions fast enough to prevent an incident. I threw one and didnt have any adverse effects, other then losing power steering of course, but can see what could happen if i had been running faster. Anyone who has driven a hydraulic steering boat with no pressure on teh system can vouch for the fact that it is hard enough to steer a straight line, let alone correct for anything unexpected.

how do these systems work? I only know about outboard systems where there is no power. how do these differ without the power steering part, as compared to what i know that is used on an outboard boat?

If tossing a belt is that critical in a hyd. steering boat, why not run a dual belt setup?

The outboard systems use a Capilano style helm in which the helm unit also acts as the pump. The Char-lynn style helm, which most of us use, requires the use of a pump assist. That's why we need the power steering pump on our motors. Throwing a belt off the power steering pump makes it hard to turn the wheel but not impossible. Depending on conditions and speed I could see where it could cause a problem for the driver.

I have been following this tragedy since it happened but havent posted my thoughts. First off, I would like to extend my condolences to Dons friends and family. I have never talked to Don directly, but it seems it was my loss for not having the opportunity to do so.
My thoughts on the loss of control issues are just my thoughts and opinions. I have never experienced a loss of power assist to my steering system and I hope it stays that way. My boat runs no where near as fast as did his. However, I believe that a tossed belt causing loss of power assist is not enough of a problem to cause a loss of control. Yes, it will make the wheel hard to turn, but why would it cause a loss of control? It will most definately could be a contributing factor. For example... if the boat launched off a wave and needed some steering input to correct its course, the wheel would feel hard to turn, but still would turn. That may surprise a driver, causing him to over correct? Not sure. I understand that boat was rigged with a -3 Imco SC lower and a 5 blade prop. At 70 to 80 mph, where this accident occured, is there enough torque going through the engine and drive to cause a loss of control, just becasue of loss of power assist? Seconds before the accident, Frank remembered the wheel shaking, then loss of control. Would a tossed belt cause this shaking? If so, then we all need to evaluate our steering systems for some sort of back up system, in case we toss a belt at speed. I wonder what the manufacturers of hydraulic steering systems have to say about this. Have they ever tested for this scenario before?
Lastly, I honestly am not trying to be critical of anything or anybody here. I am just trying to help figure out what may have happened, to help us all out in the future.

:eek:damn john. I thought you were all muscle, no brain:lolhit:. Guess not:party-smiley-004:.

Its hard to beleive that a thrown belt is all that could be wrong with the boat with this outcome, but I guess it teaches us all a lesson that we are more fragile than we think at times.

There was a post where Don was refering to something else entirely in the build thread and he said something like Well I guess if your times up your times up and my time was up.

It had nothing to do with anything like this, it was about some leak or something that made the engines have to be pulled I honestly cant remember.

I would like to add that having run some race cars with Gen 7 DFI fuel injection and turbos/blowers. I know that you can sometimes get a rich condition that will blow out the spark in the engine for a moment and then the fire will come back. It usually depends on what Injectors, plug and gap combo your running.

That momentary lapse of power in a high HP application can make the car lurch.

I wonder if they were datalogging thier files durring the run??

Is anyone familiar with Gen 7 DFI that is looking over the boat this could be a good place to look for more info on the cause.


The datalog can tell you allot about how the engine was running at the time.

This may hold some info for the family Heres an Excerpt from the build thread:
(cant wait for accel any more. I may run it in closed loop and data log, then every run I can make adjustments to the cells to get them closer to the AF mix I want.)

Maybe it will help them to know all the answers they can about what happened.

The comments about the power steering system are true, with the exception that it could be possible to over correct for something if you didnt have power steering. Like I said before, I have had to run my boat with no power steering for 20+ miles, and it is hard enough to turn the wheel at all, let alone correct for cross wakes while running at speed. It is seriously like trying to turn the wheel of an old manual steering car while it is stopped. My arms were shot by the end of that ride, just from fighting with the wheel. I would NEVER have been able to correct for something abnormal, you just cant turn the wheel fast enough to do it. Even you Jdub, meathead that you are.

I see it as a good possibility that this could be a contributing factor to the crash, in conjunction with high speeds and possible cross wakes. Running fast, lose power steering, hit cross wakes at the same time. The boat will start to wobble/chine walk badly, and with no power steering you just cannot respond to it fast enough. 99 times out of a 100 you might get away with it just by chopping the throttle.

I’ve been in shock for the week over this tragedy, so I have also reserved my comments. I want to express my condolences to the family. I learned he had a son about 9 years old and that hits very close. My son is 7 and I feel terrible for his son. I met Don only briefly at Performance Marine a few weeks ago, and we shared the very same passion for speed.

My engine was also built at Performance Marine. 26’ Checkmate with about the same HP and runs over 110mph. I have lost power steering on three occasions, but never over 80mph. It was always a belt failure. It makes the boat very hard to steer, but should not cause an accident like this unless it was at higher speed or he was correcting in rough water at the moment it failed. I would hazard a guess that’s exactly what happened. He was most likely driving one hand on the wheel and one on the throttle as is almost required with these boats. The belt broke at a critical time, and he lost the wheel. As he tried to hang on the throttle came back still in gear.

I’ve been known to drive with no vest, helmet or lanyard at over 100mph. That will not happen again. Rest In Peace Don, hopefully we can all learn from this and save some lives, possibly my own.

why can a system like what is used on outboards not be used for i/o's? seems like power steering belts do break at times? the outboard cats I have driven have been very hard to turn in comparison to Don's boat for instance or other power steering boats I have driven. so just wondering why that can not be use, just not strong enough?

It can be used, but not sure about high speeds, may not be strong enough, plus it is not exactly easy to steer either, it is easier than a Power hydraulic without power, but nowhere near as easy as a power unit working properly.

Like rchevelle said they can be used but the power assisted hydraulic steering is alot easier and smoother. The old Hynautic steering with the pressurized can was also a good system, many older performance boats still run them. The Hynautic helms are strong and durable and when coupled with new Latham, Imco, Zeiger etc. rams would make a great steering system. They just won't be as easy to turn at slower speeds and docking.

The suggestion of a dual belt system sounds like a good solution.

Or how about a power steering pump that mounts directly to the end of the crank or pulley so you could do away with the belt. It could be counterbalanced so that once the shaft inside is spinning the body (or can/resevoir) that is full of fluid would remain stationary like it is floating. You could then plumb your steering lines like you would normally do. Something like hubodometers on highway trailers http://www.vr-hubodometer.com/hubo/7777Features.htm

I am familiar with the hynautic and it takes more effort but is not that awful bad I figured it doesn't take a lot more force than it does to turn a single very high outboard in a true cat. Also the hynautic system works fine for a 21 skater with a single 280 or 300 and there's enough force on things the boats are known for braking skegs on sportmasters and cle's don't last long at all. I got used to these steering systems so if someone got used to power steering I could see where they would not want to run a hynautic system. You can also add full power to these systems in a self contained unit through latham. Not sure how strong it is though

John,
I dont agree with that dual belt idea as being a good solution. If one belt starts flapping around, it most likely will take the other belt with it. I would suggest a serpentine belt system would be more reliable than 'V' belts.

Everybody always says that about V belts. But I can't ever recall losing a belt and have it take out the other ones. Serpentine belts?...I don't know.... I'd rather know that if I lost my power steering belt my fuel pump would still work because it's on a seperate belt. But I guess I'm old school because I have a mechanical fuel pump instead of electric :D

Everybody is right. 2 of the 3 times I lost a power steering belt it took out the alternator belt as well. It seems to be linked to rpm. Once I started turning 6000+rpm, the v belts started to come apart or twisting and failing. The shaking in the wheel he described could have been a twisting slipping v belt that was about to let go. I'm seriously considering a serpentine belt setup as a winter project.

On My drag car with a turbocharger I use V belts. I even run one off the alternater to the vacuum pump and occasionally it will throw that belt. Maybe 6 or 8 times a season, it has never once cleared another belt off the pulleys.

Obviously everybody is not right as 30ctsutphen and myself has demostrated. Of the 2 times you lost both your power steering belt and alt belt your were still able to run your boat out of harms way correct? If you lost that serpentine belt you wouldn't of had that option. Serpentine belts break also and when they do you have power to nothing. I like serpentine belts don't get me wrong, in say a car. But I like my odds on the water of losing 3 belts at once compared to losing one. I just don't think the serpentine belt is the best solution in this situation.

I have lost a power steering belt and it did not effect any other belts. I have to agree with John about this one. I could lose both the power steering and the alt belt and could still run long enough to get back to the dock. With a serpentine belt, if i lost that i would lose my water pump as well, and we all know what happens if you try to run for long periods of time without that.

First let’s stop comparing street engines to marine engines. Marine engines run at high rpm, full load for hours on end. Second, unless you have a marine engine that turns 6000+rpms as both mine and this boat do there is no comparison. Third I have never seen a serpentine belt blow that was in good shape, but I have had several brand new v belts blow on my boat. Once again it’s the rpms. Look at all of mercury’s HP engines, they all have serpentine belts.

You have to have this type of engine to compare. I do not need my raw water pump to keep going. I can lose every belt and get home without damage as long as my batteries don’t run too low. The steering would be hard, but functional and my transom water pick up supplies more water than I need even without a pump. Even without a blower belt I still make 600HP and that will push my hull plenty fast. Just like Don’s setup.