Heat projects for the down season
 

Hi Guys,
A couple of us are working on our Heats this winter, and I thought you might like to see what we're up to.
Butch Fletcher has a '96 pad vee Heat. His motor was getting really tired, and he is having it completely rebuilt. Getting very close to reinstalling a B&M 250 supercharged Gen4 496" with
a Crane 741 hydraulic roller. I think his static compression is around 8.5. I think it will be in the 775/800 HP area. We won't be dynoing it, so we'll run it and see what it turns.
Even though my boat is running great (consistent 84/85), I think there is plenty left in the 575, and we are getting ready to find out. I have a custom hydraulic roller cam, Morel lifters, Dart/Eickert hard anodized aluminum heads (set up by Eickert for my cam), new 8.5 compression ratio pistons, and Cometic gaskets, new rings, bearings etc, and ECU recalibration ordered. We will do final ECU recalibrating on the water with an O2 sensor. I just had my blower rebuilt by TBS, so it's fresh and ready to go.
Probably will not be dynoing my motor either, but with our 17HP per MPH formula should be able to figure some #s. I'm hoping for 850ishHP, and low 90s. More is always welcome :rolleyes: :D . We'll see.
I'll get some pics as we progress, and keep you all posted.
Anybody else (Bob I know you are wrenching) have any interesting projects going on this winter?
I may have some heads, intake, cam/lifters, and props for sale if no one local buys them. I'll let you know.
Happy Holidays :drink: ,
Steve

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

After dynoing my engine I realized I wasn't turning enough RPM to utilize all the HP. I was turning 5500-5600 and that was 770-780 HP on the dyno. My best speed was 89, with consistent 85-86 in 95-100 temps. That should give you some pretty good baseline numbers to work with. I think it will take a solid 850 to run 90.

Jim Valako is porting my heads right now. I'm going to lower the compression to about 8.5:1, install a bigger cam and raise the boost. I should be around 900 HP when done. I'm hoping to have an honest 90 MPH boat under summer conditions.

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

Bob,
From your recent dyno #s, 900 ought to be easy!
Regards,
Steve

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

I'm remodeling a kitchen :eek:

Steve, are your heads being ported by Eickert?
I could be wrong but 850hp from 509ci, small blower (I think) and non ported heads sounds like it's pushing things pretty hard to get that hp.

Wish I had something to anticipate :evilb: (kinda :rolleyes: )

Keep us posted...
Dave

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

Dave,
These Darts (supposedly) are a proprietary Eickert casting, made from a set of heads that they ported, and sent back to Dart to use as master molds. I don't have plans to port them further at this time. I agree there is more HP to be found there too, but they should already outflow my GM/Merc perf heads dramatically. They have .300" raised exhast ports and several other advantantages over my iron heads, not to mention the weight savings.
We want to get this combination put together and see where we are. I think the increase in compression, better flowing lightweight heads, and roller cam will make for some good HP increases. This is the first time I have added any high performance internal hard parts. The motor is running pretty well as is, considering it's pretty much stock (flat tappet/7.5 comp/iron heads/etc) with a few bolt on and programming tweaks. Will keep you posted.
Are you doing anything to your Flame this winter?
Regards,
Steve

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

going to try and get my A/C in this year, ran out of time last year.
I was thinking about order 26 pitch lab prop , I can hit the rev limiter
when at half tank 2 ppl 75 degrees.

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

Should be a good addition at a reasonable price. I see them on here in the prop classifieds regularly.
Steve
OH YEAH..........
I sold my 30" Bravo yesterday. My Throttle UP blueprinted Hydromotive 28" P5-x is also for sale. Fastest and best all around propeller I've run on my boat. Perfect condition.
$1500 invested, will sell for $1200, or trade for even for a 30"
P5-X, blueprinted or not. Partial trade on a 32/33" Bravo 1 four blades considered.
Thanks,
Steve

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

Seems to me a 30 P5X may be a little big. I'm guessing you're going to need close to 6000 RPM to hit peak power. My boat ran 89 at 5600 with the labbed 29 with cup added. OF course if you can spin a 30 to 6000 you'll be flying!

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

Bob,
You may right. I don't have a horsepower increase to pitch increase ratio for our boats. Even if I did, I don't know how much HP these mods will net (est. 150), so I'm just guessing.
Maybe I'm just used to Mercury's 2 inch pitch increments.
I talked with Julie yesterday. Did you know they are no longer a Hydromotive dealer? I was hoping to work out a trade with them. Hopefully, they can get this resolved, because the Hydros with their blueprinting have been the $hit on our boats.
OK, I'll trade for a 29" P5-X too :D !
Thanks,
Steve

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

if they ever get 91 oct down at my lake I can get a whipple and a imco drive. I thinking I can still be close to 5000rpm.... tach is reading 5300 rpm when cuts out

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

I'm going to replace the tiny screws on the front passenger glove compartment.
Lost 'em again this summer.
Does that count?

I wanna go 90.

Dave

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

Steve,
The only thing I'm doing is working on some cold air intakes with Tom (R-Tech). My intake air temps were ~140 degrees in 85 degree weather :eek:
What's this with Hydro and Matt and Julie? :(

Dave

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

Dave,
On the Throttle Up/Hydromotive situation, let Julie explain that to you. I don't want to air their business on the forum.
Hopefully they can get it resolved for their customers' sake.
They DO have their new billet props available now, but as you can imagine they aren't cheap :eek: ..................
I have seen Tom's drawings on his cold air systems. I'm sure it will help, partcularly on the restrictive Nordic engine compartments. Remember, you heard it here 1st :D !
Happy Holidays,
Steve

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

The one pictured by Tom is actually for my boat. We just have to do a mirror image for the other side.
I've never seen any temp issues on the my old Heat (or other Heats) from the ECU runs I have performed. Keep in mind that we are running 950+hp at times in a Heat when dropping elevations and the air is not an issue so far :rolleyes:
On the Flame there is no air space at all for any temp dissipation and a lot of iron making for a lot of heat generation; a bad combo generating a +50* delta :eek:

I'll talk with Julie, she has a set of my props so I'll be chatting with her :cool:

Dave

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

Bob, Dave and Guys,
I just checked out a web site run by BAM Marine that a friend turned me on to: www.go-fast.com click on "Knowledge Base".
It has a boat speed calculator, like I was mentioning above.
They have recommended constants that you'll need to employ to use the formula. I found 227 (not that efficient by their scale, BTW) to be accurate for my boat.
I used 5000 lbs. "wet" weight/700HP/227/and came up with an accurate 85MPH.
I used this to project 800HP to 91MPH (as you estimated), and 850HP to 94.
Then you can use the advanced prop calculator to figure out what pitch and RPM you'll need to attain those #s.
With my existing 13% slip, I'll need to turn a 30" P5 5600 to get 92, or a 29" P5 5800 to also get 92, which is more likely.
So you are right again.
This is great information. Basically, you find out where you are with your existing HP, and then you can find out what you'll need to get to your target speed.
Regards,
Steve

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

I think 5000 lbs is a bit conservative on weight, unless you are one skinny dude :D You've got to count all the stuff you've added plus fluids and people. You've got 500 lbs of fuel if it's full, not counting cold beer. I figure an average test load with 2 people to be about 5500 lbs for my boat.

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

For your comparisons...
Last runs with P5X 30 with extra cup yeilds 93.1-93.3 at 5850rpm (Lake Powell 3600 feet/full tanks/3 people/70 degrees)

Bob's P5X 29 91.3 at 5850-5900 bumping rev limiter (Pineview Lake, 5000 feet/ 3/4 fuel / 3 people / 75 degrees)

Bravo 32 with as much cup as possible 97.1 at 5850-5900 hitting rev limiter (Lake Havasu, 650 feet / ~90 degrees/ 3/4 fuel / 3 people)

Keep in mind this hull is seemingly faster than most Heats (A Nordic mystery :cool: )

Dave

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

Bob,
I haven't suffered from the skinnies in years, and what makes you think I drink beer :rolleyes: :drink: ..............
I may be able to put the weight thing to rest. I'm having my Myco (maybe a little lighter than the 3 axle Nordic) tandem axle trailer bunks recarpeted this week. There is a recycling center nearby their shop, where I used to weigh my race boats. I'll weigh the trailer, and then go back and weigh the boat with trailer and do the math.
Regards,
Steve

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

OK Guys,
The numbers are in...........I weighed the boat AND trailer today. They already had my bunks recarpeted, and boat back on the trailer, so I didn't get to weigh them seperately.
The entire rig weighed 6,920 lbs. Not too bad......since I couldn't weigh the trailer separately, I called Myco, gave them my trailer VIN and model #s. They say it weighs 1200#s. They should know, but I think it's heavier than that.
So here's the math, if Myco knows their business (?)........
6920 - 1200 = 5720 (fuel/jackets/cockpit cover/no people, cooler or porta potty). I have approximatley 50 gallons of fuel on board = 300 lbs. So the boat weighs 5420 lbs with some accessories?
Oh well, until I can weigh the trailer, that's all I've got. I still think the trailer weighs in the 1800 lb. range, which would make the boat weigh a more reasonable 4800 lbs. Any way you cut it, that's heavier than the factory's 4610 lbs.
Regards,
Steve

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

Factory shows 4610 for the 28. One of my customers weighed his open bow 28 and it came in at 6880 with a Nordic triple axle trailer and about 1/2 fuel.

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

Bob,
That's interesting. Just 40lbs. different than my weight, so we have a consistent 6900#s average total gross with 50% fuel. Any way to find out what the Nordic trailer weighs? I just emailed Myco to get an exact # for mine. No way this thing weighs 1200#s.
Taking 6880 - 40 gallons @ 6#s per gallon (240) = 6640 - 4610 = 2030 #s for the tri-axle Nordic trailer. That sounds much more reasonable to me.
Steve

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

I think the boats vary quite a bit in weight from one to the other also. The published weight is ball park. I also don't know what engine that is with. I think a 454. Fuel weighs more like 6.6 lbs/gal I believe. Then you've got oil and about 5 gallons of coolant. Also, I've always heard that boats absorb water and gain a significant amount of weight throughout their life. Don't know if that's really true or not. Having that blower and intercooler adds probably 100 lbs over a 500 efi also. It all adds up!

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

Bob,
I just sent all my #s to Myco for a revised est. The fellow I spoke with that gave me the 1200# is an accountant, not an engineer.
MY #s should be a more realistic 4610 (boat) + 300ish (fuel)
+ 100 (jackets/etc) = 5010. 6920#s - 5010#s = 1910 lbs. for my trailer.
I came up with 2030#s for the Nordic tri-axle, an additional 120 lbs. That makes sense too. I think we are getting close.
Glad I'm adding aluminum heads :D !
Regards,
Steve

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

Bob must have forgot.....I took my Nordic 3 Axle trailer - the Boat to a scale and the Trailer by itself came in at 1850LBS that including my Spare as well.....So there you have it

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

That 1800-1900 lb range sounds much better. I had to weigh my trailer and it having 1 axle less and slightly shorter, weighed 1650 without a spare tire at the time.

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

Yep Bent, I forgot. Now we know for sure. So the published weight numbers are pretty close. Running weight is around 5300 with 1 average person.

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

Thanks Guys!
Steve

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

Don`t feel bad bob, I have that same problem its called old

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

The fun has begun:rolleyes: ...........
The machine work is done on my block and the parts are in.
Reassembly has begun.
1st 2 pics are the old 7.5 dish top piston, and the new 8.75:D !
Pics,
Regards,
Steve

Re: Heat projects for the down season
 

Dart Pro 1s hard coat anodized
Thanks to Eric and Troy @ EB Marine.
Steve

getting close:D .........................
and there's another one....................
Steve

Steve,
Looking good. Wish you all the best with the updated powerplant. Let me know if I can help you in any way.
Eddie

going to Nashville this weekend
 

I'm going up to goodlettsville (next to Nashville) this wkend so my brother can powdercoat my valve covers. He already did my flame arrestors so I can bring everything back with me Monday. I'll be driving my 1 ton. so if anyone needs hauling done, let me know. (Raleigh NC-Nashville TN)

Thanks Eddie,
We will have it on the dyno as soon as the weather warms up. Eric thinks (and I agree) the cold water in their water reservoir may make tuning the fuel curve difficult, since summer temps here are way warmer. Probably best to have the temp sensors nearer to normal operating conditions.
I remember when we put the intercooler on it a couple of years ago in December, it was acting cold natured (at idle)until we put the idle water pressure cutoff valve on.
Regards,
Steve

Casey,
Great looking motors man:cool: ........I would hook up with you guys:drink: , but I have a trade show in Atlanta this weekend.
Have a safe trip. You're brother sounds like a great mechanic.
Regards,
Steve

heat project
 

Hey Steve, how many hours were on your motor when you freshened it? What did the bearings look like and what type of oil and oil change intervals?.......Casey

PS what type of sea strainer is mounted on the back of your motor? I cant wait to step on deck for a ride!

Casey,
125 hours the 1st time, bearings and rings were good. The head gaskets were not. For some reason Mercury uses the GM gray graphite type head gaskets even on their blue motors, and they looked pretty bad. This time at @ 395 hours, bearings were fine, gaskets OK (Fel-Pros), some wear on the rings and cylinders, easily honed out. Going back with even better parts (Cometic) this time, so I have my fingers crossed:rolleyes: .
For engine oil, I used Royal Purple 20W50 for years, but switched to Amsoil in 2006. I change everything (engine/drive/blower) @ 25 hours.
The strainer is a Teague, has a hairline crack on the lid, but it's been OK other than that. You're up for a ride after we finish up. Probably another month to go.
Regards,
Steve

One word on head gaskets, blowers and aluminum heads....
COMETIC:D

Sounds like alls going well!

Steve,
I didn't think you were dynoing it. If you are, there is no reason that you can't get it to operating temp. If you are going to just tune it in the boat, then I would wait until it warms up, unless Eric knows how to tune around the cold temps.
Like I said before, if I can help you, don't hesitate to call. See ya, Eddie

Eddie,
We are going to dyno it. I think we can get a good fuel curve on the dyno, and maybe do a final tweak on the water. It will also help me re-prop the boat to know what RPM to shoot for.
I am also curious to see what kind of HP and torque this combination will produce.
We won't hesitate to call you if we stub our toes:rolleyes: ....
Thanks for the offer:D !
Steve